|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
28th September 2019, 10:31 AM | #161 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate
It looks like we were right that Bunny and her sister were deemed not credible. They didn't hear what they say they heard. It will be interesting to see if they are called as witnesses in a civil lawsuit trial. |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 10:56 AM | #162 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 298
|
|
28th September 2019, 11:03 AM | #163 |
Adult human female
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
28th September 2019, 11:17 AM | #164 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 11:28 AM | #165 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
|
28th September 2019, 11:31 AM | #166 |
Adult human female
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
28th September 2019, 11:43 AM | #167 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 12:00 PM | #168 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
28th September 2019, 12:06 PM | #169 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
No, but my reason isn't fairness. My reason is that I expect the members of the jury to have the same misunderstandings and biases I see in this thread.
Now, care to answer my question? Why is it fair to convict her of a crime she didn't commit rather convict her for the one she did commit? |
28th September 2019, 12:12 PM | #170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,825
|
I am suggesting that she knew she was attempting to kill a person who did not pose any threat to her, that she realised she was in the wrong apartment before shooting Botham and that she lied about the sequence of events.
1. The claim that she was at the front door area and fired the two shots at Botham when he was about 12 feet in front of her is false. The bullet that missed Botham pierced the extreme right side of the apartment which means Botham was not in front of her if she was at the front door. Secondly she could not have been at the front door area when she fired the shots at Botham since it virtually impossible to hit the extreme right side of apartment from that location. In addition the bullet that struck Botham had a downward trajectory. Amber Guyger is about 5 feet 3 inches so in order to shoot the tall Botham in the chest the bullet must travel upwards if he was standing in front of her. |
28th September 2019, 12:46 PM | #171 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 12:50 PM | #172 |
Adult human female
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
28th September 2019, 12:54 PM | #173 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
This video shows that bullet hole. It's at 0:28. The hole is located high on the right side of the end wall (exterior wall).
It looks like she can hit that location even if she is only just inside the door. But you say, "virtually impossible". |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 01:23 PM | #174 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
This is answer is going to be moral then legal, as in my answer is more to what moral wrong has occurred and needs to be addressed then to what "X law in Y jurisdiction says defines exactly as this and that" if that makes any sense.
We as a society maintain separate concepts for murder (as in Bill is going kill Ted to collect his life insurance) and lesser (or distinct since I'm not sure if lesser is really the best way to put it) concepts like manslaughter / negligence homicide / reckless endangerment / etc (Bill runs a red light because he's checking his cell phone and t-bones Ted in the intersection, killing him) because we recognize a moral difference between intentionally deciding/planning to kill someone and making a mistake that leads to the death of someone else. And that's a fine, necessary, and noble distinction. The problem is the "In mens rea" and "Mistake of fact" fetishists over-extended the concept to absurd situations like this where someone makes mistakes piled on mistakes. My main point throughout this whole discussions is many people in this debate have pretty much argued that "mistake of fact" or "in mens rea" means we are legally (or morally) obligated to let Amber Guyger go back through the sequences of events of that night with a "Yes/No" checklist on every variable and tell us if she is reasonable for knowing them or not. We're being told that "In mens rea" and "Mistake of fact" mean we have to just ask if Amber Guyger if she wants to be guilty or not, turning the criminal justice system in an honor system. They just think if they go through the entire sequence of events and ask her "Do you want to be guilty?" at every single step instead of just overall it makes a difference. At a certain point if you keep making mistakes upon mistakes the distinction between maliciousness and incompetence starts to get real thin for me, so the distinction between murder and various kinds of "unlawful killing" get equally thin. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
28th September 2019, 01:26 PM | #175 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
I don't understand your point. If she genuinely thought she was protecting herself killing an intruder in her home, I don't believe you can say it was murder. OTOH, her actions were so reckless and indifferent that you can't say it isn't an act of extreme negligence.
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 01:33 PM | #176 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
|
bears and tents
I am a very casual observer of this case and am not overly sympathetic to the defendant. However, I recalled something that I read a while back and found a mention of it elsewhere. It seems pertinent in that it deals with how one's expectations affect one's perceptions. "Elizabeth Loftus tells the true story of two bear hunters at dusk, walking along a train in the woods. Tired and frustrated, they had seen no bear. As they rounded a bend in the train, they spotted a large object about 25 yards away, shaking and grunting. Simultaneously, they raised their rifles and fired. But the "bear" turned out to be a yellow tent with a man and woman making love inside. The woman was killed.[48]"
|
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
|
28th September 2019, 01:34 PM | #177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
My point is she should be tried on the crime she comitted.
