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26th August 2019, 09:02 AM | #361 |
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26th August 2019, 09:15 AM | #362 |
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It should make absolutely no difference. She murdered a man in his apartment that was no threat to anyone or anything because she was either negligent or entirely too stupid to find her own apartment. Either way her carelessness cost a man his life, and she belongs in prison for it.
It's my hope that she spends at least the next 20 years of her life thinking about it while admiring her orange jumpsuit. |
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26th August 2019, 09:25 AM | #363 |
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I make a distinction between having a good reason and thinking you have a good reason when you don't.
So I think it's not exactly what you said. You said it's not a crime if you have a good reason. I say it's not a crime if you reasonably believe you have a good reason, even when you don't. |
26th August 2019, 09:26 AM | #364 |
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26th August 2019, 09:31 AM | #365 |
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No, it doesn't. Negligent homicide is still homicide by definition:
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26th August 2019, 09:38 AM | #366 |
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26th August 2019, 09:41 AM | #367 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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26th August 2019, 09:50 AM | #368 |
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https://sharpcriminalattorney.com/bl...-consequences/
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26th August 2019, 09:53 AM | #369 |
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And we're right back to what even is a crime when you can just go "I thought the situation was different" to something of this magnitude.
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26th August 2019, 10:07 AM | #370 |
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26th August 2019, 10:22 AM | #371 |
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26th August 2019, 10:23 AM | #372 |
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26th August 2019, 10:27 AM | #373 |
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I'd say there's a relative difference between shooting to kill someone you assumed was out to harm you without do anything to verify, and shooting to kill someone whom you knew wasn't a threat just because you wanted them dead.
The baseline for what she did here was totally unacceptable. I don't know what specific charge it should be, but her actions were clearly in the wrong. However if for example she went to his apartment and intentionally shot him dead because he was playing his stereo too loud that would be worse than what actually happened here, at least in my opinion. Saying 'x is worse than y' doesn't mean y is just hunky dory. Actions aren't a simple binary 'okay/not okay'. What happened in this case is not even remotely okay, but it could have been something worse. I'd hate to see her get overcharged with that 'could have been worse' (say with something involving premeditation) and walk because she didn't technically meet that higher bar. |
26th August 2019, 10:32 AM | #374 |
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I may be wrong about this, I'll let someone correct me if I am, but the jury can decide to charge with something other than what the prosecution comes with. I know that there have been a few situations where a person has been charged with crime x but got convicted of the lesser charge of crime y because the jury decide it that way. So I don't think they have to worry about overcharging and coming away with nothing. They can shoot for the stars and take what they get, I guess.
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26th August 2019, 10:37 AM | #375 |
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I'd say we're at "what crime was actually committed?"
If she knew where she was and who she was shooting, it's murder. If she should have known where she was, etc., but didn't, then it's some form of criminal negligence. If she didn't know where she was, etc., then it still might be criminal negligence, but maybe not, depending on the details and what the jury thinks of her argument. |
26th August 2019, 11:19 AM | #376 |
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26th August 2019, 11:28 AM | #377 |
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26th August 2019, 11:42 AM | #378 |
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Peter: Man this is worse then going deer hunting with Dick Cheney.
*Cut to Peter and Cheney standing in a field dressed in hunting garb* Peter: So are you all set to go hunting? *Cheney raises his gun, shoots Peter several times in the face and chest. Peter falls forward and Cheney shoots him several more times in the back* Cheney: Sorry, thought you were a deer. |
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26th August 2019, 11:44 AM | #379 |
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26th August 2019, 11:50 AM | #380 |
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These Yosemite Sam fantasies are great till you kill the plumber in your apartment building. Then maybe you stop and think about how good an idea these OK Corral laws in Texas are. Hopefully the people of Texas will consider this, much like other countries who clamp down on guns when they hit their bad scenarios.
