|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
1st October 2019, 08:40 AM | #361 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
|
|
__________________
"There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury |
|
1st October 2019, 08:40 AM | #362 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 14,555
|
I could certainly be wrong, but I believe the jury will be deliberating for a long time. Though I find her guilty of murder, I am not on the jury and have not looked at all of the evidence. It seems they have a great deal to deliberate. If she is acquitted of all charges, I will lose all respect for the justice system, which is already fractured.
|
__________________
Julia |
|
1st October 2019, 08:41 AM | #363 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
1st October 2019, 08:41 AM | #364 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
I believe I was the first to bring that up in part one of this thread, and I of course agree. No one should ever shoot in a multi family dwelling that they do not own. But that goes back to the wrong (although more sane) argument about shooting at all. That does not seem to enter into the argument. Because, Texas.
The instructions seem to say that if the jury believes that she reasonably walked to the wrong door and believed Jean was an intruder, she must be found not guilty. Not that the psycho shouldn't have been shooting at anyone, at any time, for any reason in those circumstances, which is my primary argument. Texas takes that as a given, evidently. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
1st October 2019, 08:45 AM | #365 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
MSNBC reports "Amber" guilty of murder.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...otham-n1060506 Question: Max is life. Is there a mandatory minimum? |
1st October 2019, 08:45 AM | #366 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
1st October 2019, 08:47 AM | #367 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
1st October 2019, 08:47 AM | #368 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
1st October 2019, 08:47 AM | #369 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
From everything I can tell they are the new iPhone earbuds, wireless. They were laying in some of the crime scene pictures at links scattered throughout this thread. I don't want to find them again, but I'm 98% positive they were the wireless earbuds.
I don't trust Guyger as far as I can throw her. The prosecution showed she was consistently wrong about every point she tried to make. She was wrong about him standing, because he couldn't have been. She was wrong about the apartment. She was wrong about being burglarized. She was wrong about absolutely everything she had said. I have no reason to believe her now. As far as the neighbor, it's possible that she did hear a few different voices. I'd think if Jean was "aggressively shouting" that she would be able to hear with a bit more clarity than just being able to tell there were two people talking. |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
1st October 2019, 08:48 AM | #370 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
1st October 2019, 08:51 AM | #371 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
The vest/no vest question has never been settled either way.
There have been instances where the wearing of a vest has been cited as a mitigating factor against a LEO in a use of lethal force incident - "He didn't need to shoot the suspect, he was wearing a bullet-proof vest." Never successfully afaik. I'm not aware of any cases where not wearing a vest has been cited as a factor in the use of force. |
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
1st October 2019, 08:52 AM | #372 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
1st October 2019, 08:52 AM | #373 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 14,555
|
YES!!! An appropriate verdict.
When will her sentence be announced? What and how long is she facing in prison? |
__________________
Julia |
|
1st October 2019, 08:53 AM | #374 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,306
|
|
1st October 2019, 08:54 AM | #375 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,306
|
|
1st October 2019, 08:55 AM | #376 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
Verdict in. Guilty of murder. Details as soon as I can find a stable article to link to.
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
1st October 2019, 08:56 AM | #377 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
1st October 2019, 08:56 AM | #378 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
1st October 2019, 08:59 AM | #379 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
1st October 2019, 09:01 AM | #380 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
1st October 2019, 09:01 AM | #381 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
That's a relief. The precedent a Not Guilty verdict would have set is terrifying.
Dave |
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
1st October 2019, 09:03 AM | #382 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
There were multiple witnesses that testified to hearing voices, one of them was a she that was on the phone with her boyfriend. (She lived in the apartment that shared a wall with him)
I apologize, but next time maybe use a name in a court case with multiple testifying witnesses. Thanks. |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
1st October 2019, 09:04 AM | #383 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
1st October 2019, 09:06 AM | #384 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
Sentence Predictions?
