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12th November 2020, 08:10 PM | #521 |
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negative result in the test for blood
Luminol is only a presumptive test, and one that gives a wider range of false positives than other presumptive tests, such as the Kastle-Meyer test. The Kastle-Meyer test gives false positives in the presence of substances that catalyze the same reaction as a peroxidase. Luminol reacts in the presence of catalysts but also in the presence of oxidants. A positive result from a presumptive test indicates the possibility that a substance is present. A positive result is a reason to move on to a confirmatory test. This is (almost literally) Forensic Chemistry 101. McHrozni mentioned some of these problems in the first thread, in comment #3553. Academic references available upon request.
Mr. Ertl agreed under cross examination that the reaction was faint. The claim that it lit up like a Christmas tree is, putting it charitably, an exaggeration, perhaps originating with Mr. Kratz's closing remarks. From what I can gather Mr. Ertl also acknowledged that he tested for blood and that the result was negative. A quick perusal of the trial testimony leaves me with the impression that Mr. Ertl used the phenolphthalein test (the Kastle-Meyer) test. This test is capable of detecting blood that has been diluted by a factor of 1000 or more, although it is still only a presumptive test. Only a positive result from a confirmatory test is conclusive evidence for the presence of blood. |
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12th November 2020, 08:27 PM | #522 |
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My reference to the Luminol test is in regards to the photographs taken after the chemical was sprayed on the garage floor. If memory serves, 1 of those photographs was included in MAM. It's important to note that Dassey told his mother that he helped his uncle clean the garage and that bleach stains were clearly evident in photographs taken of Dassey's jeans.
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12th November 2020, 09:08 PM | #523 |
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When was the luminol applied
What was the date that the luminol was applied?*
As I have noted elsewhere, Dassey's jeans should be examined under a microscope. This can differentiate between bleach stains and discoloration due to abrasion. There is a good pair of photographs that illustrate this point in a book coauthored by Jane Taupin. EDT *I believe that it was on 6 November. If so, then it is quite unlikely that bleach was responsible for the luminol reaction. Bleach loses its ability to react with luminol in about eight hours (PMID: 15966054; DOI: 10.1002/bio.865). |
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15th November 2020, 02:07 PM | #524 |
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Brendan Dassey’s jeans
Quote:
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15th November 2020, 08:14 PM | #525 |
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Repeat after me: luminol is a presumptive test, luminol...
Brendan's faulty interrogation compromised his memory IMO. I take his subsequent statements, whether exculpatory or inculpatory, with generous grains of salt. For the sake of argument let us accept that there are bleach stains on his jeans. They cannot be dated by any means known to me. There are multiple explanations for such stains; they are not probative.
What I would like to know is what the pro-guilt commenters think caused the luminol-positive area to react, and why? |
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16th November 2020, 05:08 PM | #526 |
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I just read the State of Wisconsin's 5/27/20 response to Zellner's special brand of hyperbole. She is seeking an evidentiary hearing to present her unique mixture of supposition, innuendo, speculation, and defense funded expert opinions. I found the State's reply to be concise, thorough, and aggressive in rebutting all of Zellner's flimsy claims. I particularly enjoyed their commentary on page 53 regarding Zellner's attempts to paint Ryan Hillegas as being the "real" murderer.
https://www.workwithkz.com/media/fil...respondent.pdf |
16th November 2020, 05:56 PM | #527 |
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Chrismas in Manitowoc
JTF,
What I would like to know is what the pro-guilt commenters such as yourself think caused the luminol-positive area to react, and why? Also are you now willing to admit that "lit up like a Christmas tree" was misleading nonsense? If not, why not? |
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16th November 2020, 06:01 PM | #528 |
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"unique mixture of supposition, innuendo, speculation". Everything one shouldn't find on a board purporting to be a sceptics board yet it is abundant in this thread and others. No wonder Randi totally and completely rejected anything to do with this board as he saw that it was a haven for specious, illogical, and purely argumentative conjecture. |
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16th November 2020, 08:05 PM | #529 |
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Again, my reference was to the photographs taken of this particular area of Avery's garage. If you felt mislead, I apologize, but the photographs clearly depict a glowing portion of the garage floor. You nor I have any expertise in determining the reason or reasons for the luminol reaction, yet it appears that even the prosecution/defense experts didn't have a definitive explanation for this reaction. What is not in dispute is that the day after Halbach's disappearance, Avery took the day off from work, he asked his nephew to assist him with cleaning the garage floor with bleach, and that the jeans worn by Dassey contained several bleach stains. A ballistics expert for the prosecution matched a bullet found in Avery's garage to a rifle located on the wall over Avery's bed, Halbach's DNA was found on the bullet, and so on and so forth.