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26th August 2019, 11:54 AM | #381 |
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As has been noted, "manslaughter" in Texas doesn't mean what it may mean in some other states. Deliberately pointing a gun at someone and shooting at them twice is not just "reckless," like say, drunk driving or cleaning a loaded gun in a crowded room. It is intent to kill, and murder is the right charge.
https://www.medlinfirm.com/blog/the-...rder-in-texas/ https://www.jedsilverman.com/blog/20...rges-in-texas/ |
26th August 2019, 12:03 PM | #382 |
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26th August 2019, 12:05 PM | #383 |
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26th August 2019, 12:08 PM | #384 |
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26th August 2019, 12:21 PM | #385 |
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26th August 2019, 12:42 PM | #386 |
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I am often asked to provide estimates for contracting work that require me to inspect the outside of a home while the owner is at work.
I routinely ask if there is access to the area, if there are dogs, and half jokingly -if there are neighbors with itchy trigger fingers. |
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26th August 2019, 12:44 PM | #387 |
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The latter, by leaps and bounds. So much more so when there was no imminent threat visible to the trains and armed cop, and a multitude of options at her disposal. There should be no provision for absent- mindedly executing a guy minding his own business at home. In a sane world, anyway.
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26th August 2019, 12:50 PM | #388 |
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Yup.
And she didn't have faulty information. She mads a series of outrageous false assumptions culminating in the idea that someone in their own apartment was a threat to her. IF ONE IS BEING GENEROUS TO HER. Even if it had been her apartment, he wasn't trying to get into it, and she gave him no chance to explain himself - or if she did, she wasn't listening. I know theprestige doesn't like analogies, but in this case it's like someone forgetting where her home was, going to someone else's house and shooting the lawful inhabitant when she sees him there. I suck at analogies. |
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26th August 2019, 12:53 PM | #389 |
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26th August 2019, 02:41 PM | #390 |
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We have to be careful not to forget we are only able to use the limited information we have at this time and base our judgements on that, so of course the below may alter when we here the evidence at the trial.
Now according to what we know the following happened. She came home from work in her uniform with her gun loaded and stored as she would have when on duty. She went to her apartment, we know she didn't but some argue going to the wrong address is a mistake many people could make. This is the "mistake of fact". She (this is a point we have very little clarity) apparently found her door already opened. She entered the apartment (thinking it is her apartment again the "mistake of fact") She saw someone - no mistake here there was someone in the apartment She at that point decided to kill that person - there is no mistake of fact in this decision She drew her weapon - she did not think she was pulling out an unloaded gun or a taser so no mistake of fact in that action She aimed - again no mistake or accident at this point, she did what she intended to do She fired her gun - again no mistake or accident here, her finger didn't slip, she didn't stumble and accidentally fire her gun. She aimed the gun - the same as above She fired her gun - again no mistake, no accidental firing This is why I keep saying the "mistake of fact" only gets her to the wrong apartment, it played no part in her decision to try and then succeed at killing Jean. |
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26th August 2019, 03:12 PM | #391 |
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With reservation at item 6, (you do not know what she "decided to do" WRT killing Mr. Jean- or more specifically when she decided this) conceded every item.
Question for you. If you remove the second item from your list, have you described a legal killing? Edit, in case my question is not clear. Had it actually been the apartment she thought it was, have you described a legal killing? |
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26th August 2019, 04:49 PM | #392 |
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She aimed and fired her weapon at someone, firing a gun at someone is intentionally trying to kill them, that is why they are known as "lethal weapons" .
Why do you want to discuss different circumstances, she is being tried on what she actually did not on some other event. That said I don't know why anyone would think much changes if it is her apartment. |
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26th August 2019, 05:02 PM | #393 |
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WRT your first paragraph:
Indeed. Firing a gun at someone is clearly an attempt to kill them, however, your timeline has her deciding to fire it before confronting Mr.Jean. That seems like an important distinction. She may have done that, but there is little evidence to suggest that is the case. WRT your second paragraph: Primarily because it would seem to be an entirely legal killing if it were her apartment. That she believed that it was, brings legal concepts into play meant to prevent someone who does something that is possibly illegal by mistake from always being considered criminals. If the act would have been legal had she not been mistaken then one of the barriers to the application of that principle is eliminated. Earlier,a poster pointed out that in the Oscar Pastorious incident whether or not he truly believed there was an intruder in his bathroom was essentially a moot point because even if there was he would still have been breaking the law by shooting through the door. It seems that is not the case here, and if her assesment had been correct she would not have been breaking the law. |
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26th August 2019, 05:34 PM | #394 |
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That's called "imperfect self-defense". That basically means the person honestly believed they were acting in self-defense even though that belief was not reasonable. That would only be a mitigating factor, not absolution of a crime.
