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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incident , Texas cases

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Old 1st October 2019, 08:40 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Over/Under on months until the first porn offer to Amber Guyger?
I was wondering about the over/under on her sentence.

I'll take a stab at 8 years.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:40 AM   #362
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I could certainly be wrong, but I believe the jury will be deliberating for a long time. Though I find her guilty of murder, I am not on the jury and have not looked at all of the evidence. It seems they have a great deal to deliberate. If she is acquitted of all charges, I will lose all respect for the justice system, which is already fractured.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:41 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My issue comes with immediately resorting to lethal force.
She wasn't wearing her ballistic vest. That could be a reason to retreat or a reason to use rapid lethal force. She is vulnerable to gunshots in ways that she is not as vulnerable when on-duty and wearing that vest.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:41 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If I were on the jury, I would consider the prosecution to have proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that the belief that the deceased was an intruder was not reasonable, by pointing out that he could have been carrying out maintenance work on behalf of the building manager.

Dave
I believe I was the first to bring that up in part one of this thread, and I of course agree. No one should ever shoot in a multi family dwelling that they do not own. But that goes back to the wrong (although more sane) argument about shooting at all. That does not seem to enter into the argument. Because, Texas.

The instructions seem to say that if the jury believes that she reasonably walked to the wrong door and believed Jean was an intruder, she must be found not guilty. Not that the psycho shouldn't have been shooting at anyone, at any time, for any reason in those circumstances, which is my primary argument. Texas takes that as a given, evidently.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:45 AM   #365
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MSNBC reports "Amber" guilty of murder.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...otham-n1060506

Question: Max is life. Is there a mandatory minimum?

Last edited by Bob001; 1st October 2019 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:45 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She wasn't wearing her ballistic vest. That could be a reason to retreat or a reason to use rapid lethal force. She is vulnerable to gunshots in ways that she is not as vulnerable when on-duty and wearing that vest.
Only if she saw a gun, or had reason to believe she was in danger of being shot. She didn't. If the Lone Star State accepts 'well, ya never know, he coulda had a gun' as a defense, the whole State is screwed.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:47 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
She followed literally zero percent of her training.
"Let me see your hands! Let me see your hands!"

That has got to be somewhere in the police training.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:47 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
MSNBC says "Amber" guilty of murder.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...otham-n1060506
There is a god!
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:47 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I read that his earbuds were found on the floor near his body. I didn't see that part of the trial so I don't know details. Were the buds wired or wireless? I presume that they were wired but possibly not because a fall to the ground could dislodge wireless buds.

Was testimony given that the (wired) buds were pulled from his ears as he got up from the couch, or what?
From everything I can tell they are the new iPhone earbuds, wireless. They were laying in some of the crime scene pictures at links scattered throughout this thread. I don't want to find them again, but I'm 98% positive they were the wireless earbuds.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There are two witnesses who testified about Jean saying things.

1) His immediate neighbor testified that he heard two different voices. He could not tell the gender of the speakers or what was said but he testified that it was two different people. Then came two gunshots. He also said that the tone of the voices indicated that both parties were surprised with each other.

2) Amber Guyger testified that Jean aggressively shouted, "Hey! Hey! Hey!"
I don't trust Guyger as far as I can throw her. The prosecution showed she was consistently wrong about every point she tried to make. She was wrong about him standing, because he couldn't have been. She was wrong about the apartment. She was wrong about being burglarized. She was wrong about absolutely everything she had said. I have no reason to believe her now.

As far as the neighbor, it's possible that she did hear a few different voices. I'd think if Jean was "aggressively shouting" that she would be able to hear with a bit more clarity than just being able to tell there were two people talking.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:48 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There is a god!
****. Yes.

CNN confirms
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:51 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She wasn't wearing her ballistic vest. That could be a reason to retreat or a reason to use rapid lethal force. She is vulnerable to gunshots in ways that she is not as vulnerable when on-duty and wearing that vest.
The vest/no vest question has never been settled either way.

There have been instances where the wearing of a vest has been cited as a mitigating factor against a LEO in a use of lethal force incident - "He didn't need to shoot the suspect, he was wearing a bullet-proof vest."

Never successfully afaik.

I'm not aware of any cases where not wearing a vest has been cited as a factor in the use of force.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:52 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Only if she saw a gun, or had reason to believe she was in danger of being shot. She didn't. If the Lone Star State accepts 'well, ya never know, he coulda had a gun' as a defense, the whole State is screwed.


Originally Posted by CBS News
She testified that she returned to what she thought was her own apartment to find the door ajar and heard "shuffling," and felt "pure fear" because she thought an intruder was inside. She said she opened the door and saw a "silhouette" approaching her. She said she yelled, "Show me your hands" twice and opened fire because the figure was "coming at me" and she couldn't see his hands.