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17th November 2020, 02:56 AM | #530 |
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17th November 2020, 07:04 AM | #531 |
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not bleach and not bleach-cleaned blood
JTF,
We know that the luminol reaction was not due to bleach (Creamer J.I., et al., Luminescence 2005; 20: 411–413, the citation that was previously given). When known blood on concrete is cleaned with bleach, the phenolphthalein test (the Kastle-Meyer test) is still positive. See Table 1, bottom entry in Gross AM, Harris KA, Kaldun GL. "The effect of luminol on presumptive tests and DNA analysis using the polymerase chain reaction." J Forensic Sci 1999; 44(4):837–840. It is very difficult to see how bleach could destroy iron ions, and first-row transition metal ions often give false positives in presumptive tests for blood. Yet in the Avery garage the K-M test gave a negative result. Therefore, we know that the luminol-positive area was not likely to be bleached-cleaned blood. Please speak for yourself when it comes to expertise. Also, expertise is not the same as detailed knowledge. I agree that the substance in question has not yet been identified. |
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18th November 2020, 04:54 AM | #532 |
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18th November 2020, 05:38 PM | #533 |
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Avery's Garage
The forensics sweep of Avery's garage and subsequent investigative efforts resulted in the following conclusions.
A portion of the concrete floor reacted to the chemical Luminol. This chemical produces a glowing effect which indicates the presence of human blood, animal blood, some bleaches, and metals. Subsequent testing was unable to produce a definitive source for the Luminol reaction, but analysts were able to determine that the concrete floor had been cleaned with bleach and pain thinner. Brendan Dassey admitted to his mother and investigators that he assisted his uncle in cleaning the garage floor with bleach and paint thinner. Investigators subsequently collected and photographed jeans worn by Dassey. The front of Dassey's jeans showed signs of apparent bleach splash patterns. Dassey also constructed a drawing of his uncle's garage depicting Halbach, Avery, and Dassey in their locations when Teresa was murdered via gunshot(s) to the head. Two bullet fragments were found in the garage and one of those bullets bores traces of Halbach's DNA. State crime lab firearms expert William Newhouse concluded that this bullet had been fired from a rifle found hanging over Avery’s bed. Newhouse linked ammunition found in Avery's desk drawers to this bullet fragment. |
18th November 2020, 06:29 PM | #534 |
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JTF,
As I have explained previously, what you posted is highly misleading. The K-M test is more specific (in the statistical sense of the word) than luminol is, yet it is still only a presumptive test. Even a positive result from a KM test would not demand the conclusion that blood were present; that would require a confirmatory test. Yet the garage gave a negative K-M test. It has been known since at least 1999 that the K-M test can detect blood that has been cleaned with bleach. See attached image, which is a portion of Table 1 from the paper by Gross and coworkers that I previously cited. The first three columns refer to the phenolphthalein test and are B, W, and D, respectively. We do not know what the luminol-positive substance is, but we know what it is not. If you wish to read up on forensic testing for the presence of blood, I suggest: Forensic Science Reform Protecting the Innocent Elsevier, 2017. ISBN: 978-0-12-802719-6, Edited by Wendy J. Koen and C. Michael Bowers Chapter 8: Presumptive and Confirmatory Blood Testing, Christopher Halkides and Kim Lott. |
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19th November 2020, 12:46 AM | #535 |
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You certainly have the right to give a hand wave to the talking points in my post, but your mix of pot shots with selective commentary (e.g., Luminol issue only), provides me with ample motivation to put forth the following challenge(s).
