|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
6th July 2020, 02:28 PM | #281 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
|
|
6th July 2020, 03:07 PM | #282 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
|
|
8th July 2020, 08:42 AM | #283 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
Steven Avery did indeed rape his underage niece Marie Avery.
479. & 480. Steven Avery Call - 02-04-2006 "I don't think I have anything to worry about with Maire, because she always told me that she would never say nothing." |
8th July 2020, 11:38 AM | #284 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
|
And the relevance of that is.....?
|
8th July 2020, 01:34 PM | #285 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
|
8th July 2020, 02:12 PM | #286 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
|
Or it gives them an extra motive, as they plainly thought he was a bad dude.
Perhaps you should stick to the actual evidence? |
8th July 2020, 04:20 PM | #287 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
|
Ken Petersen's doubts
When questioned by Jerry Buting, one-time Manitowoc sheriff Ken Petersen claimed to have doubts that Gregory Allen was actually the man who raped Penny Beerntsen. link
|
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
|
8th July 2020, 06:12 PM | #288 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
..
Quote:
|
8th July 2020, 07:07 PM | #289 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
|
That's the best you got? A anonymous description of what someone allegedly said?
I really don't know if either Avery or Dassey is guilty, but nothing you've brought to this thread has been remotely convincing, so if that's really the best there is, my doubts are actually increasing. Presumably if there was something better than this, you'd have brought that instead. |
8th July 2020, 07:42 PM | #290 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
|
minor correction
|
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
|
9th July 2020, 06:36 AM | #291 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
|
9th July 2020, 06:42 AM | #292 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
|
9th July 2020, 06:52 AM | #293 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,693
|
|
__________________
Un-american Jack-booted thug Graduate of a liberal arts college! Faster play faster faster play faster |
|
9th July 2020, 07:55 AM | #294 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
Anything more than your skepticism and "yeah right?"
The gravel pit was close enough to Avery's property that he would have had enough time to do exactly that. Now, had they found the bones hundreds of miles away that would be more significant, or if you could prove that the remains and her personal effects were planted in the burn pit on Avery's property then you've got something. Zellner's brief makes a specific reference to case law around "potentially exculpatory" evidence being destroyed by the State, which I happen to agree with her on. The State implied that those bones were Halbach's by releasing them to the family (even though it was never proven the quarry bones were even human), thereby destroying the evidence that she wanted tested, and for good reason. If the bones can be proven to be 1) Human, and 2) NOT Halbach's then you've got potentially exculpatory evidence. If they're proven to be Halbach's then it's not exculpatory as Avery had the time and the opportunity to burn the remains at two different sites. https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...+Avery+Doc.pdf |
9th July 2020, 08:22 AM | #295 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
There was no fire seen at the quarry. The vast majority of bone fragments plus remnants of Teresa's clothing were found in Avery's burn pit. That is where a large bonfire was seen that night. That is where his next door neigbour said they both burned the body.
Jeans in Avery's burn pit Its just silly how people are still debating this. |
9th July 2020, 08:45 AM | #296 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
More on Zellner's argument about the quarry bones, she is actually arguing that Bobby Dassey is the prime suspect. Her argument centers on proving that the bones were planted in Avery's burn barrel, not that there were two different burn sites.
