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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incident , Texas cases

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Old 27th September 2019, 09:26 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Yeah. Prosecution even asked why she felt like she didn't want to be alone, yet felt OK leaving Jean alone while she texted her boyfriend.
Did that happen? The first thing she did after the shooting was text her boyfriend? What did the text say?
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:27 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
They nailed her on the "I did CPR" lie, the "he was upright and moving at me" lie, the "I texted my boyfriend AFTER my back-up arrived", etc, etc...
She did CPR. Covered Precious Rear and Contacted Rock-hard Partner
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:29 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Did that happen? The first thing she did after the shooting was text her boyfriend? What did the text say?
She texted twice at 10:02 and 10:03...still 2 minutes before other officers arrived, minutes she could have been attending to Mr. Jean.

ETA: She texted "I need you to be here... " (paraphrase) and than something else I can't remember right now without reviewing the tape.

Last edited by chrispy; 27th September 2019 at 09:32 AM. Reason: ETA
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:31 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
She texted twice at 10:02 and 10:03...still 2 minutes before other officers arrived, minutes she could have been attending to Mr. Jean.
I think she attended to Mr Jean quite enough, thank you
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:47 AM   #85
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Wow. She can't remember her de-escalation training. It was "too long ago. I mean, it was over a year ago. If you asked me then..."
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:51 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Wow. She can't remember her de-escalation training. It was "too long ago. I mean, it was over a year ago. If you asked me then..."
OMG! Did she really say anything like that? How long ago was her firearms training? She sure remembered that.
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:54 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
OMG! Did she really say anything like that? How long ago was her firearms training? She sure remembered that.
Mr. Bob, I **** you not. The prosecutor also just pulled out the contents of her backpack that she dropped next to Mr. Jean. It contained "Combat Gauze" to control bleeding and a first aid kit, all untouched.
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:57 AM   #88
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Also of note, she was asked why she didn't retreat to cover and call in an officer assist. SHe just replied, "I could have". The prosecutor folled with, "The Dallas PD headquaters is 2 blocks away, correct?". SHe responded affirmatively. Then, "So, in 2 minutes you could have had the cavalry here, correct?". Again, she responded, "I could have".
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Old 27th September 2019, 10:28 AM   #89
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So her defense amounts to ' so **** him, amirite?'

I have a suggestion for our British posters on Nov 5th
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Old 27th September 2019, 10:43 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So her defense amounts to ' so **** him, amirite?'

I have a suggestion for our British posters on Nov 5th
I mean, I don't know if I'd go that far, but they are certainly playing the "I ****** up, but it was accident" angle. They even had her mention, and this is the first time I've heard this, that she heard rustling and moving sound in the apartment. A defense attorney on the channel I am using said that it means they are trying to wedge possible Castle Doctrine into the defense. So basically in closing they will argue mistake of fact plus castle doctrine = not guilty.

So, actually, yeah. I guess the defense DOES amount to 'so **** him, amirite. Jeez.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:05 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
I mean, I don't know if I'd go that far, but they are certainly playing the "I ****** up, but it was accident" angle. They even had her mention, and this is the first time I've heard this, that she heard rustling and moving sound in the apartment. A defense attorney on the channel I am using said that it means they are trying to wedge possible Castle Doctrine into the defense. So basically in closing they will argue mistake of fact plus castle doctrine = not guilty.

So, actually, yeah. I guess the defense DOES amount to 'so **** him, amirite. Jeez.
Well the defense really has **** all to work with. A plea and sentence bargain was probably her best bet.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:09 AM   #92
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Guilty guilty guilty!
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:11 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She insists that he was upright when she shot him.
Again I don't care what Amber Guyver "insists" when the entire core of her defense is that she was wrong.

If she was incapable of knowing one floor from the other I don't think her opinion of the stance of the innocent person she shot should matter.

Her entire legal defense is based upon her being in unreliable narrator. She can't be that and be providing expert testimony on the same sequence of events.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #94
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I've been wanting to comment for a long while now and prolly have like forty posts all queued up but will ignore to jump in here...


Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
I mean, I don't know if I'd go that far, but they are certainly playing the "I ****** up, but it was accident" angle. They even had her mention, and this is the first time I've heard this, that she heard rustling and moving sound in the apartment. A defense attorney on the channel I am using said that it means they are trying to wedge possible Castle Doctrine into the defense. So basically in closing they will argue mistake of fact plus castle doctrine = not guilty.

So, actually, yeah. I guess the defense DOES amount to 'so **** him, amirite. Jeez.
See, that's the thing. The law is clear that for castle law to apply, the person must be home or at the residence in question while the invader is the one invading. So since she was coming home and came upon "an intruder" it doesn't apply.

Self-defense and / or protection of property is, by law, explicitly denied when a person is merely trespassing. IOW, it is NOT lawful to use deadly force against a trespasser but ONLY against a person who is committing one or more of several specified felonies. The law also explicitly states that there must be NO OTHER CHOICE but to use deadly violence. Guyger did not follow department training nor did she just follow common sense.

Also, Guyger took no time to ascertain that Jean was anything OTHER than, at most, a trespasser. She took no time to figure out which of those felonies that allow deadly force to be used that Jean was in the middle of committing.

And I agree with others here who are saying that they can find a little sympathy for Guyger; it does not excuse her killing Jean and she should spend a good long time in prison for it.

As to the typical cop macho ******** memes or military high-speed low-drag eyerolling crap.... that doesn't affect me quite as much as to Guyger and her fellow cops LYING and COVERING UP her actions afterward.

That is completely inexcusable. It's completely expected to occur, naturally but that is a complaint for a different time.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:18 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I don't care what Amber Guyver "insists" when the entire core of her defense is that she was wrong.

If she was incapable of knowing one floor from the other I don't think her opinion of the stance of the innocent person she shot should matter.

Her entire legal defense is based upon her being in unreliable narrator. She can't be that and be providing expert testimony on the same sequence of events.
Just want to say that I appreciate the very clear way you state this point / these related points of her defense and her defenders all very blatantly wanting it both ways.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I don't care what Amber Guyver "insists" when the entire core of her defense is that she was wrong.

If she was incapable of knowing one floor from the other I don't think her opinion of the stance of the innocent person she shot should matter.

Her entire legal defense is based upon her being in unreliable narrator. She can't be that and be providing expert testimony on the same sequence of events.
Agreed, and again the lead prosecutor did a phenomenal cross of Guyger. He broke everything down, form her decisions to her statements. Piece by piece he knocked that **** out of the park.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:29 AM   #97
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In my opinion, she is as guilty as hell. Somewhere in all of the narration though, I lost track of an issue about her sexting her married boyfriend. At what point was that? Before she murdered the man or after?
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:45 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
In my opinion, she is as guilty as hell. Somewhere in all of the narration though, I lost track of an issue about her sexting her married boyfriend. At what point was that? Before she murdered the man or after?
Yes.

Long story short before the incident she was all "OMG can't wait to hook up" and after it was "Holy crap I messed up."
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:46 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
In my opinion, she is as guilty as hell. Somewhere in all of the narration though, I lost track of an issue about her sexting her married boyfriend. At what point was that? Before she murdered the man or after?
less than 2 days later she was back sexting him and asking him if he wanted to get drunk. Less than 48 hours after killing an innocent man. WTF?

She also texted him about the shooting while Jean lay bleeding out.
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #100
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Forgive me if this has already been covered but I'm wondering about the position of mens rea or whatever you call it in America in this case. My first thought was that surely this wasn't murder because she didn't intend to kill him and so the necessary mens rea was absent, however I then wondered about the parallels with the Oscar Pistorius situation where it didn't matter whether he thought the person in the toilet stall was an intruder or not because even if he did it was murder to shoot to kill an intruder who wasn't directly threatening him and when he had the means of escape.

So how do they get mens rea into this one? By declaring that even if she had been in her own apartment it was still murder because he wasn't directly threatening her and she had the means of escape? How does this work in US law?

And while we're at it, why hasn't she taken a plea deal to culpable homicide or whatever the US equivalent is?
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Last edited by Rolfe; 27th September 2019 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:36 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Forgive me if this has already been covered but I'm wondering about the position of mens rea or whatever you call it in America in this case. My first thought was that surely this wasn't murder because she didn't intend to kill him and so the necessary mens rea was absent, however I then wondered about the parallels with the Oscar Pistorius situation where it didn't matter whether he thought the person in the toilet stall was an intruder or not because even if he did it was murder to shoot to kill an intruder who wasn't directly threatening him and when he had the means of escape.