Texas law does not have such a distinction. However, such circumstances would likely be considered in sentencing (I wouldn't be surprised if it is in sentencing guidelines). And such circumstances might be considered by a jury in determining which level of offense a person is guilty of, simply because a jury can kind of do what they want. |
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26th August 2019, 10:22 PM | #395 |
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I don't think so. I'm no lawyer, but my lay reading of Texas law regarding use of deadly force in self defense (linked below) makes me think it was still not justified.
For example,Texas has the condition that the actor must reasonably believe deadly force was necessary. I think the prosecution will argue that she does not meet this standard, as she claims she could not even see him. The statute goes on to list other requirements, including specifically what must be met to be reasonable. She fails on each count to meet the standard. Even for the lamest of justifications, that of imminent intent to commit a robbery, I would expect the prosecution to argue that she had no actual reason to believe this. Suspicion, sure, but no more. And you can't pop a couple rounds based on suspicion. https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-c...sect-9-32.html |
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26th August 2019, 11:01 PM | #396 |
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I believe there's more than a few cases where an assumption is made that someone was attempting to break into a house.
Only for it to be a friend of family member who was shot dead dead due to the mistake. |
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26th August 2019, 11:11 PM | #397 |
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That is correct. A mistake of fact in entering the wrong apartment is not a justification for the intentional killing. I think it was undisputedly an intentional killing.
The importance of the mistake of fact is that if there was no mistake of fact (she actually knew she was going into the wrong apartment) then she was committing a crime and therefore cannot claim self-defense. If entering the apartment was a mistake of fact, then she can claim self-defense. It doesn't mean it automatically is self-defense. It simply means that claim can be made. Then, the big question is whether or not it was self-defense. Specifically whether it was self-defense that justified using deadly force. For that question, we simply do not have enough information. We don't know what happened in that apartment. Maybe something happened where Guyger had a legitimate reason to believe that deadly force was immediately necessary. Or maybe she didn't. We simply do not have enough information at this time to determine whether or not a self-defense claim is legitimate. Guyger will have the burden of proof. We know that Jean did not have a gun or other weapon. On the 911 call Guyger only said he did not follow commands; she did not say she thought he had a weapon. So, Guyger will have some explaining to do. But she has been tight-lipped about what happened. And so have the police. Until we hear the evidence, we can't make a firm judgment on this claim. Even if self-defense is accepted, there still becomes the question of criminal negligence. That would mean Guyger legitimately thought she was going to her own apartment and reasonably believed she was facing a threat warranting deadly force. But was she criminally negligent in creating the circumstance that resulted in Jean's death? She was certainly erroneous. She was wrong. But the question of whether she was criminally negligent is a different matter. It is not an easy matter because of the complications of the circumstances and the significance of the consequences. If it was just a matter of someone walking into someone else's apartment, realizing they were in the wrong place, and then leaving; then it would be easier. But this case isn't easy. We can't put blinders on and look at one thing in isolation and declare guilt or innocence. We must consider the totality, which has back-and-forth issues of offenses and defenses. Just focusing on one offense or defense gets us nothing but around and around. |
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26th August 2019, 11:17 PM | #398 |
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26th August 2019, 11:37 PM | #399 |
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27th August 2019, 12:03 AM | #400 |
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My point is it seems there should be a requirement to make at least an attempt to identify the supposed intruder. Makes it less likely to shoot a child, or spouse, or friend who's supposed to be there. I don't specifically see it that much different, personally, but I can understand legally it is. |
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