"I was scared he was going to kill me," Guyger said.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amber-g...day-2019-09-27
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:52 AM   #373
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YES!!! An appropriate verdict.

When will her sentence be announced? What and how long is she facing in prison?
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:53 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
MSNBC reports "Amber" guilty of murder.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...otham-n1060506

Question: Max is life. Is there a mandatory minimum?
I believe I just heard 5 years.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:54 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
YES!!! An appropriate verdict.

When will her sentence be announced? What and how long is she facing in prison?
They are going to start hearing testimony regarding her sentence this afternoon.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:55 AM   #376
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Verdict in. Guilty of murder. Details as soon as I can find a stable article to link to.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:56 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
As far as the neighbor, it's possible that she did hear a few different voices. I'd think if Jean was "aggressively shouting" that she would be able to hear with a bit more clarity than just being able to tell there were two people talking.
Look again at my post which you quoted. That neighbor is a he, not a she.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:56 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Doesn't matter now, Officer Reaper goes down!
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:59 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
MSNBC reports "Amber" guilty of murder.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...otham-n1060506

Question: Max is life. Is there a mandatory minimum?
Quicker verdict than I would have predicted. I wanted her to be convicted of something but thought that the lesser charge was more accurate. I'm not angry or even disappointed with this verdict. Of course there will be appeals, but maybe no chance of success there.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:01 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
"Let me see your hands! Let me see your hands!"

That has got to be somewhere in the police training.
Probably, but maybe not the best choice in a dark room where you can't see the subject's hands. And witnesses dispute that she ever said that. And if he was wearing earbuds he would only have seen a silhouette barging into his house without hearing anything.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:01 AM   #381
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That's a relief. The precedent a Not Guilty verdict would have set is terrifying.

Dave
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:03 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Look again at my post which you quoted. That neighbor is a he, not a she.
There were multiple witnesses that testified to hearing voices, one of them was a she that was on the phone with her boyfriend. (She lived in the apartment that shared a wall with him)

I apologize, but next time maybe use a name in a court case with multiple testifying witnesses. Thanks.
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Last edited by plague311; 1st October 2019 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:04 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Probably, but maybe not the best choice in a dark room where you can't see the subject's hands. And witnesses dispute that she ever said that. And if he was wearing earbuds he would only have seen a silhouette barging into his house without hearing anything.
More to that point, she said she thought he could have been reaching for a gun, and he had a bowl of ice cream in his hands. Obviously she picked and chose what she could and couldn't see.

Oh well, bitch is going to prison for a good while.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:06 AM   #384
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Sentence Predictions?

15 years, give or take 5 years is mine.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:07 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sentence Predictions?

15 years, give or take 5 years is mine.
I think higher, I'd say 25 with the same +/-
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:07 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's a relief. The precedent a Not Guilty verdict would have set is terrifying.

Dave
I'd like to think that crossed the jury's mind. No matter how Mistake of Fact is interpreted, she murdered that man. Not sure if a bench trial would've had the same result.

Ding, dong, the bitch goes down!

The mistaken bitch,

The murdering bitch!

Ding, dong, the murdering bitch goes down!
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:08 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Probably, but maybe not the best choice in a dark room where you can't see the subject's hands. And witnesses dispute that she ever said that.
Hands could possibly be seen if Jean was in silhouette, which is what she claimed.

I'm unaware of witnesses who testified that she didn't say those words.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:08 AM   #388
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Given how quickly the jury came back with a verdict they must have been solidly convinced about guilt. Would hazard a guess that that would mean a sentence on the harsher side of things.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:12 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Given how quickly the jury came back with a verdict they must have been solidly convinced about guilt. Would hazard a guess that that would mean a sentence on the harsher side of things.
Why should sentence relate at all to that?
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:12 AM   #390
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Wow. That was fast! I'm over the moon happy right now!
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:12 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I apologize, but next time maybe use a name in a court case with multiple testifying witnesses. Thanks.
Maybe next time you should read what is posted. I wrote "he" four times and then right away you say "she".
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:15 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Quicker verdict than I would have predicted.
My thought as well.

It wasn't even close.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:17 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
My thought as well.

It wasn't even close.
Well there seem to have been no facts in dispute, it really all comes down to what is reasonable.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:18 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sentence Predictions?

15 years, give or take 5 years is mine.
I'd say on the low end. 10 years.

I think the defense was pretty effective in showing that Guyger was a hapless idiot who made a series of big mistakes that lead to her committing murder. That didn't help her avoid conviction, fortunately, but it might reduce her culpability.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:19 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
MSNBC reports "Amber" guilty of murder.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...otham-n1060506

Question: Max is life. Is there a mandatory minimum?

