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29th September 2019, 10:58 AM | #241 |
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29th September 2019, 10:59 AM | #242 |
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The Guyger apologists have already succeeded in proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jean had every right to kill Guyger.
Problem is Jean is the dead one in this scenario. As you say Guyger's alternative universe seems to outweigh Jean's real one because simply because Guyger is alive to make up fan fiction about the scenario. |
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29th September 2019, 11:01 AM | #243 |
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Context, as usual, is important. In colloquial usage "jail" is often used as a common term describing incarceration in general (along with a whole raft of other terms). This can and often does include "prison". The opposite is not true. "Prison" is usually taken as a much more specific case than "jail". In conversations where detail is important then the distinction between the two is generally recognized. |
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29th September 2019, 11:11 AM | #244 |
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29th September 2019, 11:11 AM | #245 |
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29th September 2019, 11:12 AM | #246 |
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29th September 2019, 11:14 AM | #247 |
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29th September 2019, 11:17 AM | #248 |
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Some people are obviously using the term "premeditated" to only describe decisions made well in advance of the actual actions.
To what degree that is true is another matter. I've long been opposed to characterizing the events as Guyger shooting Jean "by accident." It was an intentional act. "Intention become premeditation exactly X.X seconds before the act" is a question for the philosophers. |
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29th September 2019, 11:32 AM | #249 |
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29th September 2019, 11:44 AM | #250 |
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29th September 2019, 12:00 PM | #251 |
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29th September 2019, 12:05 PM | #252 |
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29th September 2019, 12:15 PM | #253 |
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29th September 2019, 12:27 PM | #254 |
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I agree with that, but I think properly understanding how intent and negligence factor in to this crime will affect sentencing no matter which crime she gets convicted of so I think it's still important to understand intent.
Prior to the trial I would have been happy with her getting some minimum prison time. But after learning some things for the trial about how she acted while Jean was dying I want more than the minimum time. |
29th September 2019, 12:30 PM | #255 |
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Well, the lawyers and judges seem to have thought about it and seem to agree that the time spent premeditating isn't the issue, it's the quality of the thought.
For example: http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictiona...editation.aspx
Quote:
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29th September 2019, 01:00 PM | #256 |
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That last bit is not correct. Lack of intent is not an element of manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. It is commonly described that way because if there were intent then it would be murder. Intent is not exclusionary of those lesser charges.
But we have not heard from the judge on whether lesser included charges will be an option for the jury. |
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29th September 2019, 01:04 PM | #257 |
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The only thing I have been able to find on imperfect self-defense originating in Texas is the issue where someone provokes somebody and uses self-defense against them when they attack. Provocation in regards to self-defense has since been codified into the Texas Penal Code.
I can't find anything about murder being considered manslaughter in Texas if there is an imperfect self-defense as a result of a determination that a person truly held a belief that force was necessary but that belief was not reasonable. |
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29th September 2019, 01:10 PM | #258 |
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Premeditation is not an element of murder in Texas. Similarly, it has nothing to do with manslaughter.
It only exists to a partial degree in that at the punishment phase for a murder conviction, if a person proves that the murder occurred as a result of sudden passion rising out of provocation then it is a second degree felony instead of a first degree felony. But this type of lack of premeditation specially requires provocation. |
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29th September 2019, 01:33 PM | #259 |
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29th September 2019, 03:28 PM | #260 |
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ac, I'm not following you. If you acknowledge that she intended to kill then surely the standard I'll quote here:
Sec. 19.02. MURDER. (b) A person commits an offense if he: (1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual; has been met. The question of whether Guyger was justified by acting in self-defense is a separate. What brought her to the door is also a separate question. She may have gotten to the door by accident, but once there her actions were intentional and deliberate. If it a lesser charge is available to them the jury may compromise on a lesser verdict but I believe that would be contrary to the law and the facts of the case. Guyger intended to kill Jean. She either legitimately did it in self-defense or not. I believe she did not legitimately act in self-defense. |
29th September 2019, 03:47 PM | #261 |
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I think that's the question. Ddid she believe it was self defense? This really is a tough one in my mind. Maybe I would be more confident if I was more familiar with the case than I am.
I think for a police officer to say they didn't intend to kill when they pulled the trigger would almost be disingenuous. According to the statute, I would be wrong and there is no question the outcome. But, I also don't believe the statute had this situation in mind. I can't ignore her recklessness but I also believe it would be a mistake to not recognize a genuine extenuating circumstance. |
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29th September 2019, 03:58 PM | #262 |
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And this is the disagreement we've been having for 3 threads now.