You also can't say it's negligent homicide because she wasn't negligent (and at this point, we actually have her own testimony under oath to this fact). If you believe her defense then you let her go. You can say that, she just said it under oath herself. This appears to be a fact that is simply not in dispute by either side at this point. |
28th September 2019, 01:46 PM | #178 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
|
28th September 2019, 02:12 PM | #179 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
The elements of the various possible charges under Texas law have been discussed here. This is not like her gun went off while she was cleaning it. She deliberately entered the apartment, she deliberately drew her gun, she deliberately pointed it at what she herself claimed she only saw as a "silhouette" in a dark room without actually identifying her target, and she opened fire. Jean's death was the result of multiple deliberate acts, any one of which could have gone a different way. Way more than negligence.
|
28th September 2019, 02:15 PM | #180 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
28th September 2019, 02:19 PM | #181 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
Here's a question: We know that she was wearing her full police gear, including pepper spray and a Taser. She was almost certainly carrying a powerful flashlight. If she was entering a dark space where she believed a threat was lurking, why wouldn't she use her flashlight? A bright light would have temporarily blinded an assailant and allowed her to better assess the situation. One more act of reflexive stupidity.
|
28th September 2019, 02:43 PM | #182 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
Admittedly, I haven't read entirely through the thread and for that I am sorry. I also am not familiar with Texas law. I am familiar with the idea of negligent homicide and that there are different levels of homicide depending on various factors. Am I wrong to believe that her state of mind isn't a factor?
I saw the case being discussed on the news last night and how one of the police investigators discussed that the layouts of the apartments are very similar and how it wasn't uncommon for people to make the mistake of entering the wrong apartment. |
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 02:46 PM | #183 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
|
28th September 2019, 02:55 PM | #184 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
It's common for residents to go to the wrong apartment. But their key won't work and they won't get inside. Guyger was able to push this door open.
Your comparative scenario isn't applicable because other residents don't even get inside the wrong apartment. They will not get past the locked (wrong) door. |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 03:11 PM | #185 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 03:18 PM | #186 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 03:24 PM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 03:55 PM | #188 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
To repeat, in Texas criminally negligent homicide and manslaughter are about doing something that you knew or should have known causes a risk to others who are killed as a result, but without intending that result. Driving drunk is one example; throwing a TV out of a high hotel window that lands on someone is another example one lawyer uses.
But:
Quote:
She intended to kill the man. She said so herself. She considered no other option. She said so herself. She had no justification for her behavior except her claims of confusion. Murder is the right charge, for which she deserves to be convicted. (And criminally negligent homicide would get her at most two years in jail, not even prison. That would be a travesty.) |
28th September 2019, 04:11 PM | #189 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
Quote:
She didn't intend to kill a man in his own apartment with any knowledge that he was a man in his own apartment. Her behavior could serve as a definition of irresponsibility and recklessness, but without any intent whatsoever to kill a man in his own apartment. |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 04:17 PM | #190 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
|
28th September 2019, 04:19 PM | #191 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
Well then, it's obviously not 1st degree murder. Unless your seeing some premeditation that I am not. Is there a 2nd or 3rd degree statutes?
Here's the thing. Police officers are trained to shoot to kill or at center mass. So what are the defense attorneys hoping for? Jury nullification? |
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 04:19 PM | #192 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
There still isn't an answer for why some people would accept she has a valid claim to self defense but still want her to go to prison. That makes no sense.
|
28th September 2019, 04:20 PM | #193 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 04:22 PM | #194 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 04:24 PM | #195 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
|
|
28th September 2019, 04:29 PM | #196 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
28th September 2019, 04:32 PM | #197 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
I seem to recall citations upthread explaining that there are charges less than Murder which do include prison time.
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
28th September 2019, 04:56 PM | #198 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
Imperfect self-defenseWP. Texas actually originated this doctrine. Which would reduce it to manslaughter, for a sentence of 2-20. |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
28th September 2019, 04:56 PM | #199 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,508
|
|
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley |
|
28th September 2019, 04:57 PM | #200 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|