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26th August 2019, 05:35 AM | #321 |
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That's why it all hinges on whether her initial mistake was reasonable. I find that it was not.
However, since there are several possibilities other than "intruder" in your own home when you're not there, and since the situation is reversed (you entering, the other person already there) I find it hard to support shooting EVEN IF she had been at the correct appartment. |
26th August 2019, 05:40 AM | #322 |
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And again, for the 50th billionth time, this insane interpretation of "mistake of fact" undoes the very concept of a crime.
Nothing would be criminal in your insane world because everything could be countered with "well I thought the situation was different." And as Belz said even this insanity hinges on the initial "mistake" being anywhere near reasonable which is most certainly wasn't. And, for the like 500th billionth time, I wanna know where all the "Mistake of fact" fetishists are at when a black guy shoots a cop executing a no-knock warrant. |
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26th August 2019, 05:43 AM | #323 |
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26th August 2019, 05:44 AM | #324 |
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26th August 2019, 05:51 AM | #325 |
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Again this "I'm not supporting her, I'm just role playing as a member of her legal defense team" thing is getting stale.
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26th August 2019, 05:53 AM | #326 |
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26th August 2019, 05:54 AM | #327 |
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26th August 2019, 05:55 AM | #328 |
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26th August 2019, 05:58 AM | #329 |
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Blasted through a crosswalk on the way to work today and ran over 6 kids. Cops had to let me go because I told them my boss made me stay an hour late last night and I was a bit sleepy.
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26th August 2019, 05:58 AM | #330 |
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26th August 2019, 06:01 AM | #331 |
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I see a solution here. The judge just orders the bailiff the shoot the woman in the head during the trial, and then claims he was sleepy.
Jesus Christ this is inane. Damn near every 3 days for 20 years someone would come to my bed, wake me up in the middle of the night for the specific purpose of getting a gun and walking around outside while exhausted. The "BUT SHE WAS AWAKE TOOOOOOOOO LONG" is intellectually and morally insulting. |
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26th August 2019, 06:02 AM | #332 |
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26th August 2019, 06:05 AM | #333 |
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26th August 2019, 06:06 AM | #334 |
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26th August 2019, 06:07 AM | #335 |
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26th August 2019, 06:14 AM | #336 |
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The reason in the link was that the woman was killed entering her own home because the shooter mistook her identity.
That mistake of fact seems to make the killing an accident- not a crime. Unless, you think that the sherrif is referring to the act of discharging the gun as the "accident". |
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26th August 2019, 06:18 AM | #337 |
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I don't care. You're not actually a member of this woman's legal defense team not matter how deep in character you've gotten and this isn't a court room, it's a discussion. You can't win by setting precedent that's only vaguely related.
We're not saying nothing can ever not be a crime because of an initial "mistake of fact" where saying THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT wasn't a reasonable "mistake of fact" and consequences thereoff. Do NOT quote another case about "mistake of fact" at us UNLESS THEY ARE ACTUALLY COMPARABLE. Also, and I'm going to keep grabbing you by the lapels and screaming this into your face into you get it... IT WAS NOT HER ******* HOME. |
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26th August 2019, 06:18 AM | #338 |
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26th August 2019, 06:23 AM | #339 |
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26th August 2019, 06:26 AM | #340 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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26th August 2019, 06:30 AM | #341 |
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Or, your mind was elsewhere and you mistakenly didn't think you were at a crosswalk. Therefore you made a "mistake of fact" so you have a defence against any claims of unlawful killing.