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ed+6.25.20.pdf The State misconstrues the apparent or potential exculpatory nature of the Manitowoc County Gravel Pit bone fragments. Mr. Avery presented the affidavit of Dr. DeHaan that Ms. Halbach did not burn in Mr Avery's burn pit and her bones were planted there. (795:2-3, ¶ 10(a)-(d)). Dr. DeHaan opined that Ms. Halbach was burned in a burn barrel, and it is undisputed that larger human bones were found in the Dassey burn barrel (# 7964): a human scapula, portions of a spinal column, metacarpals, and long-bone fragments. (795:4, ¶ 13) (633:11) (706:231-33). The Dassey burn barrel bones had cut marks. (756:29) The Gravel Pit bones had cut marks. (772:16-18). By destroying the Gravel Pit bones, the State prevented Dr. Symes, Mr. Avery's expert, from matching the cut marks between the burn barrel and Gravel Pit; thereby establishing that the Dassey burn barrel was the primary burn site. This evidence would establish a direct connection between the Dassey burn barrel, the mutilation of Ms. Halbach and the subsequent planting of bones in Mr. Avery's burn pit. Clearly, the killer performed all of these tasks. Dr. DeHaan ruled out tires as the accelerant. (795:5, ¶ 15). Dr. Eisenberg claimed that she detected the odor of a flammable liquid and not burned rubber from the bones in the Dassey barrel, which the State claimed was the accelerant used by Mr. Avery. (707:6-7). Mr. Avery was deprived of the opportunity to link the Gravel Pit bones accelerant to the Dassey burn barrel bones. The evidence against Bobby of motive and opportunity is apparent. ( -65, 82-87, 119-20). Additionally, if the Gravel Pit and Dassey burn barrel bones had been linked, the State's star witness would be converted into the primary suspect. Dr. DeHaan opines that the bones in Mr. Avery's burn pit were planted after being burned in a burn barrel. Dr. DeHaan stated: "the discovery of larger fragments outside the margins of [Avery's] burn pit and the finding of human bone fragments with similar degrees of fire damage in numerous other areas . . . is also consistent with the dumping of burn remains into the alleged burn pit, with some rolling or landing outside the pit." (615:95). (795:3-4, ¶ 11). If Mr. Avery establishes in an evidentiary hearing that the primary burn site was the Dassey burn barrel and the bones from that barrel were planted, that evidence would be potentially exculpatory and would undermine confidence in his verdict. |
9th July 2020, 09:05 AM | #297 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,693
|
Page 20 from the brief
Dr. John DeHaan, a forensic fire expert, determined that no body was ever burned in Mr. Avery's burn pit, based upon data he collected from his experiments burning human cadavers |
__________________
Un-american Jack-booted thug Graduate of a liberal arts college! Faster play faster faster play faster |
|
9th July 2020, 09:13 AM | #298 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
Right, which is part of the argument that Zellner is making that the bones were planted there, allegedly by Bobby Dassey.
Still think the fact that remains were allegedly burned at the Gravel Pit and then brought back to the Avery property is exculpatory? Not even Zellner is making that argument, in fact she wanted to link them to the bones that were found in the Dassey burn barrel in an attempt to strengthen the case against Bobby. Of course we'll never know because they were destroyed. So I'm not sure why anyone still tries to argue that the killer could not have burned the remains in those two different sites. |
9th July 2020, 09:40 AM | #299 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
|
|
9th July 2020, 09:53 AM | #300 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
|
Background on John DeHaan
|
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
|
9th July 2020, 10:24 AM | #301 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
|
9th July 2020, 11:01 AM | #302 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
|
9th July 2020, 12:40 PM | #303 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,693
|
"Therefore, it is my opinion that someone transferred Teresa Halbach's
bones to Steven Avery's bum pit." http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...Dr-DeHaan2.pdf |
__________________
Un-american Jack-booted thug Graduate of a liberal arts college! Faster play faster faster play faster |
|
9th July 2020, 12:56 PM | #304 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 14,555
|
|
__________________
Julia |
|
9th July 2020, 02:08 PM | #305 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
Read the whole report though and you should see several other facts that do not help the case for Avery's innocence at all. Or you can cherry pick the parts of it that do match your confirmation bias and ignore everything else.
Here is just one of them:
Quote:
DeHaan then goes on to give his expert opinion that leads to his statement that Teresa Halbach's remains were not burned in the location that the State theorizes that they were. I don't have the expertise to challenge him on that point, but this is not a trial in a court of law and I'm not on the jury. The trial has already happened, so at this point it is not enough to simply state that these facts don't match the States theory, you have to show how this new evidence reveals something exculpatory or undeniable misconduct by the State of Wisconsin. She actually argues for both in her brief, but obviously it remains to be seen if she will be successful or not. As I've said before, I would be fine with Avery getting a new trial. I would not be surprised however that he's again found guilty unless something new is revealed and presented at trial that changes the facts of the case in some sort of major way. So far, nothing like that has been presented. |
9th July 2020, 02:25 PM | #306 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
|
The idea of this forum is not to change the world but to explain the world.