1) Please point out why the following statement in my post is "highly misleading." "Subsequent testing was unable to produce a definitive source for the Luminol reaction, but analysts were able to determine that the concrete floor had been cleaned with bleach and pain thinner." 2) Please point out why the following statement(s) in my post are "highly misleading." "Brendan Dassey admitted to his mother and investigators that he assisted his uncle in cleaning the garage floor with bleach and paint thinner. Investigators subsequently collected and photographed jeans worn by Dassey. The front of Dassey's jeans showed signs of apparent bleach splash patterns." 3) Please point out why the following statement(s) in my post are "highly misleading." "Dassey constructed a drawing of his uncle's garage depicting Halbach, Avery, and Dassey in their locations when Teresa was murdered via gunshot(s) to the head. Two bullet fragments were found in the garage and one of those bullets bore traces of Halbach's DNA. State crime lab firearms expert William Newhouse concluded that this bullet had been fired from a rifle found hanging over Avery’s bed. Newhouse linked ammunition found in Avery's desk drawers to this bullet fragment." |
19th November 2020, 01:30 AM | #536 |
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19th November 2020, 03:18 PM | #537 |
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Beginning on page 62 of the following link... https://jenniferjslate.files.wordpre...ipt_3.1.06.pdf
... the issue of Brendan witnessing his uncle murder Teresa in the garage via gunshot(s) to the head is broached. WIEGERT: All right. I'm just going to come out and ask you. Who shot her in the head? DASSEY: He did. FASSBENDER: Then why didn't you tell us that? DASSEY: Cuz I didn't think of it. FASSBENDER: Now you remember it? (Brendan nods "yes"). Tell us about that then. DASSEY: That he shot her with his .22. WIEGERT: You were there though? DASSEY: Yeah. |
21st November 2020, 01:14 PM | #538 |
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"Cuz I didn't think of it" is a remarkable oversight for Brendan.
It suggests to me he is still trying to please the cops and get home to the wrestling show . How could Steve, with a witness, persuade Teresa to be shot? Brendan it seems should have recalled quite a lot of detail once on a roll of disclosure. |
21st November 2020, 03:37 PM | #539 |
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Richard Ofshe
"After watching the Dassey tapes, [Richard] Ofshe believes Dassey was giving a forced confession.
“I see something that almost makes one ashamed to be an American,” Ofshe said. “It’s that bad. I’ve studied the transcripts… they threatened him. They told him there are people who want to charge him and we are your shield from those people. … ‘We are going to help you.’ They tell him repeatedly as long as Steven told you to do this, you didn’t do anything wrong… And then through that they get him to say anything that they want him to say.”" SNIP “Why didn’t you tell us that?” the investigator asked. “Because I couldn’t think of it,” he responded. [Laura] Nirider said, that “Any fair reading of that sequence is that Brendan is guessing. He’s guessing in an attempt to placate his interrogators.” ABC. Richard Ofshe is associated with the Marty Tankleff and Norfolk Four cases of false confession. |
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21st November 2020, 04:05 PM | #540 |
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If Avery is innocent then this damning evidence needs to be
That also means his big cleanup in the garage, large bonfire in the burn pit (complete with human remains), and having a meeting with Teresa Halbach earlier are all mere coincidences that the cops took advantage of. Of course they also had the remarkable luck to find her dead body and vehicle in locations that made it easy to frame him - or did they plan it all out ahead and actually caused these 'random' events to coincide? How did the cops manage to get Teresa's hacked up body into the burn pit without Steven noticing, and how did they make sure he would set fire to it? How they fake all the other evidence? And who actually killed her - was it them, someone they paid to do the deed, or an unrelated murder that just happened to sync up with their plans? Perhaps one day the cops will come clean and tell us how they did it... “When you have eliminated the evidence, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” It's simply elementary. |
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21st November 2020, 04:19 PM | #541 |
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"A Path Forward" on tool mark analysis
Regarding point 1, I have demonstrated with citations from the forensic literature that the substance was not bleach, nor was it a bleach-cleaned bloodstain. You have been told this repeatedly, and your response is to offer an insult instead of an explanation. And this was after you were called out for exaggerating the strength of the luminol reaction. Can you cite forensic evidence demonstrating that bleach and paint thinner were used? If you cannot, then it isn't worth discussing.
