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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incident , Texas cases

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Old 30th September 2019, 08:53 AM   #281
William Parcher
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Judge says that Manslaughter is an optional lesser charge. No mention of Criminal Negligent Homicide as being available..

Judge seemed to describe "Castle Law" but didn't use the term "castle law". Maybe that's because it's a common nickname for that law but isn't used in jury instruction.

Judge did speak quite a bit about "mistake of fact" and used that term many times.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:00 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I hope the prosecution will pound the fact that she was not acting as a police officer, and ask the jury whether it would be reasonable and lawful for a civilian to enter someone else's home and kill him, even if she was tired.
She wasn't tired she was horny and not paying any attention to her surroundings.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:06 AM   #283
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Just trying to catch up, are these closing arguments?
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:08 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Just trying to catch up, are these closing arguments?
Yes. Prosecution is making their closing arguments now, I assume we'll see the defense's soon and they jury will probably be sent to deliberations this afternoon at the latest.

We'll see a verdict sometimes between tomorrow and Friday I figure.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:09 AM   #285
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Closing arguments happening right now.

Prosecutor is talking about "Castle Doctrine" and is using that term repeatedly.

Here is a link to live feed: https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/09/30/...estream-day-7/
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:13 AM   #286
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Murder and Manslaughter are the only available charges/convictions.

My opinion is that she should be convicted of Manslaughter which carries a sentencing range of 2 to 20 years.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:21 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't understand your point. If she genuinely thought she was protecting herself killing an intruder in her home, I don't believe you can say it was murder. OTOH, her actions were so reckless and indifferent that you can't say it isn't an act of extreme negligence.
But she was wrong, and failed to meet the standards for self defense. She certainly intended to kill him when she shot him so manslaughter doesn't make sense as that is killing with out intent, and she certainly had intent.

Really the reasonable verdicts are murder or self defense. That could come into the sentencing area not in the crime.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:23 AM   #288
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Any conviction is better then nothing, but anything short of actual murder is an insult to the victim.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:25 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's what I was thinking.
Except she really did intend to kill him when she fired. It isn't like she was shooting at the TV and missed.

Well you thought you were defending your self at the time so we are going to ignore the actual facts of the case and law?
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:26 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Here's the thing. Police officers are trained to shoot to kill or at center mass. So what are the defense attorneys hoping for? Jury nullification?
That is common for police officers.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:28 AM   #291
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Is that the sound of Dallas police shining up riot gear I hear?
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:36 AM   #292
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Defense I'm not sure your "Yeah what's the big deal that she left him bleeding out on the carpet after shooting him? What does that have to do with this case?" strategy is a good idea there.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:44 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Defense I'm not sure your "Yeah what's the big deal that she left him bleeding out on the carpet after shooting him? What does that have to do with this case?" strategy is a good idea there.
She has a Punisher patch on her vest as well. Too bad people aren't more familiar with comic book characters. It's pretty subtle but the fact cops use The Punisher has always cracked me up, considering he should not be a role model for them ever.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:46 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
She has a Punisher patch on her vest as well. Too bad people aren't more familiar with comic book characters. It's pretty subtle but the fact cops use The Punisher has always cracked me up, considering he should not be a role model for them ever.
I love how in the comics Marvel has actually had the actual Punisher come down hard on the "No you shouldn't be using my symbol" side.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:48 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
She has a Punisher patch on her vest as well. Too bad people aren't more familiar with comic book characters. It's pretty subtle but the fact cops use The Punisher has always cracked me up, considering he should not be a role model for them ever.
I mean, that's pretty mild for a cop. At least she didn't have any weird statements inscribed on her service weapon like some other killer cops:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti...aver#Aftermath
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:49 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
She has a Punisher patch on her vest as well. Too bad people aren't more familiar with comic book characters. It's pretty subtle but the fact cops use The Punisher has always cracked me up, considering he should not be a role model for them ever.
May I introduce you to the State of Texas, whence the jury is pooled?

From outside, her defense was indefensible. But she is inside Texas. Shoot the hookers running away and all. Still fearing her taking a walk. Which would suck beyond words
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:51 AM   #297
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You guys did see the recovered social media posts she deleted I posted earlier?
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:51 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
May I introduce you to the State of Texas, whence the jury is pooled?

