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3rd December 2017, 03:19 AM | #41 |
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The present system needs to be better at following its own rules regarding investigating all reasonable lines of enquiry and disclosing all evidence, including exculpatory so that the jury or judge gets everything. Not just a cherry picked prosecution version/story.
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3rd December 2017, 06:12 AM | #42 |
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Yes, that's a better way of looking at it. And the police latched on to the aggressive violent man who wasn't actually a murderer and ignored the serial killer. If indeed they knew about him. I'm not convinced the original police investigation was really at fault here - though you may well be right that they didn't spread the net widely enough when they thought they had found someone. |
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3rd December 2017, 06:14 AM | #43 |
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3rd December 2017, 08:03 AM | #44 |
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I thought I heard it mentioned in the tv doc on the Chillenden Murders. I can't find the reference, so it appears I am mistaken about that.
However, the police believe the laces used to tie up the victims were some kind of ligatures - used by junkies to find a vein and inject. Stone was a junkie, kept a hammer in his car, had a record of violent behaviour. Josie who was at the scene of the murders heard the attacker demand money and set about Lin when she said she didn't have any cash. This ties in with the junkie profile as junkies will steal anything to fund their habits. When I used to park for work in Highbury I had my car broken into twice - including a courtesy car - just to have my driving shoes stolen (in a carrier bag) and the corutesy car radio. The police said 'probably a junkie', as only a desperate person such as a junkie would go to such lengths for such small returns. |
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3rd December 2017, 08:05 AM | #45 |
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The charge should be bribery and attempted fraud if the motive is simply for Stone to claim false compensation for his 20-year jail sentence.
If his new evidence is genuine, then I am confident the criminal review committee will send it back to the appeal court accordingly. |
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3rd December 2017, 08:40 AM | #46 |
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3rd December 2017, 08:59 AM | #47 |
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3rd December 2017, 09:09 AM | #48 |
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3rd December 2017, 03:08 PM | #49 |
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Logic fail. In order to get any compensation, the case not only has to be sent back to court by the CCRC, Stone has to win the appeal. And even then, compensation is far from assured. To get compensation he not only has to win on the grounds that the conviction is manifestly unsafe, he also has to show that he is "clearly innocent". In practice the only way that hurdle can be cleared is if Bellfield is convicted. You're talking as if compensation can somehow be achieved just by submitting a case to the CCRC, which is obvious nonsense. Even if an appeal is granted and then he wins it, he might well not get any compensation. Compensation is only going to enter the picture if it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that Bellfield did it. So the idea that "he's only putting forward this case to get compensation" is ridiculous. What you are actually suggesting is that if someone tries to clear their name and fails to have their case accepted by the CCRC, not only should they be sentenced to additional punishment, but their lawyers also should be punished. This is unconscionable. |
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3rd December 2017, 03:18 PM | #50 |
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So, no evidence at all linking Stone to the murders then, just that he fitted the profile of the killer. That's not enough to convict. It was all they had until the alleged confession, which is why the judge directed the jury at the original trial that if they didn't believe Daley's evidence about the confession then they could not convict. (Hint. Those of us with some passing familiarity with the case already knew there was no foreisic evidence against Stone. You have to stop this habit of coming into threads and stating as fact things which you have incorrectly remembered from some documentary or other.) So, you have two people who fit the profile in the vicinity. Bellfield fits it even better because his modus operandi for killing was to beat his victims around the head with a hammer. Stone, in contrast, never killed anybody (else)? Why do you think any of this points to Stone rather than to Bellfield? |
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3rd December 2017, 03:48 PM | #51 |
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It's ironic that anyone could mis-remember forensic evidence from the Chillenden Murders documentary as implicating Stone. The conclusion was that DNA evidence from the crime scene pointed to an unknown male and was ruled out as coming from Stone.
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3rd December 2017, 04:29 PM | #52 |
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I haven't seen the documentary but the Wolchover article makes this perfectly clear also.
