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24th December 2016, 04:20 AM | #41 |
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Then what is a good reason?
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We should be asking questions about why the government is spending so much money on solving this one case. That money could be used for so many other purposes. I wonder how many lives have been lost because money was spent on this case rather than health care or improving safety on the roads or educating children? Or maybe spend it solving recent crimes so that there are fewer unsolved crimes? So far no attempt has been made to answer the question. |
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24th December 2016, 04:53 AM | #42 |
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ftfy.
I am all for the effective use of resources but murder must surely be the exception. We must always be willing to vigorously pursue a murderer and bring them to justice - no matter how old the crime. The families of these young women are still very much alive and suffering today. Do you want to be the one to tell them that the deaths of their loved ones don't matter any more? |
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24th December 2016, 01:31 PM | #43 |
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Seeing that the only answer has been no better than a religious answer maybe I should give my answer.
It is all about getting good publicity. Solving a recent crime makes everyone feel good and gives good publicity to the police, but solving a cold case like this is even better, so even more money and resources should be spent on cold cases, even at the expense of recent cases. So you can see asking the question is not trying to argue cold cases should not be resourced, but it turns out the answer is that we should give unlimited resources to such cases. |
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24th December 2016, 02:10 PM | #44 |
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24th December 2016, 02:59 PM | #45 |
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Why we punish and why we should punish are indeed very interesting questions. It's all well and good to seek utility in punishment but most if not all of our evolved social constructs do not bear close examination. And I dont think we should dismiss out of hand our inherent sense of justice in cases like this. The victims often, and the wider community consitantly, demand strong punishment for the taking away of futures of the victims. Mostly a topic for a desicated thread if you want to take it further.
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24th December 2016, 10:56 PM | #46 |
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You've been given a few. Justice and closure for the living victims would be my picks. Finding the other victim/s body would be another. Do you think the women he raped have gotten over it now? Should they not have justice?
No, but the crime still was. How much money? Did they divert funds that were not supposed to be used for cold cases? I wonder if your ponderings have any basis in real world happenings? You don't see the irony in that statement? Regardless of age, a solved crime reduces the number of unsolved crimes. You see how that works? Which one again? Your original post in this thread, that was labelled 'ridiculous' was based on a whole lot of 'what if's'. What if he hasn't broken the law in 20 years? What if he has? What if there are more bodies? What if he travelled for his hobby? What if he raped or killed someone last month? Or last year? Or 10 years ago? What is your suggested statute of limitations? Did you read the article linked in the OP? The police commissioner says that the task force into this case has branched out to included a number of other cases. What is your problem with police doing what they are employed to do? |
24th December 2016, 11:52 PM | #47 |
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Well said Shiner.
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25th December 2016, 12:29 AM | #48 |
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Ees just misunderstood thats all. If investigations show he did murder them but hasn't committed a crime in the last 20 years he should get an order of Australia medal and an official appology for being harrassed for being such an inspiration in turning his life around.
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28th December 2016, 01:28 PM | #49 |
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Brilliant fix. But you mean to tell rjh01 that making sure a victim has healthcare after an attack is not far more important that making sure there is no attack to begin with??
I haven't had a chance to delve into this one yet but the consensus on this is that they most certainly have the right guy? |
28th December 2016, 02:45 PM | #50 |
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I was going to let this thread pass, but since you bumped it...
I asked a question, expecting a quick and easy answer, but all I got was hostile answers that were not very good. For example justice is one answer. But that word is rather vague. Others have suggested that the question implies a certain answer. There is a certain type of question that does so and that is called a loaded question. But my question is not a loaded question. I suggest the answer is what people think is the correct answer but cannot admit it so they say instead I have said it. Please check the mirror. There are some good answers to the question, but none of you have given them to me in the thread. Says a lot about this forum and its members when the answers to a question is either hostile or vague. As for the person's guilt, he has not been found guilty yet. His trial has not even began. He might plead guilty, or the evidence may be strong against him. But my money is that it would be an expensive trial and the outcome uncertain. |
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28th December 2016, 02:51 PM | #51 |
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28th December 2016, 03:54 PM | #52 |
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I'm pretty sure that this has not been given unlimited resources. That's why it went into the the Cold Case pile i.e. the back burner, when they couldn't find any more leads and the Detectives had to get on with the next recent case. Also, this is a triple homicide. If it had been for a traffic violation no one would have cared.
