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28th September 2019, 05:01 PM | #201 |
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28th September 2019, 05:01 PM | #202 |
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Is that in Texas law somewhere? I don't see any reference to that. Note that in Texas murder does not require malice.
I think an imperfect self-defense would be consider in sentencing (I'm not sure what the Texas sentencing guidelines are), but I see nothing in Texas law that would prohibit a murder charge or even knock it down to a second degree felony. |
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28th September 2019, 05:12 PM | #203 |
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28th September 2019, 05:22 PM | #204 |
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OK. So CNH could wind up with prison time.
I'll let other people decide if imperfect self defense is what they had in mind. I'm also not clear that that reduces the charge to man slaughter or is a sentencing consideration. ETA: So bottom line is that manslaughter may be an appropriate charge for this crime in Texas. Still not seeing CNH as it's defined in Texas. And I'm not really clear on whether imperfect self defense is currently recognized in Texas law or whether this rises to imperfect self defense. |
28th September 2019, 05:27 PM | #205 |
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How could you not notice the red rug in front of the door?
Quote:
Was there loud music on or singing at the time or not? That wasn't clear. Had Amber ever complained about loud music in that apartment before? Is there any evidence she went to her apartment first and then upstairs? Her car parked on the wrong floor supports her story. The neighbors did not hear what she claims she yelled. Is there any reason to think the neighbor's testimony was unreliable? If he was bent over when shot he might have been getting up. I suppose that could be interpreted as moving toward her. Why did the cops search his apartment and not hers, for example to see if it looked like she'd gone to her apartment first? And if they searched his for drugs they should have searched her apartment for drugs, but more importantly they needed to draw her blood and look for intoxicants. She testified that she tried CPR. That wasn't credible given she was outside pacing the hall when the police arrived. Lying about one thing suggests her testimony is not reliable. I find her story hard to believe but I also can't see what motive she had unless she was pissed at noise as she was about to go to sleep after her night shift. Establishing a motive other than an accident seems key to the prosecutor's case. However, if it wasn't murder then it most certainly was negligent homicide. |
28th September 2019, 05:27 PM | #206 |
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Look at it this way.
Would the events being discussed functionally different from if Guyger had been sitting in her apartment (her actual apartment, not the alternative fan fiction universe where her apartment magically appears wherever she images it to be, willed into existence by her very thoughts that the defense and her apologist want this trial and argument to take place in), had been cleaning her service pistol after hours, had it accidentally go off, the bullet travel through the ceiling above her, into Jean's apartment, and kill him? Yes, we can all agree that would be different. This wasn't an "accident." She pointed the gun at another human being and pulled the trigger because she wanted that person to die. She didn't think the gun shot magical healing bullet. The gun didn't go off in her hand. She wasn't firing a warning shot and it ricocheted off the fridge door and hit Jean. Jean dying was the intended outcome of her actions. It's what she wanted to happen when she took the actions. The law might not make the distinction and we can (and will) argue the pure semantics of it forever, but there is a difference between "accidental killing" and "I'm so wrong about so many factors I put myself into a situation where someone's death occurred." This isn't the equivalent of taking your eyes off the road for a second and hitting a pedestrian in a crosswalk. This is the equivalent and getting into your car blindfolded, driving the wrong way down the highway, at no point taking the blindfold off when you hear the car horns honking and people screaming "What's the matter with you!" and then hitting someone. If we as a society and legal system are going to maintain distinctions between accidental unlawful killings of various types and intentional unlawful killings of various types we have to, have to, retain the ability to go "No... your 'accident' is not reasonable" or as I've said many times we've essentially watered the concept down to asking people "Hey do you want to be a murderer or not?" and being forced to accept their answer. There is a logical, moral, and there should be a legal limit to how "wrong" you can be about the situation and still use it as an excuse. |
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28th September 2019, 05:33 PM | #207 |
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28th September 2019, 07:53 PM | #208 |
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28th September 2019, 08:05 PM | #209 |
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Premeditation does not require any specific period of time. It's not like she had to get up that morning and say, "Today after work I'm going to kill my neighbor." It can be a matter of seconds between forming a thought and acting on it. She chose to enter the apartment, she chose to draw her gun, and she chose to fire her weapon at an unidentified "silhouette." Each of those -- and other things she did -- is a separate, distinct act, and at each point she could have made a different decision.