Vixen also thought the surviving girl was called Megan. People who wade in all self-righteous and accusatory when they know next to nothing about the case they're commenting on really get on my nerves. |
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3rd December 2017, 06:40 PM | #53 |
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Not my claim, guv. Bellfield's laywers claim they have proof in the form of written notes from Stone that he is conspiring to get Bellfield to take the rap so that he can claim compensation.
The lawyers for Stone claim to have 'new evidence'. I didn't see anything in the tv documentary that was new evidence in the legal sense of the word (i.e, was not known of as of the time of the trial, or that the new evidence could not have been known of as of the time of the trial). The review committee will want to know: why didn't this so-called new witness who now claims to have seen Bellfield not listed as a witness as of the time of the trial? The other major criterion is 'does the new evidence bring a reasonable propsect of success in overturning the conviction?' In other words, yes, some things said at trial turn out to be false or inaccurate afterwards, but does it change the substance or the material weight of the evidence? Why did the defence not challenge it at the time, when they had ample opportunity to do so? Simply producing a witness twenty years later claiming she saw Bellfield near the scene of the crime on the day, leaves me feeling sceptical. |
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3rd December 2017, 06:42 PM | #54 |
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3rd December 2017, 06:45 PM | #55 |
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4th December 2017, 02:48 AM | #56 |
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4th December 2017, 02:55 AM | #57 |
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With the proviso that I haven't studied the case in detail, I had my doubts about the conviction when it happened. My memory is that there really wasn't much in the way of evidence against Stone, other than a jail confession which he denied, and the fact that his psychiatrist thought he was the sort of person who might do such a thing. It always seemed unsafe to me, but of course I wasn't at the trial, like Vixen was.
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4th December 2017, 03:31 AM | #58 |
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The issue that convinced me was that despite advances in forensic science, nothing has been produced to show Stone was at the murder scene. That is very odd for a scene which would have produced a lot of evidence, with two people killed, one badly injured and the dog.
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4th December 2017, 03:50 AM | #59 |
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No, you are vastly over-interpreting the eyewitness evidence. Josie has never identified Stone as her attacker. She has merely expressed confidence in the conviction, which is extremely common among victims of crime who derive comfort from the thought that the perpetrator has been convicted and are extremely resistant to the thought that the wrong person might have been blamed. |
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4th December 2017, 03:57 AM | #60 |
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If Stone can make a successful case to the CCRC, if he can then win an appeal, and if a subsequent case against Bellfield is successful in obtaining a conviction, Stone may get compensation. Perhaps more importantly for him, he will be freed from jail, though whether the rest of us should be happy about that is another question. How on earth is this "conspiring to get Bellfield to take the rap"? If Stone had somehow pressurised Bellfield to make a false confession in order to get Stone acquitted that might merit that description. But a prisoner putting forward a reasonable case to the CCRC in the hope of winning an appeal isn't "conspiring to get compensation", however Bellfield's lawyers want to frame it. The proposition that prisoners should be punished further for trying to mount an appeal and that their lawyers should be disciplined for assisting them is outrageous. ETA: I don't know how it is in English law, but it seems to me that what Stone is putting forward is very similar to the "special defence of incrimination" in Scots law. With this defence there is no need for the accused to prove that someone else committed the crime, or even to show that there is a better case against someone else than there is against them. All they have to do is to show that there is a credible, plausible case against someone else. This is a perfectly proper defence. |
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4th December 2017, 03:59 AM | #61 |
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However, there is currently nothing to show that Bellfield was at the murder scene. It may be too late to get that evidence, as it is obviously too late to go over his car and the clothes he was wearing that day. The bootlace has been lost, which is the main item of forensic evidence that might have had his DNA on it. I wonder if there is anything else in store that could be subjected to further testing? |
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4th December 2017, 04:32 AM | #62 |
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4th December 2017, 04:34 AM | #63 |
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4th December 2017, 04:48 AM | #64 |
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The tv programme - as produced by Stone's defence lawyers - claim that DNA rules out Stone, but could include Bellfield.