Regarding point three, The National Research Council's 2008 report Ballistic Imaging stated, “A significant amount of research would be needed to scientifically determine the degree to which firearms-related toolmarks are unique or even to quantitatively characterize the probability of uniqueness.” The 2009 NAS Report “Strengthening Forensic Science: A Path Forward” concluded in part, “Toolmark and firearms analysis suffers from the same limitations discussed above for impression evidence. Because not enough is known about the variabilities among individual tools and guns, we are not able to specify how many points of similarity are necessary for a given level of confidence in the result. Sufficient studies have not been done to understand the reliability and repeatability of the methods.” In 2011 Paul Giannelli wrote, "In a different passage, the [NAS] report remarked that “[m]uch forensic evidence ‘including, for example, bite marks and firearm and toolmark identifica- tions’ is introduced in criminal trials without any meaningful scientific validation, determination of error rates, or reliability testing to explain the lim- its of the discipline.” (Id. at 107-08.)" In 2017 Sarah L. Cooper wrote, “However, overall, Strengthening concluded that ‘The scientific knowledge base for tool mark and firearms analysis is fairly limited.’” She went on to say, “The NAS [National Academy of Sciences] commented that ‘[t]his AFTE [association of firearms and tookmark examiners] document, which is the best guidance available for the field of tool mark identification, does not even consider, let alone address questions regarding variability, repeatability, or the number of correlations needed to achieve a given degree of confidence.’” Thus Mr. Newhouse's claim of uniqueness is unscientific. Maybe someday the pro-guilt commenters will stop offering up rose fertilizer while claiming that it smells like roses. |
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22nd November 2020, 08:07 AM | #542 |
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22nd November 2020, 08:25 AM | #543 |
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22nd November 2020, 08:45 AM | #544 |
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Newhouse fired the same ammunition from Avery's rifle and compared them to the bullet fragments and shell casings found in Avery's garage.
I doubt any of names you quoted above would disagree with Newhouses findings considering all three markers matched (shell casing, firing pin and rifling marks). |
14th February 2021, 04:34 PM | #545 |
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Here is one of the interviews with Avery between Halbach's disappearance and his arrest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtrzOgH2k10 Someone notes in the comments his style is unchanged from interviews after his exoneration previously for the rape. |
15th February 2021, 10:34 AM | #546 |
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How does this refute the victims bones being in his burn pit where he had an 8 hour bonfire the night the victim disappeared, the victims belongings being in his burn barrel where he also had a fire the night the victim disappeared. The murder weapon hanging on the wall over his bed and his nextdoor neighbour admitting they both raped and killed the victim before placing her body in his bonfire? |
15th February 2021, 02:24 PM | #547 |
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He either did it or was framed, so knowing those fires occurred makes plausible planting the evidence there.
I think you may be one of the few who believe Brendan actually had sex with Halbach. But it is more the fact he looks pretty candid in those interviews, fixing the interviewer with a steady gaze, and answering the questions with no confusion except where appropriate to his genuine lack of knowledge. The car discovery and so on are described by him in a way that rings true. Maybe he is good, very very good for an alleged 70 IQ. (I have him several clicks better than that regardless of guilt status). |
15th February 2021, 11:37 PM | #548 |
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You see, the cops who framed him had it all figured out. First they waited until Avery was cleaning up and about to have a big bonfire, then they pulled out the body they had prepared earlier and slipped it into the burn pit while he wasn't watching. At this point they had already planted the vehicle and smeared some of Steven's blood on it. Then during the 'investigation' they shot a bullet out of his gun and dipped it in some of the victim's DNA that they had kept.