Quote:
Texas apparently doesn't have second degree murder or an equivalent, which might be a more appropriate charge. But this was no accident. |
28th September 2019, 08:11 PM | #210 |
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28th September 2019, 08:13 PM | #211 |
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28th September 2019, 08:22 PM | #212 |
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28th September 2019, 09:50 PM | #213 |
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I cannot speak with any knowledge about the Texas prison system, but i have known people who have been incarcerated in more than a couple of correctional facilities in Washington and Oregon. They have said being incarcerated at any of them is not any fun. But there are differences which may make some better than others. And to a man, surprisingly, they have all said that jail can be much worse than prison. That's because of the temporary nature of jails. There are almost no rehabilitation programs in jails. Whereas in some prisons there are classes which not only can help them get jobs when they get out, it helps with the boredom. And in Washington State, particularly King, Snohomish and Pierce County are more crowded than the prisons.
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28th September 2019, 11:29 PM | #214 |
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28th September 2019, 11:34 PM | #215 |
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28th September 2019, 11:37 PM | #216 |
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29th September 2019, 02:52 AM | #217 |
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Here, the words "prison" and "jail" are used essentially synonymously. I had no idea there was a distinction in America.
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29th September 2019, 03:03 AM | #218 |
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This is what I want to know. If she did realise she was at the wrong house, then why on earth would she have proceeded to kill the occupant? It makes no sense, unless it was all a complicated plot to murder an annoying neighbour. Conversely, if she didn't realise she was at the wrong house, as seems most likely, how on earth did she miss all the signs? Especially the red rug and so on? That doesn't make sense either. That's why I'm suspicious she was high on the prospect of killing an intruder and that anticipation blinded her to what she should have seen. |
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29th September 2019, 04:11 AM | #219 |
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I don't for a second entertain the idea that Amber Guyger intentionally went to Botham Jean's apartment for the express purpose of killing him.
However if we're being honest if Amber Guyger had went Botham Jean's apartment for the express purpose of killing him... what about the sequence of events would be any different to an outside observer? The only difference is what Guyger tells us. That's been one of my major arguments this whole debate. If Guyger had shot Jean intentionally in a pre-planned fashion... how would we, the outside observers, know the difference? The actual events of what happened are not in question and the only thing in question is Guyger's mental state. If "In mens rea" and "Mistake of fact" mean what so many people seem to think it means, that whatever mental state this woman claims to be in is sacrosanct and unquestionable, how on Earth is premeditated murder even a crime we can convict anyone of ever? Literally every murder could be committed and then after the fact the murderer could just go "LOL no I thought it was situation X and therefore I'm innocent" and we'd have to accept that. I only reject the premeditated murder setup conspiracy theories because the "excuse narrative" is too convoluted. "Wrong apartment" is too messy of a fable. "I went to politely ask Jean to keep his music down so I could sleep after a long day of PROTECTING OUR FREEDOM AND SAFETY and the big scawwy drugged out black man charged at defenseless little ole' me so MY POLICE OFFICER SWAT TEAM NAVY SEAL TRAINING kicked in" would have been a better "story" to sell the exact same sequence of events. |
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29th September 2019, 04:58 AM | #220 |
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I don't think "Too weird to be fake" is compelling.
Look at Smollett's story. A hot sauce bottle filled with bleach? And that was supposedly pre-planned over a long period of time I don't find the premeditated theory compelling either. But if it were premeditatated, one of two things would have been the case. 1) Either she didn't have a cover story planned and came up with it in the spur of a very charged moment, in which case you wouldn't expect perfect logic in how rational the explanation sounded. 2) Or, the cover story would be prepared ahead of time, in which case she as an experience law enforcement officer might have a sense that a story that sounded too obvious might by itslef be suspicious because real situations are more idiosyncratic. |
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29th September 2019, 05:26 AM | #221 |
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I'm just getting through the Day 6 testimony.
No pockets in his pants? Ohhhh, snap! The defense keeps trying to overshoot and just digs themselves in deeper. |
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29th September 2019, 06:07 AM | #222 |
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Amber Guyger testified under oath that she intended to kill Jean. That's all the evidence of premeditation that one should need.