As JoeM says this is ludicrous because all anyone would ever do is make a claim for a " mistake of fact" and lo and behold you won't be prosecuted because all you did was make a mistake. |
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26th August 2019, 06:32 AM | #342 |
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Yet, as recently as post #322, you are claiming what seems to amount to:
"a world where mistaking facts can be exculpatory is 'insane', because then every crime can be negated by claiming it was a mistake". You roll that back in post #337, claiming that sometimes "mistake of fact" can be exculpatory. IMO, that is progress. Can we agree, at least, that sometimes what might under other circumstances would be criminal is not due to the principle of mistake of fact? And, further, that accepting that principle as a valid one does not create some kind of crazy world where "I can just shoot anyone I like and then walk because I can claim I was mistaken"? |
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26th August 2019, 06:33 AM | #343 |
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26th August 2019, 06:34 AM | #344 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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26th August 2019, 06:34 AM | #345 |
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https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617
When the authorities in the linked episode decided to treat it as an "accident", do you think they are referring to the act of firing the gun (as in, not intending to pull the trigger) or are they perhaps referring to the choice of target? |
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26th August 2019, 06:36 AM | #346 |
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I feel like we had this whole conversation about Oscar Pistorius. The conclusion was even if he was telling the truth about believing there was an intruder in his toilet, it would still be murder to shoot that person through the toilet door. So his "defence" was no defence at all.
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26th August 2019, 06:38 AM | #347 |
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No, not in the frame and context you've already driven the discussion it.
We're talking a situation that is absurd piled on absurd. She walked into the wrong apartment and shot the unarmed person sitting there... twice. No. Question of nuance and grey area and "sometimes" lamb bleating do not belong here. That's why I keep asking what would be a crime in your insane hypothetical worldview because if this isn't, I don't know what could be. That's why I didn't bite your "Ah but you said a mistake could make something a crime here but said not here AHA GOTCHA!" inanity. In any sane world, yes. In your world where "Slightly sleepy cop executes black man in his own home" is questionable, no. |
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26th August 2019, 06:46 AM | #348 |
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26th August 2019, 06:46 AM | #349 |
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26th August 2019, 06:47 AM | #350 |
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26th August 2019, 06:48 AM | #351 |
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26th August 2019, 06:49 AM | #352 |
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26th August 2019, 06:50 AM | #353 |
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26th August 2019, 06:50 AM | #354 |
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Okay. She entered someone else's house and made the conscious decision to shoot an unarmed, nonthreatening person twice.
These are the facts and they are not in dispute. That's it. There's nothing else to discuss. The second you go "Okay but she thought..." we are in your hypothetical world. |
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26th August 2019, 07:21 AM | #355 |
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26th August 2019, 07:23 AM | #356 |
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26th August 2019, 07:51 AM | #357 |
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I don't believe this was premeditated, I think someone asked me that in the earlier pages (I just caught up now), but I can't remember whom.
I think she was negligent on multiple occasions and her negligence led to the death of an innocent man. As others have posted here, even if she thought she was in the wrong apartment, it doesn't give her the right to shoot him. I personally believe that her negligence was on display long before entering the apartment. I've stated the multiple, in some case literal, signs that she had to have missed or ignored to get to the point of opening that door. The only reason her being a cop is relevant to me is that I don't believe she would have been armed otherwise. Which would have led to this whole situation being avoided. That's not the case, however, she is\was a cop. Being a cop enabled her to be armed, being armed led her to having the ability to shoot a man for absolutely no reason. She belongs in prison for murder. |
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26th August 2019, 08:03 AM | #358 |
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26th August 2019, 08:08 AM | #359 |
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Well, let's move on, then: Of course, killing someone, unless you have a good reason to, is a crime. So since this is the case on this specific topic, absent a good reason, she committed a crime. So when you said:
In this case, yeah, if I don't support her decision to shoot, it's because I think she committed a crime. |
26th August 2019, 08:20 AM | #360 |
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Not exactly. If you conclude from the available information that you have good reason, then it's not necessarily a crime, even it it turns out that you were working with faulty or incomplete information.
Someone who takes reasonable steps to be well-informed, and makes a reasonable decision based on that information, isn't committing a crime even if the information turns out to be wrong. And even when a crime is committed, the crime in question will depend on what exactly they did. Not taking reasonable steps to be well informed is negligence, not murder. While Guyger did probably intend to kill the man (in a technically correct is the worst kind of correct sort of way), I don't think it's murder. Not unless she knew it was his apartment, knew he wasn't a threat, and intended to kill him anyway. |
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