From outside, her defense was indefensible. But she is inside Texas. Shoot the hookers running away and all. Still fearing her taking a walk. Which would suck beyond words
I wouldnt be so sure. Texas really likes property rights, and Botham is aggrieved party here.

They have ruled in favor of citizens who shot cops executing no-knock warrants, because they respect both self-defense and property rights.

It's a toss up in Texas, could be a cop bootlicker jury, or a property rights jury.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #299
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A defense attorney is telling the jury that in order to convict "Amber," the jury must decide that it was unreasonable for "Amber" to believe that an intruder was in her apartment, and that it was unreasonable for her to believe that she was in mortal danger. I think it would be easy to decide that both were unreasonable. He's going on to claim that police training and standards shouldn't be applied here because she was not responding to a "dispatched call." I'm not sure her lawyer is helping her.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:05 AM   #300
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Does the prosecutor get to reply to the defense? I know they started with their closing statement, but do they get to rebut this nonsense?

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A defense attorney is telling the jury that in order to convict "Amber," the jury must decide that it was unreasonable for "Amber" to believe that an intruder was in her apartment, and that it was unreasonable for her to believe that she was in mortal danger. I think it would be easy to decide that both were unreasonable. He's going on to claim that police training and standards shouldn't be applied here because she was not responding to a "dispatched call." I'm not sure her lawyer is helping her.
They put her on the stand, and from what I can understand throughout this thread, that didn't help much either.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:06 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wouldnt be so sure. Texas really likes property rights, and Botham is aggrieved party here.

They have ruled in favor of citizens who shot cops executing no-knock warrants, because they respect both self-defense and property rights.

It's a toss up in Texas, could be a cop bootlicker jury, or a property rights jury.
The problem is that the property rights contingent, should they buy this mistake of fact angle, would support Guyger, too. So we come down to who they identify with as the one who's rights prevail: the honest mistake cop (and right to shoot whoever, whenever, which they kind of like down yonder), or a guy sitting at home?
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:07 AM   #302
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Question

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I love how in the comics Marvel has actually had the actual Punisher come down hard on the "No you shouldn't be using my symbol" side.
I love how cops wear the symbol but ignore the fact that he literally carries around a bullet with his name on it to punish himself if he ever kills an innocent.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:09 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A defense attorney is telling the jury that in order to convict "Amber," the jury must decide that it was unreasonable for "Amber" to believe that an intruder was in her apartment, and that it was unreasonable for her to believe that she was in mortal danger. I think it would be easy to decide that both were unreasonable. He's going on to claim that police training and standards shouldn't be applied here because she was not responding to a "dispatched call." I'm not sure her lawyer is helping her.
Ya, easy to show she could have thought she was in her apartment, really tough to show that she thought she was in mortal danger. A good defense should be sweeping that part under the rug.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:10 AM   #304
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Oh good, he brought up the marijuana and then says it's irrelevant, EXCEPT that it probably contributed to...something.

******* loser.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:14 AM   #305
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From: https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/09/30/...estream-day-7/

Quote:
“l don’t like this red doormat. I’m gonna go in and kill whoever is in here” Defense attorneys attack prosecutors argument as ridiculous that Amber Guyger should have noticed the red door mat outside Botham Jean’s door before she walked in and shot him.
Jesus that's what the defense got out of the red doormat argument?
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:14 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Any conviction is better then nothing, but anything short of actual murder is an insult to the victim.
I couldn't agree more. She is someone who murdered an innocent man because of her stupidity and her itchy trigger finger. She seemed to think of herself as a super-cop. She is, instead, a murderer. No manslaughter involved.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:17 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Does the prosecutor get to reply to the defense? I know they started with their closing statement, but do they get to rebut this nonsense?
....
Generally the prosecution gets the last word. It looks like the prosecutor is standing up to speak now.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:18 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Generally the prosecution gets the last word. It looks like the prosecutor is standing up to speak now.
Just caught that.

