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1st May 2019, 06:11 AM | #81 |
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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1st May 2019, 06:14 AM | #82 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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1st May 2019, 06:16 AM | #83 |
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Again this only matters in this loony bin world people live in where "intent" is the same thing as "preplanning."
The phrase someone used earlier was "These are the facts, and they are not in dispute." She pointed her gun at another human being and pulled the trigger. Did she think her gun shot magical healing bullets? |
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1st May 2019, 06:18 AM | #84 |
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1st May 2019, 06:24 AM | #85 |
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They're not even in the top 10 of most hazardous jobs here in the states! And yet, they've convinced themselves, that they're an occupying force in a hostile environment.
I think part of the problem is in wording of who's who: in my post, I said "if a civilian"; then it struck me: they're civilians too. Somewhere along the line, the police began to think of themselves as beyond civilians, instead of people doing a job, just like the rest of us. Or perhaps it was ever thus; just seems to me that a minority view is now the majority accepted view among police. If I were to say where the crucial turning point was, I would probably say it was when shooting an unarmed person, which used to get one convicted of murder, became an acceptable excuse "because. reasons." I remember the old days where cops would be frantic about finding the weapon they said the suspect had, because they would be up the creek if they didn't. Where bad cops carried extra pieces for planting if a shoot went wrong (or right). Now? Why even bother? "He made a move to his waistband ("socks", "jacket after I asked him for ID", "just moved his arm while sleeping in his car")". Bang. |
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1st May 2019, 06:27 AM | #86 |
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1st May 2019, 06:29 AM | #87 |
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I wonder where they would rank if they were always unarmed and did not also carry the less-lethal weapons like tasers and teargas and flash grenades, etc.
Imagine the dangers when trying to take violent and armed American criminals to jail without having your own gun. Who would take that job? |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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1st May 2019, 06:32 AM | #88 |
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*Confused* How high would lumberjacks rank if they weren't allowed to use chainsaws but had to chop down trees with their bare hands what kind of nonsense is that...
Beside what's your broader point? That "Protect and Serve" means they get to kill unarmed black people sitting in their own homes every once in a while? |
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1st May 2019, 06:38 AM | #89 |
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No, I think she personifies the Yosemite Sam mentality, that thinks you can pop a cap in anyone you think crossed your path. No regard for who it was, or what they were doing there, or if they posed a grave threat, or if they could be subdued without killing. People like this are murderers on the hoof, just waiting for their opportunity to kill with impunity.
As I said upthread, I live in a beach town where summer renters and maintenance workers frequently walk in the wrong houses. I've walked in my home to find strange men alone in it. Hell, I've woken up to find unknown guys inside. You know what I didn't do? Kill them. You know why? They were not threatening my life and I am not a ******* murderer. |
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1st May 2019, 07:13 AM | #90 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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1st May 2019, 07:40 AM | #91 |
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1st May 2019, 07:57 AM | #92 |
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1st May 2019, 08:00 AM | #93 |
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1st May 2019, 08:08 AM | #94 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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1st May 2019, 08:13 AM | #95 |
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It was on one of these discussion threads in this sub-fora, probably one of the "USA police acting badly" threads.
I wish when you searched for words using the search feature, it took you to the very post with the words, rather than page 1 of a 30 page thread. Makes it pretty useless. |
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1st May 2019, 08:16 AM | #96 |
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1st May 2019, 08:20 AM | #97 |
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1st May 2019, 08:22 AM | #98 |
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1st May 2019, 08:29 AM | #99 |
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Most do. Some are pretty clearly trying to downplay it. My position is that it does not matter how sleepy she was, or where she thought she was, or any of the flatulent mitigations offered. She killed a guy that posed no imminent threat. That's murder. Not just unjustified, or reckless, or negligent, or whoopsie-daisy inadvertent killing. Murder.
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1st May 2019, 08:41 AM | #100 |
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1st May 2019, 08:45 AM | #101 |
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1st May 2019, 09:54 AM | #102 |
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It's different states and different situations, but the guilty verdict for the Minneapolis police officer in the other thread might be instructive. Seems like a somewhat similar situation, a scaredy-cat cop guns down an unarmed person they shouldn't have. I'd note that Noor was convicted on the less severe end of the murder spectrum and is only facing up to 20 years.
Guyger's case might be treated more harshly in that she was essentially trespassing during her instance of trigger happy overreactions. |
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1st May 2019, 09:59 AM | #103 |
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1st May 2019, 10:06 AM | #104 |
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Yes but we've been told in very specific terms by a half dozen people who totally aren't saying she should walk that she... pause for dramatic effect thought something different, therefore being the Lathe of Heaven her thoughts create the reality she has to be judged by because reasons.