So how do they get mens rea into this one? By declaring that even if she had been in her own apartment it was still murder because he wasn't directly threatening her and she had the means of escape? How does this work in US law?

Abs while we're at it, why hasn't she taken a plea deal to culpable homicide or whatever the US equivalent is?
The prosecution did a really good job of asking Guyger directly if she was trained to shoot to kill. She said yes. They followed with, "when you fired your weapon did you intend to kill your target?" (paraphrase). She waffled abit and then replied, "yes". So when she fired, she intended to kill
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:39 PM   #102
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Amber Guyger did not shoot Botham Jean by accident.

She shot Botham Jean while operating under mistaking information. Information that a reasonable person would not be mistaken about.

That's been this entire debate, that no matter what legalese about "mistake of fact" or "in mens rea" says you can't just go "I was wrong, I'm legally untouchable."
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
less than 2 days later she was back sexting him and asking him if he wanted to get drunk. Less than 48 hours after killing an innocent man. WTF?
I've needed a drink and a hug over much less consequential stuff. This is actually the most humanizing and understandable things she's done, in my opinion.
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Abs while we're at it, why hasn't she taken a plea deal to culpable homicide or whatever the US equivalent is?
Sad to say, it's a jury trial and in the US there are a lot of people who won't consider a white cop killing a black man to be a crime.

And, as others have pointed out, she did intend to kill.

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Old 27th September 2019, 12:50 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I've needed a drink and a hug over much less consequential stuff. This is actually the most humanizing and understandable things she's done, in my opinion.
Was it a drink and a hug she was after, or body shots and banging?

Get it, body shots and banging? Jean sure did.

And **** her with a chainsaw
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:55 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Was it a drink and a hug she was after, or body shots and banging?

Get it, body shots and banging? Jean sure did.

And **** her with a chainsaw
Jesus Christ, dude. Keep your sado-sexual revenge fantasies to yourself, please.
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:06 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Jesus Christ, dude. Keep your sado-sexual revenge fantasies to yourself, please.
Its just a meaningless figure of speech. Like 'let me see your hands', evidently
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:07 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Amber Guyger did not shoot Botham Jean by accident.

She shot Botham Jean while operating under mistaking information. Information that a reasonable person would not be mistaken about.

That's been this entire debate, that no matter what legalese about "mistake of fact" or "in mens rea" says you can't just go "I was wrong, I'm legally untouchable."
Oh, I agree, but seeing the prosecution nail it down in her own words was wonderful. A very good line of questioning to get her to the point where she says, "Yes, I intended to kill him" is no small feat. While most of us on the board see it as cut and dry, leaving no wiggle room for the jury should be paramount, seeing how often killer cops get off for these sort of things. Agree Joe?
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:08 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Amber Guyger did not shoot Botham Jean by accident.

She shot Botham Jean while operating under mistaking information. Information that a reasonable person would not be mistaken about.

That's been this entire debate, that no matter what legalese about "mistake of fact" or "in mens rea" says you can't just go "I was wrong, I'm legally untouchable."

It's quite similar to the Oscar Pistorius debate then, I think. I remember a friend who is a senior (Scottish) lawyer who also lives half the year in South Africa patiently explaining time and time again how Pistorius was guilty of murder even if he genuinely thought the person in the toilet was an intruder, so most of the debate surrounding the case was irrelevant. Then there was an appeal or some sort of do-over because the original judge herself didn't seem to understand this point?

OK, I'm convinced. This woman is toast.
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:09 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I've needed a drink and a hug over much less consequential stuff. This is actually the most humanizing and understandable things she's done, in my opinion.
Sure, me too. But sexting and sending nude pictures and suggesting getting drunk to your married-with-kids boyfriend less than 48 hours after shooting a man is not going to humanize her IMHO.
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's quite similar to the Oscar Pistorius debate then, I think.
I only have passing, layman knowledge of the Oscar Pistorius case, but yes there do seem to be at least some parallels from what I tell.
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's quite similar to the Oscar Pistorius debate then, I think. I remember a friend who is a senior (Scottish) lawyer who also lives half the year in South Africa patiently explaining time and time again how Pistorius was guilty of murder even if he genuinely thought the person in the toilet was an intruder, so most of the debate surrounding the case was irrelevant. Then there was an appeal or some sort of do-over because the original judge herself didn't seem to understand this point?