"Whoops, my bad" about sums it up
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:28 AM   #309
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Prosecutor currently hammering on the 'decision to kill made outside in the hallway' angle. I missed the bits in the trial where the covered it. If it was as the prosecutor is describing in his closing then it tips my mind into flat out murder.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:34 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Prosecutor currently hammering on the 'decision to kill made outside in the hallway' angle. I missed the bits in the trial where the covered it. If it was as the prosecutor is describing in his closing then it tips my mind into flat out murder.
Well, the prosecutor is hammering the undisputed fact that she didn't have to enter the apartment. She was safe outside the door, and she could have moved in either direction in the hallway. If there was a dangerous intruder, she exposed herself to him when she didn't have to.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:39 AM   #311
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Look at it this way.

Can you use the fact that you didn't know something as a defense when you intentionally didn't take the time to learn it?

Amber Guyger is put in front of two doors, blindfolded. One door leads to her apartment, the other door leads to Botham Jeans. She has a gun in her hand and starts to walk forward.

If she chooses to keep the keep the blindfold on until such time as she across one of the thresholds of the door and opens fire at whatever is inside does it magically make her innocent because of "mistake of fact?"

Your ignorance is not an excuse when it's willful.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:41 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, the prosecutor is hammering the undisputed fact that she didn't have to enter the apartment. She was safe outside the door, and she could have moved in either direction in the hallway. If there was a dangerous intruder, she exposed herself to him when she didn't have to.
Exactly. She supposedly came to the conclusion that there was an intruder while she was still outside, and not upon entering the apartment and seeing someone there. Prosecutor saying other LEOs called to testify said they would not have entered but would have taken cover and called for backup as SOP. Like I said I missed the actual testimony, but if that's not disputed, if she did indeed go into the apartment already having decided there was someone inside 'her' apartment then I don't see how she gets off on at least some serious charge.

Edit to add : and now he's hammering the 'anyone who lives in an apartment knows you might come home to a maintenance worker in your unit' bit I was hoping would get air time. Hopefully orange will be the new blue in this case. Disgusts me more and more as time goes on.

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Old 30th September 2019, 10:46 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Look at it this way.

Can you use the fact that you didn't know something as a defense when you intentionally didn't take the time to learn it?

Amber Guyger is put in front of two doors, blindfolded. One door leads to her apartment, the other door leads to Botham Jeans. She has a gun in her hand and starts to walk forward.

If she chooses to keep the keep the blindfold on until such time as she across one of the thresholds of the door and opens fire at whatever is inside does it magically make her innocent because of "mistake of fact?"

Your ignorance is not an excuse when it's willful.
You are proposing that she made a conscious decision not to know where she was?
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:48 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Look at it this way.

Can you use the fact that you didn't know something as a defense when you intentionally didn't take the time to learn it?

Amber Guyger is put in front of two doors, blindfolded. One door leads to her apartment, the other door leads to Botham Jeans. She has a gun in her hand and starts to walk forward.

If she chooses to keep the keep the blindfold on until such time as she across one of the thresholds of the door and opens fire at whatever is inside does it magically make her innocent because of "mistake of fact?"

Your ignorance is not an excuse when it's willful.
The point you've made a few other times:

I find it funny that she couldn't see who was in the apartment, but that she could see his hands, where they were going, and that she thought they were going for a gun.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:52 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The point you've made a few other times:

I find it funny that she couldn't see who was in the apartment, but that she could see his hands, where they were going, and that she thought they were going for a gun.
To be fair to a cop everything looks like a gun.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:04 AM   #316
plague311
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
To be fair to a cop everything looks like a gun.
Technically she never said she thought he had one, she thought he was going for one because...reasons.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:05 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Technically she never said she thought he had one, she thought he was going for one because...reasons.
Most likely because that's what she would have done.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Generally the prosecution gets the last word. It looks like the prosecutor is standing up to speak now.
I thought the defense gets the last word. Giving the prosecution the last word seems manifestly unjust.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:11 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought the defense gets the last word. Giving the prosecution the last word seems manifestly unjust.
Why would it be any more unjust one way or the other? The burden is on the prosecution in this scenario and so they should get as many opportunities to prove that burden as they can.

Coming from a guy that was acquitted by a jury of his peers, it's frustrating seeing the prosecution get the last say, but it makes sense to me. They have more responsibility.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought the defense gets the last word. Giving the prosecution the last word seems manifestly unjust.
Both sides had ample opportunity to lay out their cases. If the jury is swayed by the order in which they sum up, they should really not be on a jury.
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