15 years, give or take 5 years is mine. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
1st October 2019, 09:07 AM | #385 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
1st October 2019, 09:07 AM | #386 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
I'd like to think that crossed the jury's mind. No matter how Mistake of Fact is interpreted, she murdered that man. Not sure if a bench trial would've had the same result.
Ding, dong, the bitch goes down! The mistaken bitch, The murdering bitch! Ding, dong, the murdering bitch goes down! |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
1st October 2019, 09:08 AM | #387 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
1st October 2019, 09:08 AM | #388 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,083
|
Given how quickly the jury came back with a verdict they must have been solidly convinced about guilt. Would hazard a guess that that would mean a sentence on the harsher side of things.
|
1st October 2019, 09:12 AM | #389 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
1st October 2019, 09:12 AM | #390 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Solola, Guatemala
Posts: 1,188
|
Wow. That was fast! I'm over the moon happy right now!
|
1st October 2019, 09:12 AM | #391 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
1st October 2019, 09:15 AM | #392 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
|
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
1st October 2019, 09:17 AM | #393 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
1st October 2019, 09:18 AM | #394 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
I'd say on the low end. 10 years.
I think the defense was pretty effective in showing that Guyger was a hapless idiot who made a series of big mistakes that lead to her committing murder. That didn't help her avoid conviction, fortunately, but it might reduce her culpability. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
1st October 2019, 09:19 AM | #395 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
Without quibbling over details of wording (I am not a lawyer) the minimum could be probation. Murder is 5 years to 99 years/life in Texas. I'm not sure about what the actual meaning of the upper bound is but I'm pretty sure the upper bound isn't going to be relevant in this case. Any sentence under 10 years I believe can result in probation. Parole is usually an option at 2 and half years for a five year sentence. |
1st October 2019, 09:23 AM | #396 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
For me, it came down to a fairly binary question of due process:
If she reasonably believed she was at/in her own apartment (regardless of the provenance of this belief - fatigue, distraction, etc.), then murder could not possibly follow from that belief. That verdict would need some other modifying circumstance, like stopping to identify Jean, and then making an informed decision to shoot him anyway. But stopping to identify an intruder is not required, for defense of one's own home. And since in law the reasonable belief trumps the actual fact, a determination of mistake of fact by the jury must necessarily rule out a verdict of murder. On the other hand, if it can be established that her belief that she was at/in her own apartment was not reasonable, then a murder verdict becomes pretty much the only option. Based on the evidence and the arguments at trial, it seemed to me that the legitimacy of her belief was upheld, and a murder verdict should probably be off the table, as a basic matter of rule of law. So I'm curious if the jury rejected the legitimacy of her belief, or if they accepted the mistake of fact at face value, but decided to call it murder anyway in a form of jury nullification. And I'm pondering how I'd feel about this outcome, if it turns out that the jury did opt for "nullification" in this case. |
1st October 2019, 09:24 AM | #397 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
I don't know if they testified, but they were interviewed by the police.
Quote:
|
1st October 2019, 09:26 AM | #398 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
Not sure how that follows. I would have walked in to the deliberations convinced of her guilt of murder but also convinced she deserved a light-ish sentence. And that is still true despite the fact that I heard things during the trial, her narcissistic worries after the shooting, that made me favor a "less light" sentence. |
1st October 2019, 09:28 AM | #399 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
1st October 2019, 09:32 AM | #400 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,083
|
The bit that's stuck with me from the beginning of this case is that even if she actually had gone to her apartment and came upon someone inside there are legitimate possibilities other than intruder (emergency maintenance being the main one). If she'd taken the time to properly assess the circumstances and threat level she should have seen a) not a threat and b) she's in the wrong place. So for me even if the belief that she'd gone to her apartment was a reasonable one, the shooting which followed wasn't justified.
On the highlighted above, if the belief that she was at her apartment had been found to have been reasonable would you say that all charges should have been off the table, or just the murder 1 ? |
Thread Tools | |
|
|