Without quibbling over details of wording (I am not a lawyer) the minimum could be probation. Murder is 5 years to 99 years/life in Texas. I'm not sure about what the actual meaning of the upper bound is but I'm pretty sure the upper bound isn't going to be relevant in this case. Any sentence under 10 years I believe can result in probation. Parole is usually an option at 2 and half years for a five year sentence.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:23 AM   #396
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For me, it came down to a fairly binary question of due process:

If she reasonably believed she was at/in her own apartment (regardless of the provenance of this belief - fatigue, distraction, etc.), then murder could not possibly follow from that belief. That verdict would need some other modifying circumstance, like stopping to identify Jean, and then making an informed decision to shoot him anyway. But stopping to identify an intruder is not required, for defense of one's own home. And since in law the reasonable belief trumps the actual fact, a determination of mistake of fact by the jury must necessarily rule out a verdict of murder.

On the other hand, if it can be established that her belief that she was at/in her own apartment was not reasonable, then a murder verdict becomes pretty much the only option.

Based on the evidence and the arguments at trial, it seemed to me that the legitimacy of her belief was upheld, and a murder verdict should probably be off the table, as a basic matter of rule of law.

So I'm curious if the jury rejected the legitimacy of her belief, or if they accepted the mistake of fact at face value, but decided to call it murder anyway in a form of jury nullification.

And I'm pondering how I'd feel about this outcome, if it turns out that the jury did opt for "nullification" in this case.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:24 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Hands could possibly be seen if Jean was in silhouette, which is what she claimed.

I'm unaware of witnesses who testified that she didn't say those words.

I don't know if they testified, but they were interviewed by the police.

Quote:
Hermus noted that witnesses who were across the hall during the episode testified that they didn’t hear her demand that Jean show his hands.
https://ktla.com/2019/09/27/ex-dalla...f-unarmed-man/
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:26 AM   #398
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Given how quickly the jury came back with a verdict they must have been solidly convinced about guilt. Would hazard a guess that that would mean a sentence on the harsher side of things.

Not sure how that follows. I would have walked in to the deliberations convinced of her guilt of murder but also convinced she deserved a light-ish sentence. And that is still true despite the fact that I heard things during the trial, her narcissistic worries after the shooting, that made me favor a "less light" sentence.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:28 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For me, it came down to a fairly binary question of due process:

If she reasonably believed she was at/in her own apartment (regardless of the provenance of this belief - fatigue, distraction, etc.), then murder could not possibly follow from that belief. That verdict would need some other modifying circumstance, like stopping to identify Jean, and then making an informed decision to shoot him anyway. But stopping to identify an intruder is not required, for defense of one's own home. And since in law the reasonable belief trumps the actual fact, a determination of mistake of fact by the jury must necessarily rule out a verdict of murder.

On the other hand, if it can be established that her belief that she was at/in her own apartment was not reasonable, then a murder verdict becomes pretty much the only option.

Based on the evidence and the arguments at trial, it seemed to me that the legitimacy of her belief was upheld, and a murder verdict should probably be off the table, as a basic matter of rule of law.

So I'm curious if the jury rejected the legitimacy of her belief, or if they accepted the mistake of fact at face value, but decided to call it murder anyway in a form of jury nullification.

And I'm pondering how I'd feel about this outcome, if it turns out that the jury did opt for "nullification" in this case.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:32 AM   #400
Joe Random
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For me, it came down to a fairly binary question of due process:

If she reasonably believed she was at/in her own apartment (regardless of the provenance of this belief - fatigue, distraction, etc.), then murder could not possibly follow from that belief. That verdict would need some other modifying circumstance, like stopping to identify Jean, and then making an informed decision to shoot him anyway. But stopping to identify an intruder is not required, for defense of one's own home. And since in law the reasonable belief trumps the actual fact, a determination of mistake of fact by the jury must necessarily rule out a verdict of murder.

On the other hand, if it can be established that her belief that she was at/in her own apartment was not reasonable, then a murder verdict becomes pretty much the only option.

Based on the evidence and the arguments at trial, it seemed to me that the legitimacy of her belief was upheld, and a murder verdict should probably be off the table, as a basic matter of rule of law.

So I'm curious if the jury rejected the legitimacy of her belief, or if they accepted the mistake of fact at face value, but decided to call it murder anyway in a form of jury nullification.

And I'm pondering how I'd feel about this outcome, if it turns out that the jury did opt for "nullification" in this case.
The bit that's stuck with me from the beginning of this case is that even if she actually had gone to her apartment and came upon someone inside there are legitimate possibilities other than intruder (emergency maintenance being the main one). If she'd taken the time to properly assess the circumstances and threat level she should have seen a) not a threat and b) she's in the wrong place. So for me even if the belief that she'd gone to her apartment was a reasonable one, the shooting which followed wasn't justified.

On the highlighted above, if the belief that she was at her apartment had been found to have been reasonable would you say that all charges should have been off the table, or just the murder 1 ?
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