What they do not say is that if the DNA haplotype found was - say - R1b1b2a1a, then that would fit 30%- 40% of the male population of Great Britain. See: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28873-R1b1b2a1a This type of stuff is called lying by omission: it lets the viewer believe - hey, that was Bellfield's DNA at the scene. This is how the Avery 'Making of a Murderer' defence lawyers worked. They left a whole lot out. No wonder the great US public were baying for Avery to be freed based on the defence lawyers PR campaign. (Ditto the WM3.) Truth is, it is so easy to manipulate public perception via the mass media. Stone's lawyers are simply taking lessons from Avery, WM3 and Amanda Knox. So Bellfield attacked his victims with a hammer, but guess what, Stone also has a conviction of doing the same. Like the Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe, Bellfield had a pathological hatred of women. Bellfield's targets are supposedly blondes. Well, that doesn't fit Lin, but you haven't told us that. The fact Stone was registered in the region at a Cash Converters four hours before the crime indicates he was short of cash (these shops give you cash in exchange for goods). He was a junkie. Josie heard the man ask Lin for cash and then went mad when she sais she didn't have any. Bellfield spent the day with his girlfriend celebrating her birthday. I don't think she is a credible witness, but police were satisfied with the alibi and she was a witness for the prosecution. |
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4th December 2017, 04:52 AM | #65 |
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4th December 2017, 07:01 AM | #66 |
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4th December 2017, 10:31 AM | #67 |
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4th December 2017, 11:47 AM | #68 |
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And the citation?
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4th December 2017, 01:59 PM | #69 |
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Stephen Kamlish QC is a highly regarded criminal defence barrister with expertise in serious crime international law.
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4th December 2017, 04:51 PM | #70 |
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Fascinating.
Meanwhile, the Chillenden Murders credits: Produced and Directed by Matt Rudge Executive Producer Colin Barr Ruth Kelly Producer Lila Allen Stephen Kamlish isn't listed as a producer. How come? |
4th December 2017, 05:00 PM | #71 |
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Quit with telling me what my view is. I don't really have one, while yours seems already to be fixed even though you've demonstrated poor knowledge of the case on several points already. I think Bellfield is a more likely perpetrator based on his record, although Stone's profile certainly puts him in the frame too. I think either or both of them could be lying their little heads off, which is why I'm interested in what the evidence turns up. You know, that forensic evidence that is entirely lacking against Stone, despite strenuous efforts to find some. |
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5th December 2017, 04:21 AM | #72 |
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5th December 2017, 05:45 AM | #73 |
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5th December 2017, 11:58 AM | #74 |
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It is common knowledge:
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Sorry to hear you didn't know about how DNA deteriorates, but you can do some reading here:
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Perhaps you can advise where you got the idea that forensic evidence is mandatory for a conviction in a murder trial. |
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6th December 2017, 02:24 AM | #75 |
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Sorry to hear that you did not know it was common knowledge that claims are expected to be backed up with links to evidence.
Can you advise me where I claimed forensic evidence is mandatory for a conviction in a murder trial? |
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10th October 2019, 02:17 PM | #76 |
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Does anyone happen to know if there was an outcome for Michael Stone's application to the CCRC to have the case referred for appeal? The last I can find is a CCRC statement dated 29th November that the case was under investigation. I assume it wasn't referred for appeal (unless still under investigation after all this time) but I can't seem to find any statement that it was dismissed either.
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15th October 2019, 08:50 AM | #77 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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15th October 2019, 12:38 PM | #78 |
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Sorry, I accidentally left out part of the date. I am referring to the 2017 application. There was a lot of media attention around the time, due to the Chillenden murders documentary. I thought whatever the outcome, there would be further media attention after the review but don't recall hearing anything. I searched the CCRC site but found nothing more.
https://ccrc.gov.uk/commission-state...michael-stone/ |
16th October 2019, 12:48 AM | #79 |
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6th November 2019, 12:31 PM | #80 |
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It seems the parties in this case have been informed there will not be any case review and their comments are requested.
In short, the application for an appeal has been rejected. The above is just a legal formality.
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I saw the documentary, which was from a defence POV, and didn't think the claim Levi Bellfield was the real killer particularly compelling. |
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