I am interested in the actions ascribed to Avery, which include putting her in shackles and raping her, then moving her to the garage and shooting her, then putting her body in the car and driving from the property, then making a 15 minute phone call from the property to his girl friend in jail, in which he is exceedingly calm, then transferring the body from the car to the burn pit and having his nephew help him burn her. Then he must move the car several days later to its found location. During all this time he is entitled to expect someone who cares about Teresa Halbach to look for her, and that he will need to comfortably explain the forensic evidence as nothing to do with his actions. It does not compute. Other courses of action by different parties are also puzzling but several orders of magnitude less so. |
9th July 2020, 02:42 PM | #307 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
So then explain this world that you have created, because some of the above matches the known facts and some of it doesn't.
For the sake of this exercise I'll go ahead and assume your description of the events is true. Tell me why it doesn't compute and your narrative proves he did not commit the crimes that he was convicted of. |
9th July 2020, 03:37 PM | #308 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,693
|
|
__________________
Un-american Jack-booted thug Graduate of a liberal arts college! Faster play faster faster play faster |
|
9th July 2020, 07:27 PM | #309 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
|
Sauce for the goose
"Previously, the three crime laboratories made up the Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory Bureau within the Division of Law Enforcement Services (DLES) at DOJ." link There was a reorganization in 2019. The prosecution's forensic expert witnesses were paid by the State of Wisconsin and before 2019 were part of the Division of Law Enforcement Services.
In a previous comment I provided two links to DeHaan's credentials. |
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
|
10th July 2020, 12:43 AM | #310 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
Seriously this is stupid.
How anyone can still think Avery is innocent is rather mind boggling. |
10th July 2020, 01:17 AM | #311 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
|
|
11th July 2020, 08:47 AM | #312 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
|
11th July 2020, 09:48 AM | #313 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 14,555
|
|
__________________
Julia |
|
11th July 2020, 11:24 AM | #314 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
|
noble cause corruption includes "planting or fabricating evidence, lying or the fabrication and manipulation of facts on reports or through testimony in court, and generally abusing police authority to make a charge stick.
I will flatter these crooks by imagining them noble, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_cause_corruption |
11th July 2020, 02:58 PM | #315 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
|
11th July 2020, 03:35 PM | #316 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,342
|
|
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
|
12th July 2020, 07:21 AM | #317 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
|
not sure what you mean
|
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
|
12th July 2020, 09:05 AM | #318 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 732
|
A witness, an admittance by the guilty party, a set of circumstances that would rule out any other plausible scenario. A demonstration of how it could be done along with showing the alleged party would have had the means and the opportunity. In a case like this with so much evidence that is in dispute or was allegedly planted you would also have to show that one person was able to plant all of that evidence, or you would have to show a clear conspiracy.
The problem is what we have in this case amounts to "the bones weren't burned in his burn pit so they must have been planted", or "that can't be Avery's DNA so someone must have planted it there", or "he wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave her car right there in nearly plain sight so someone must have planted it there to frame him". |
12th July 2020, 09:34 AM | #319 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
|
|
12th July 2020, 10:29 AM | #320 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
|
Everyone in Wisconsin who followed events from 2005 to 2007 knew he was guilty and the evidence was overwhelming. Steven Avery had zero supporters before this show aired.
If MaM has proved anything. Its proved that modern documentary makers and Netflix have zero ethics and put profit and entertainment before facts. Those who continue to insist Avery didn't murder Halbach are either too proud to admit they got duped by TV show full of cheap editing tricks or cannot bare the thought of defending a murdering incestial rapist on their conscience. |
Thread Tools | |
|
|