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28th December 2016, 04:15 PM | #53 |
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Checked my mirror. Were you confused by my reply? I asked you a bunch of questions to help me understand the point you were trying to make. A couple were loaded. The majority were genuine. You didn't reply to any of what I asked, yet you want to imply an agenda for me now.
Please explain my answer for me. Apparently I'm unable to admit something. |
28th December 2016, 06:40 PM | #54 |
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28th December 2016, 06:46 PM | #55 |
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I wouldn't have thought that healthcare for a murder victim was all that important.
Rjh01's position seems to be that at some point we should stop pursuing cold cases - no matter how serious the crime - because the money could be better spent elsewhere. Rjh01 even goes further and suggests that in the event that a murder suspect is ultimately uncovered years later in a cold case, it would not be worth while prosecuting the suspect because of the elapse of time. Whether you subscribe to this POV is largely a matter of opinion but rjh01 views non support as a "hostile reaction". The police have uncovered DNA evidence that points to a suspect who already has prior convictions for rape. Because this is such a high profile case, it might be difficult to pick a jury that won't convict automatically. However, in WA, an accused may ask for a judge only trial if they believe that a jury can't be objective. |
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28th December 2016, 07:23 PM | #56 |
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I do not mind being told I am wrong and here are some good reasons for prosecuting the suspect. I do take exception to replies (yes, that means more than one member) like the one below which dismiss the question without the member showing that they have even thought about it.
I think the answer below is about the best answer I can get. After reading this thread I agree with it 100%. I am unlikely to post again in this thread in the short term. I apologize for not realising the question is such a hot-button issue. |
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28th December 2016, 08:36 PM | #57 |
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28th December 2016, 09:05 PM | #58 |
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29th December 2016, 01:18 AM | #59 |
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If I may put questions back to you?
How long would one need to be crime free after a murder for punishment to be no longer 'valid'? You choose twenty years, but if it was ten or five years would that be good enough? Should it matter the number or type of murders? Twenty years for an adult? Ten for a child murder? Add five years for sexual assault? Thirty for a police man murdered in the course of his or her duty? What about a racially motivated crime? If the person ran the gas chambers in belsen? What quality of life during the twenty years? Should a speeding ticket result in prosecution, or would it need to be drunk driving, or a rape? Supposing he was suspected of further crimes but had been more careful and the police had been unable to prove it and the 'cold case' is the chance to put away a serial offender just as tax evasion was the method of arresting Al Capone? If it was coming up to the twenty year limit when should it be? Arrest before twenty years? Brought to court or convicted. Would it matter if the defence dragged out the case so the twenty year limit was passed and the case had to be dropped. The problem is this all becomes very arbitrary. I would say the simplest rule is that if the offender is alive and able to plead (i.e. not demented, in a coma), then they should be charged and tried. I can see that there might be an argument that if the victim wished the case not to be pursued after twenty years then this might be grounds for not pursuing the case (remembering that the particular case may merely be the one of a series of crimes and there may be a public interest in pursuing the case regardless of any individuals wish). I can see an argument for a criminal who makes a confession after e.g. thirty 'blameless' years pleads guilty and fully co-operates, usually receiving a non custodial sentence. I also agree that in a rational society there might be an agreed limit to how much to spend on investigating a crime. Indeed there might be an argument for having murder insurance which would pay out for the investigation, and investigatory agencies could compete for the murder as it would be income generating. |
29th December 2016, 03:28 AM | #60 |
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Planigale - I agree these are good questions and points. Pity they are only now being asked. It was the sort of post I was looking for when I asked my questions. Instead of which I just got mostly garbage. As a result I will not make any attempt to answer them. Sorry.
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29th December 2016, 04:43 AM | #61 |
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29th December 2016, 04:49 AM | #62 |
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29th December 2016, 05:47 AM | #63 |
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There is nothing more mature than starting up a game with the neighborhood and then taking your ball and going home when the game isn't going the way you want it to. You got good answers in my opinion but didn't like that some of us would find it maybe slightly offensive that it would be suggested that victims and their families simply be forgotten and move on because you deemed them too old an not cost effective.