But all that manufactured circumstantial evidence wasn't enough. They needed a false confession to go with it, which is why they brainwashed Dassey into saying that he was involved by cunningly asking him questions about the crime! Now that we know what happened in this case, it's obvious that no conviction involving the police is safe, since any evidence they present |
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15th February 2021, 11:42 PM | #549 |
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Worthless
I would bet that Avery's demeanor or "style" was quite different when he ran a woman off the road and put a loaded gun in her face. That demeanor or "style" likely mirrored how he presented to not 1, but 2 women who later came forward to accuse Avery of sexual assault. The key to determining guilt or innocence is to follow the evidence and the evidence in this case points to Avery's guilt. IMO, when making definitive judgements about guilt or innocence, reading body language is a worthless endeavor.
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16th February 2021, 12:42 AM | #550 |
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16th February 2021, 05:34 AM | #551 |
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Dont forget, the cops also waited for Avery to have a cut finger and get blood on the gear shift of his own car so they could replicate it in Halbachs car. Then they randomly threw some of Halbachs bones in the quarry and Brendan just so happened to tell them that's were Avery hid some of the bones!
This giant frame-up operation all went so smoothly. |
16th February 2021, 07:31 AM | #552 |
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two books by John Ferak
Students of these cases should read two books by John Ferak, "Failure of Justice" and "Wrecking Crew." The former book covers the Beatrice Six case, and the latter book covers the Steven Avery case. Bobby Dassey emerges a plausible alternative suspect, with possible after-the-fact assistance from Scott Tadych.
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13th April 2021, 02:48 PM | #553 |
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Surprised this hasn't made the thread yet:
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...LE+STAMPED.pdf Basically, Zellner is alleging a Brady violation for withholding information about a witness favorable to Steven Avery's defense. The witness was the paperboy, who reported seeing Bobby Dassey and an older bearded dude pushing Halbach's car towards the Avery junkyard. The paperboy, Thomas Sowinski, reported such to the police and was told, "We already know who did it," and was never contacted again. |
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13th April 2021, 03:47 PM | #554 |
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13th April 2021, 05:24 PM | #555 |
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here we go again
We have been through this before, but you have yet to show any effort to understand the salient issues. On the basis of a negative TMB test, we know that there was no blood present. On the basis of the negative TMB test and the peer-reviewed forensic literature, we can rule out bleach-cleaned blood. Therefore, making a big deal about what gave rise to the positive luminol reaction is misdirection. Luminol is a relatively fast and easy way to cover a good deal of ground, yet there are many false positives, not all of which have been well characterized. This last point was made in a 2007 review article by Barni and coworkers (citation available upon request). What you wrote suggests that blood was cleaned up, but there is no evidence that supports such an inference.
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13th April 2021, 05:30 PM | #556 |
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too close for comfort
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13th April 2021, 06:49 PM | #557 |
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White, Leo, Ofshe, and Kassin
Those of us who have criticized the criminal justice system's handling of Mr. Dassey have quoted both from experts associated with the case (White and Leo) and independent experts (Ofshe and Kassin). We have offered a number of specific examples of how the police contaminated Mr. Dassey's account. Your comment is...a wholesale misrepresentation of the interrogation. If you are able to offer rebuttals to what has been quoted here, it might yet be possible to have a productive conversation about Mr. Dassey's putative involveement.
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13th April 2021, 07:05 PM | #558 |
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and then there were five
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13th April 2021, 07:20 PM | #559 |
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heat degradation of DNA
"Forensic Examination of Burnt Human Remains" link. This study reviews several articles which detail attempts to amplify DNA from samples subjected to burning or to heat. Most of them were unsuccessful. The authors wrote about one such study: "However, considering that the dental pulp is somewhat protected from heat by the surrounding enamel and dentine, this severe DNA degradation after such a short period of heating also suggests the poor heat resistance of DNA."
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13th April 2021, 07:51 PM | #560 |
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