In my opinion her testimony hurt her defense. Her testimony that she was in fear for her life and she acted in self-defense was not credible. If she didn't act in self-defense and she intended to kill Jean then it's murder. The jury may compromise and find her guilty of a lesser offense but they will not be following the law. |
29th September 2019, 06:13 AM | #223 |
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29th September 2019, 06:38 AM | #224 |
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29th September 2019, 06:54 AM | #225 |
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I said it earlier in a tongue-in cheek-way but my point was actually serious - I said she has watched too many cop shows on TV. She thought she was going be a "hero" cop bravely defending herself, she created that scenario in her mind and went on with it, ignoring all her police training and the common sense any "reasonable" person would have shown.
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29th September 2019, 06:55 AM | #226 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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29th September 2019, 07:21 AM | #227 |
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29th September 2019, 07:34 AM | #228 |
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29th September 2019, 07:41 AM | #229 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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29th September 2019, 07:46 AM | #230 |
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We're talking around each other as in:
- Did Amber Guyger, prior to the events in question (say prior to opening the door to Jean's apartment give or take a step in sequence of events or so) have any intention of killing Botham Jean. No, probably not. I don't think anyone here is seriously advancing the notion that this murder was premeditated or planned out on a long time frame. - Did Amber Guyger have enough time during the sequence of events to go, on some level or in some context, "I now have to decide to or not to kill this human being in front of me." Many here would argue yes. - Does this moment of decision making count as "premeditation." This is debatable, with points to be made either way. |
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29th September 2019, 07:54 AM | #231 |
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29th September 2019, 09:44 AM | #232 |
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Elizabeth Loftus and Katherine Ketcham
Hi Rolfe,
The only thing I can think of is that she ignored the cues that it was the wrong house because of her expectation. See my comment #176, which is essentially the same as what is below. By the way, your in-box is full. "Two men in their mid-twenties were hunting for bears in a rural area of Montana. They had been out all day and were exhausted, hungry, and ready to go home. Walking along a dirt trail in the middle of the woods, with the night falling fast, they were talking about bears and thinking about bears. They rounded a bend in the trail and approximately twenty-five yards ahead of them, just off the trail in the woods, was a large object that was moving and making noise. Both men thought it was a bear, and they lifted their rifles and fired. But the "bear" turned out to be a yellow tent, with a man and a woman making love inside. One of the bullets hit the woman and killed her. When the case was tried before a jury, the jurors had difficulty understanding the perceptual problems inherent in the event; they simply couldn't imagine how someone would look at a yellow tent and see a growling bear. The young man whose bullet killed the woman was convicted of negligent homicide. Two years later he committed suicide." |
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29th September 2019, 09:54 AM | #233 |
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29th September 2019, 09:54 AM | #234 |
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I think she decided she was going to play being a TV cop, wanting to be the hero and once she started playing that role nothing else entered her head. That's when the terrible sequence of events started that she could have avoided. This is why I've always said her mistake only gets her to the wrong door.
everything else was a deliberate decision. |
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29th September 2019, 09:56 AM | #235 |
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Let's talk about application of the castle doctrine. To Botham.
He was sitting in his apartment keeping to himself. An intruder pushes open his door and starts screaming at him. 1) Her claim is that she yelled to "Show me your hands" and when he didn't, she shot him. Then again, he had no obligation to show her anything. He was peacefully sitting in his apartment, and an intruder burst in and started shouting commands. If the "castle doctrine" has any meaning, it has to mean that someone in their home does not have to follow the commands of an intruder. 2) I don't know about whether she claims he was coming at him or not (can't keep up with it), but even if he did, so what? He had the right to defend his home, yes? If we can't put her in jail for defending what she thought was her home, why is it ok for him to be killed for defending his actual home? |
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29th September 2019, 10:09 AM | #236 |
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29th September 2019, 10:11 AM | #237 |
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29th September 2019, 10:24 AM | #238 |
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She's not charged with "premeditation." Let's try this once again.
Quote:
She intended to kill him. She said so herself. Then she did. That's enough. |
29th September 2019, 10:43 AM | #239 |
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29th September 2019, 10:54 AM | #240 |
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