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29th December 2016, 09:21 PM | #64 |
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25th July 2018, 02:03 AM | #65 |
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Bradley Edwards has now been charged with all three murders and additional offences, and committed to trial.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-2...lings/10025836 |
25th July 2018, 02:21 AM | #66 |
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19th February 2019, 05:51 AM | #67 |
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Looks to me like they've got him bang to rights, based on the DNA evidence.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national/...19-p50yqg.html |
22nd February 2019, 10:38 PM | #68 |
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10th November 2019, 05:26 AM | #69 |
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It looks as though the Claremont murders trial is finally due to start in a couple of weeks after various delays related to new evidence.
It looks as though the defence will be challenging the DNA evidence. Prosecutors just won a last minute bid to use new statements and evidence in rebuttal. Edwards has now pleaded guilty to two attacks (but not the murders). |
24th November 2019, 04:51 PM | #70 |
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I don’t want to say I’m looking forward to this trial (starting tomorrow) as it sounds ghoulish, but I want it to finally happen and be over after all the delays. At the time of these murders, I was living in Shenton Park, where one of the murder victims also lived, close to Karrakatta cemetery and Hollywood hospital where attacks took place. I was a postgraduate student at UWA, with the main entrance to the campus on Stirling Highway where two of the murder victims were abducted. I didn’t know any of the victims, but knew people who did. The level of paranoia at times was almost unbelievable. People constantly told me I was mad just to cross Stirling Highway at night to get to the bus stop. I was already going through a lot of stress at the time and it was hard to not be affected. Then there were the absurd and prolonged attempts to go after the wrong man, with everyone knowing who the suspect was and where he lived. At the time I moved to the UK in 2000 I believe poor Lance Williams was still under surveillance.
The trial is set to take around six months (less than the original nine as Edwards has pleaded guilty to some charges). Apparently the defence will challenge the DNA evidence on the grounds of contamination and/or casual contact. I hope the families are able to hold up through all of it. |
24th November 2019, 06:37 PM | #71 |
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I saw some discussion earlier in the thread (in between the bickering) about the question of whether it was worth spending a lot of money and effort on such an old case. This prompted me to recall that we have one of our own coming up in Scotland maybe in the New Year.
In 1976, the year I passed my finals at university (I'm now retired), Renee MacRae and her three-year-old son Andrew disappeared in suspicious circumstances. The chief (and indeed I believe the only) suspect was Bill MacDowell, Renee's lover and Andrew's natural father, but there was never enough evidence to charge him. For some reason there was a flurry of activity relating to the case earlier this year, and the police drained an old quarry at Culloden which I believe had been searched by divers back at the time of the original investigation. If they found anything they didn't tell the media. Yes they found a child's push-chair but that turned out to have nothing to do with the case. It was reported that they were taking samples of the mud at the bottom of the quarry to test for DNA, but the only report of results from that that I read was that they'd found DNA from various animal species. But then, suddenly, in September, it was announced that Bill MacDowell had been charged with the two murders and would be going on trial in due course. Bill MacDowell was about 34 at the time of the murders. He's 77 now. I don't think he is suspected of having murdered anyone else in the intervening 43 years. I'm not sure if this is some sort of record. I'll be fascinated to see what is revealed at the trial and I'll probably start a thread on the case once it starts. However I just wanted to compare the timescale of the case this thread is about with the MacRae murders to demonstrate that 20-odd years isn't really all that long considering. |
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26th November 2019, 03:21 AM | #72 |
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Judge only trial
Bradley Robert Edwards is being tried by a judge alone and no jury - something which can be requested in WA law:
Quote:
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26th November 2019, 09:32 AM | #73 |
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1st December 2019, 04:10 AM | #74 |
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Doesn't this depth of detail in recollections of events over two decades a go seem a bit unlikely?
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1st December 2019, 05:56 AM | #75 |
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Dates might be pinpointed through reference to events and the use of diaries, but obviously details in memories are the result of reconstruction.