OK, I'm convinced. This woman is toast.
There's a little bit more to it. In Texas, you can shoot a person dead in your "castle" if you reasonably perceive them to be a threat. The jury might be unwilling to convict her of murder but find a lesser charge of negligent homicide/manslaughter more palatable, etc.
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:26 PM   #113
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If I'd been in her position I'd have been looking to plea-bargain it down to that in the first place.
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Old 27th September 2019, 01:59 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's quite similar to the Oscar Pistorius debate then, I think.
.....
I wouldn't go too far down that road. In P.'s case, he knew his girlfriend was staying with him. But his first thought at hearing a noise was not, "Reeva's in the bathroom." He thinks "An intruder's going to kill me!" At least that's his story, which some don't buy at all. But Guyger wasn't even in her own home and should have known it.

And it needn't be noted that Scottish, South African and Texas law vary considerably.

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Old 27th September 2019, 02:15 PM   #115
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I don't want to belabour the point, because as you say the legal systems are significantly different. However most jurisdictions have a distinction similar to murder/culpable homicide based on whether the perpetrator had an intent to kill. And I saw the question of whether Oscar Pistorius should have realised it was probably Reeva in the bathroom as being similar to the question of whether Guyger should have realised that she was not in her own apartment.

This led on to my question, which was whether Guyger was still guilty of murder even if she didn't realise it wasn't her own house, similarly to the way Pistorius was still guilty of murder even if he genuinely thought he was shooting at an intruder. I can see that at this point the different legal systems make the circumstances quite different.
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Old 27th September 2019, 02:51 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't want to belabour the point, because as you say the legal systems are significantly different. However most jurisdictions have a distinction similar to murder/culpable homicide based on whether the perpetrator had an intent to kill. And I saw the question of whether Oscar Pistorius should have realised it was probably Reeva in the bathroom as being similar to the question of whether Guyger should have realised that she was not in her own apartment.

This led on to my question, which was whether Guyger was still guilty of murder even if she didn't realise it wasn't her own house, similarly to the way Pistorius was still guilty of murder even if he genuinely thought he was shooting at an intruder. I can see that at this point the different legal systems make the circumstances quite different.
Yes, but regardless of her mistaken belief that it was her aprtment, she was asked directly if she intended to kill Mr. Jean. She replied "yes". It was a prudent move by the prosecutor to make sure he established intent in the eyes of the jury.
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Old 27th September 2019, 02:58 PM   #117
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Not to digress too far, but who was Amber Guyger before she became a cop? What kind of jobs did she have? Did she go to college? Is she a vet? It's not directly relevant to her (obvious) guilt, but her previous life experience might have had something to do with her apparent eagerness to kill.
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Old 27th September 2019, 03:07 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
... Is she a vet? ...

You can imagine my double-take at that one.
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Old 27th September 2019, 03:07 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not to digress too far, but who was Amber Guyger before she became a cop? What kind of jobs did she have? Did she go to college? Is she a vet? It's not directly relevant to her (obvious) guilt, but her previous life experience might have had something to do with her apparent eagerness to kill.
I also want to know what happened at the MLK parade in 2017. The prosecution asked about her experience at said parade, but the defense objected and it was sustained. Never came up again.
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Old 27th September 2019, 03:09 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Yes, but regardless of her mistaken belief that it was her aprtment, she was asked directly if she intended to kill Mr. Jean. She replied "yes". It was a prudent move by the prosecutor to make sure he established intent in the eyes of the jury.

Yes, that's the place where I'm trying to tease out the distinction. If the "castle doctrine" in Texas allows her to kill someone if she's defending her own house, does it cover her to kill intentionally even if she only sincerely thinks she's in her own house?

From what someone else said about the restrictions around the castle doctrine, it would seem probably not.
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