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1st May 2019, 10:12 AM | #105 |
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Seems exceedingly likely that her state of mind and lack of mens rea will very much play into her defense. I'd imagine her attorney would rather have the jury believe that extreme negligence and split second reactions lead to the death of the victim rather than malice.
Arguments over her faulty assumptions and intentions could very well be the difference in many years of prison time. Noor will presumably leave prison with many years of life to live a free man which would not be the case had he been convicted of a more severe form of murder. In Guyger's case, a similar outcome might be considered a success by the defense. |
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1st May 2019, 10:19 AM | #106 |
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Yes as I've said repeatedly until the same level of fervor for "mens rea" as a magic word and hair splitting over parking spots and the exact height of door numbers and placement of welcome mats is applied to black people shooting cops while executing no-knock warrants in the middle of the night (often at the wrong location funny that) or white supremacist running down protesters I maintain there's an icky sheen to this whole thing.
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1st May 2019, 10:44 AM | #107 |
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1st May 2019, 10:51 AM | #108 |
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But this was not a split second decision. She had to see Jean, deliberately unholster her gun, disengage the safety (I assume that, my knowledge of guns is a bit basic the hard bit comes out of the hole) take aim and then fire. She then decided to fire again.
That is not a split second decision. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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1st May 2019, 11:08 AM | #109 |
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1st May 2019, 11:45 AM | #110 |
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It's been said a few times in this thread but I honestly believe the most damning part has nothing at all to do with whether she genuinely thought she was in her own apartment or not. There are valid reasons why you might find a stranger in your apartment. The first one which springs to mind sort of happened to me recently : my water heater line burst and it was heavily flooding my downstairs neighbor. That's the sort of situation where maintenance isn't going to give you 24 hours' notice that they'll be entering your apartment. Had I come home while they were dealing with the situation I'd have found two large strangers in my home. Less than 10 seconds of dialog would clear up the situation and no one would have needed to be shot.
Nothing I've read about the case indicates that she came anywhere near properly assessing the situation before she decided to kill. That's what will (or rather should) seal her fate, irrespective of whose apartment it really was, or whose she thought it was. |
1st May 2019, 12:25 PM | #111 |
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I still think there has to be intent.
She had to be intending to kill an unarmed man in his home. It seems pretty clear, that she was intending to protect herself from an intruder. I don't know what the precedence is. If any. But if a police officer intends to reach for his taser, and instead reaches for his gun, they have been cleared in past instances. |
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1st May 2019, 12:30 PM | #112 |
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And, I ask for the billionth time, doesn't that just unmake the concept of a crime? Couldn't any crime be countered with "Oh well I thought the situation I was in was different, so you have to let me go."
And no weaseling out of the question, I want an answer. What could be a crime in your world? |
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1st May 2019, 01:16 PM | #113 |
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1st May 2019, 01:18 PM | #114 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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1st May 2019, 01:23 PM | #115 |
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1st May 2019, 01:33 PM | #116 |
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There does have to be intent, but what you are describing is premeditation, not intent.
She intended to shoot the man. She intended to use what she knew to be lethal force against another person. She did not intend to tase him. She did not think her gun was loaded with blanks. She did not intend to shoot a warning shot over his head. Her actions reflect her intentions, his death is the result of her intentional acts. Her mistake of fact may protect her from the most serious charges of murder. You'd have to refer back to the dozen or so times the Texas penal code was quoted in this thread and its ancestors to find the exact charge. But, please stop pretending like this crime is lacking intent. |
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1st May 2019, 01:44 PM | #117 |
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1st May 2019, 02:00 PM | #118 |
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Quote:
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1st May 2019, 02:30 PM | #119 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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1st May 2019, 06:12 PM | #120 |
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IMO only : she didn't do anywhere near enough to assess the situation before deciding she needed to kill (or protect herself). Back when I took hunter safety and when the NRA was only about how to be safe with firearms, one of the first few things drilled into me was being sure about my target. She didn't in any way do that (at least as has been reported). I hate to make an analogy to a cartoon, but it's almost as if she made a South Parkian pronouncement of "it's coming right for us!" and opened fire. I'm pro-law enforcement enough that I usually don't comment on that topic here (and so much so that I accept I'll never be allowed to sit on a jury), given the general board leanings on the issue. But even with that acknowledged bias of mine, this case just absolutely stinks to high heaven. Hell, I put more effort into target identification before going 'all guns blazing' when I was a teenager full of testosterone and bullets on his first hunting trip than what a purported law enforcement officer did in the case in question. |
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