I don't care if Amber Guyger truly and honestly believed in her heart of hearts that she was in her apartment and Botham Jean was running at her brandishing a machete in one hand and a notarized form saying "I hereby declare my intent to murder you, yes you Amber Guyger." If we could wrap Amber Guyger in Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth and prove beyond all metaphysical doubt that she did honestly and truly believe in that moment that she was acting in pure and noble self defense my opinion of her guilt would not change one iota. Because I don't find the belief that she was in her apartment reasonable. I don't think she's lying, I just think she's so wrong she's achieved the same level of guilt. I'm sorry there's no readily available concise Latin phrase for it to throw around but there is, or at the very least should be, a legal limit on how "wrong" you're just allowed to be and point at as an circumstance to justify your actions. That's really the true irony of this. I've thought Amber Guyger was telling the truth from day one... and I still think she's guilty. I'm throwing her into same category as someone who actually makes an honest mistake seems wrong to me somehow. |
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29th September 2019, 04:17 PM | #263 |
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And I disagree with the idea that her state of mind doesn't matter when considering her penalty. I absolutely agree that this woman was so reckless that whether she believed that she was in the right and that she was acting in self defense doesn't equal a Get out of Jail card.
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29th September 2019, 04:22 PM | #264 |
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Who said anything like that? You've been saying things like you can't see her being charged or convicted of murder and that's what most people are disagreeing with you on. You've been disagreeing with the charge not the penalty. There is a LOT of discretion at sentencing, everything from 5 to 99 years. I would think most people here are expecting and desiring something near 5 (which could have her out in 2.5 years I think).
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29th September 2019, 04:38 PM | #265 |
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29th September 2019, 04:44 PM | #266 |
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What do you mean "someone else"? It's up to the judge (and jury maybe?).
And when I said "discretion" that probably over simplifies. I'd expect there are guidelines for sentencing and the judge can also exercise some discretion. It's not all "discretion". |
29th September 2019, 04:57 PM | #267 |
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29th September 2019, 05:55 PM | #268 |
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29th September 2019, 06:45 PM | #269 |
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29th September 2019, 07:55 PM | #270 |
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29th September 2019, 08:21 PM | #271 |
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Apparently the defendant gets to decide who sentences him/her.
Quote:
That strikes me as truly bizarre. It practically guarantees inequities in sentencing, beyond the problems built in to the system. |
29th September 2019, 08:30 PM | #272 |
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29th September 2019, 09:03 PM | #273 |
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29th September 2019, 09:04 PM | #274 |
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We pay judges to judge. They see hundreds, maybe thousands, of cases over their careers, and develop a philosophy of what constitutes a proper sentence for a particular crime. They also compare notes with other judges, and work out common sentencing guidelines for all defendants in their circuit. But for a jury, the case is unique. They have no frame of reference. I suspect that the result could be especially harsh or lenient sentencing based more on the history and personality of the defendant, rather than the specific crimes for which he was convicted.
I think Guyger, as a young, petite white woman and ex-police officer who says she felt threatened by a large black man in the dark, will be a much more sympathetic figure to the jury than some others might be in similar circumstances. |
29th September 2019, 11:52 PM | #275 |
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We see what we expect to see. Look at the classic experiment with watching basket ball and a gorilla walks across the screen and most of us do not notice the gorilla until we are told it is there.
I do accept that she went to the wrong apartment without realising but her subsequent actions only make sense if we consider she went into "hero cop" mode, once she had decided to be a hero that is all she focused on. And that isn't a mistake, that was a deliberate choice. |
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30th September 2019, 04:35 AM | #276 |
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30th September 2019, 08:13 AM | #277 |
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Could Amber Guyger be convicted of a charge other than murder?
Originally Posted by WFAA ABC 8 News
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30th September 2019, 08:19 AM | #278 |
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180 whole days for killing someone sitting in their house doing nothing.
/s/ Wow I don't know if I can live in a society with that much blood on it's hands. Really going for our pound of flesh out of this poor widdle scawwed woman who made a honest mistake that any of us could have made aren't we? |
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30th September 2019, 08:29 AM | #279 |
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The very first thing that has happened today at trial is that the defense has rested. Judge is now giving jury instructions.
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30th September 2019, 08:32 AM | #280 |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And again is this lady a cop or a scawwed little victim? She can't be both in the same instant to make counter excuses for the same action. |
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