Brigita Cook claims to have seen Edwards the morning after Sarah Spiers disappeared: "On Friday Brigita Cook recalled seeing Edwards about five hours after Spiers was last sighted. He turned up early at the Cook home. She believed Edwards got a lift with her husband into work that day, but did not leave a car at her house so he may have walked to their house or got dropped off." (from The Australian, November 30th). Although she kept meticulous diaries, memory details could be constructed by inference based on these. |
1st December 2019, 11:36 AM | #76 |
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No not really. I was once asked in court (by a supercilious silk trying to score points and discredit my evidence) where I had been on a particular date, some eleven years earlier; I could state this exactly, including the names of fourteen witnesses, sources or corroboration at cetera.
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6th February 2020, 02:33 PM | #77 |
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It appears that as expected, the defence is trying to discredit the DNA evidence on the basis that the DNA found on Ciara Glennon's fingernails got there by contamination.
So far I haven't seen any evidence that samples from the woman Edwards confessed to raping were processed around the same time as the fingernail samples. The tactic seems to be more focused on attacking general forensic practice at the time, and procedures at the lab where the samples were processed. |
5th May 2020, 04:43 AM | #78 |
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The prosecution case has finished or is about to finish, ending with the video of the initial interview with Edwards where he denied all charges including those he later confessed to.
Not sure what the defence will do. It does seem that the case will rest on whether they create a reasonable doubt about DNA contamination. A forensic scientist testified that it is 'very unlikely' the evidence was contaminated. It does seem that there is evidence of many errors and incidences of accidental contamination at the lab, but no specific evidence that the sample from Ciara Glennon was ever examined close to the same time as the sample from the rape victim. The prosecution also called in 'homicide pattern experts' to give evidence regarding the murder of Sarah Spiers, since her body was never found. |
25th May 2020, 06:19 AM | #79 |
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Cold case contamination of Claremont DNA samples
Jane Taupin, the author of a number of books on DNA forensics and the coauthor of a book on the forensics of clothing, wrote, "The possibility of the crucial fingernail DNA evidence being contaminated has been raised by the defence at the start of the trial. Four other exhibits in the matter were shown to be contaminated with DNA from PathWest scientists. An intimate swab from the second deceased Jane Rimmer was analysed by PathWest in 1996 with no male DNA result, but later found in 2017 by Cellmark to have an almost complete profile of a male Pathwest scientist involved in preparing the evidence. An intimate swab from Ciara Glennon also yielded an almost complete profile of another PathWest scientist involved in testing the exhibit between 1997 and 2001. Fingernail samples from Jane Rimmer were found by Cellmark to have a DNA profile of another PathWest scientist who was not involved in testing but standing nearby. Two DNA results from branches at the crime scene of Jane Rimmer tested in 2003 years later yielded DNA of another PathWest scientist who examined them."
Ordinarily fingernail DNA evidence is highly useful, in part because so many studies have been done on it. Based on the case of Gregory Turner, I would say that when a sample is contaminated with a forensic worker's own DNA, it was by definition mishandled and should not be considered as evidence. The Australian cases of Farah Jama and Jaidyn Leskie should are cautionary tales with respect to DNA contamination. I am not offering an opinion on the overall innocence or guilt of the accused. EDT "Earlier, Mr Bagdonavicius was questioned about the role he played in selecting and preparing a series of "negative control blanks" to be sent to New Zealand, where additional forensic testing was being carried out on the evidence by an agency called ESR. The "blanks" were supposed to be control samples that did not contain any traces of DNA, however, four out of the 21 samples tested at ESR were contaminated." abc Here is an article that is skeptical of contamination in this case, although it lists one counterexample to its thesis. |
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25th May 2020, 06:50 PM | #80 |
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The flight of the helix
"Prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo emphatically insisted in her opening address that "DNA within a particular sample did not just fly around a laboratory" — a point reinforced by PathWest scientist Martin Blooms in his testimony last month...There is also another documented instance of contamination of a sample by a person who had not come into contact with it. This is another twig from Ms Rimmer's burial site which was found to contain the DNA from the teenage victim of a totally unrelated crime in 2002. It turns out samples from that crime were processed five days before samples from the twig were examined, in the same area of PathWest and using the same batch of single-use sample tubes later used for the Rimmer samples." link
Especially when dealing with low levels of DNA, the problem of DNA traveling within a lab is something that is taken into account in the design of the laboratory. I wrote a blog entry some years ago which touched upon this point. |
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