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30th September 2019, 11:17 AM | #321 |
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30th September 2019, 11:35 AM | #322 |
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Not literally, but it's same point I made about her just deciding to shot Jean and making up the entire story after the fact... what would be functionally different to any external observer if that is what she had done?
Again my entire mindset throughout this entire process is cluelessness becomes functionally equivalent to just deciding to be wrong at a certain point, and this woman crossed that line, then went back and shot the line because she thought it was a snake. You can be; logically, morally, and in my opinion legally just be so wrong that you've waived your right to invoke your lack of knowledge as functionally any different then just choosing the wrong answer. She put so little mental effort into judging the "Is this valid scenario to shoot in or not?" question it has become functionally the same in my book as intentionally being wrong. Well the entire thread has proven the fact that Amber Guyger was capable of seeing details in situations where she couldn't see the situation. She missed the forest but still managed to shoot the tree. |
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30th September 2019, 11:38 AM | #323 |
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30th September 2019, 11:39 AM | #324 |
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30th September 2019, 11:48 AM | #325 |
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30th September 2019, 12:13 PM | #326 |
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30th September 2019, 12:28 PM | #327 |
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Did you have about 20 indicators that you were going into the wrong bathroom?
This isn't just an extremely simplistic comparison, it's also not even close to the same thing. Why must ridiculous comparisons always be used in these scenarios? Just use the one we have. She almost went out of her way in every step taken to do the wrong thing. She's guilty, send her to prison. |
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30th September 2019, 12:37 PM | #328 |
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Again she didn't glance at her phone and accidentally hit a pedestrian.
She drove down the road the wrong way for 10 miles and hit a pedestrian. She didn't make an "honest mistake." See made a series of unreasonable ones. |
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30th September 2019, 01:01 PM | #329 |
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All excusable till she thought that the first sign of an unexpected human necessitated execution
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30th September 2019, 01:41 PM | #330 |
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30th September 2019, 01:44 PM | #331 |
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30th September 2019, 01:46 PM | #332 |
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I get it, you made a harmless mistake. One that I bet most people have made.
This was completely and entirely different. Like I said, she almost had to go out of her way to make the wrong choice whenever one was presented. It should result in a significant amount of prison time. |
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30th September 2019, 01:58 PM | #333 |
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30th September 2019, 02:02 PM | #334 |
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Procedural question: If the jury determines the sentence, will there be an additional proceeding for that purpose? Or do they come back with a guilty verdict and a sentence at the same time?
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30th September 2019, 05:05 PM | #335 |
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Separate proceeding. Assuming the defendant elected sentencing by jury, the same jury would determine the sentence. The defense can provide evidence and arguments for mitigating factor, and the prosecution and rebut those arguments. This would happen right after the verdict. Maybe the next day.
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30th September 2019, 05:47 PM | #336 |
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I did not mean to imply that she has some blood lust and that she has always wanted to kill someone and this was finally her chance. But based on her testimony that she was going in to find the threat and didn't call for backup because she was at home, my conclusion would be that she felt like she could go in a and apprehend the bad guy on her own and if anything went slightly wrong the castle law would allow her to just shoot.
That is, if we believe her testimony is truthful and accurate. I do not. I don't think she was going in to find the threat. That's ridiculous. I don't think she thought she didn't need to call for backup because she was at home. that makes no sense. I think she said those things because she was thinking about what her lawyers told her and the key points they wanted to get across to the jury. She was saying what she thought she was supposed to say. I think this happened very fast. From the time she took out her key to the time she shot was probably about 3 seconds. I think when she put the key in the door, the door started to open and she just continued that motion. While the door was opening, she saw it was cracked and her some noise, but by then the door was already open. There was a man standing in her apartment who didn't belong there. So she kept the door open with the left hand and drew her gun. Yelled, "Let me see your hands!" Jean came at her yelling "Hey, hey, hey!" which a very reasonable response. He kept coming, so she shot him. I don't think she had time for deliberation before opening the door. It all happened too fast. If that is what happened, she should have stuck with telling it like that instead of trying to interject all kinds of buzzwords and justifications into the narrative. That hurt her far more than it helped. |
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30th September 2019, 06:43 PM | #337 |
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I largely agree, particularly about the very short amount of time between her placing the key in the lock and firing her gun. Given that short time I found her testimony about hearing and seeing Jean moving around to be not credible. That testimony seemed to me to be intended to bolster her claim of self defense.
I could be wrong but I thought Guyger testified that after the door opened slightly she heard sounds, drew her gun, then pushed the door fully open to see Jean. Even more damning in my mind. |
30th September 2019, 09:59 PM | #338 |
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Here's a quickly cleaned up transcript of the jury instructions from the automated closed captions. This just goes to the point where it gets to the generic boiler-plate stuff. No real surprises here. Pretty standard stuff.
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30th September 2019, 11:07 PM | #339 |
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30th September 2019, 11:34 PM | #340 |
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That is correct. The whole concept of the castle law is that an intruder in someone's home is automatically presumed to be a deadly threat.
(Just to be clear, that means the person must a have reasonable belief that the other person unlawfully and with force entered their home.) The idea is that if a person in the security of their own home and someone unlawfully breaks in, they don't have to wait and hesitate until they can be sure that the person has gun or deadly weapon and has an intent to kill them before using deadly force to protect themselves. The bad guy sure isn't going to hesitate. So someone in their home should not be forced to choose between going to prison for years on a murder charge because they did wait to see the gun, or hesitating and getting shot by the bad guy. It is obviously controversial. On one hand it makes sense, but on the other it is problematic. ETA: What you quoted isn't actually the definition. The definition is a couple paragraphs above. What you quoted is the court's instruction to the jury on how mistake of fact is to be considered in this case. ETA: Note that in Texas mistake of fact and self-defense are ordinary defenses, not affirmative defenses. That means the prosecution has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that there was not a mistake of fact or that there was not a reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary or that there was not a reasonable belief that someone entered their home unlawfully and with force. |
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1st October 2019, 12:00 AM | #341 |
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So not "definition," but a description of how it applies to the case at hand. But Guyger was not in the security of "her" home. She was safely outside, and she placed herself in danger by entering when she had multiple alternatives. That has to have some relevance to the validity of the castle doctrine. |
1st October 2019, 12:12 AM | #342 |
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Anybody have any explanations on the bullet trajectory? I don't know much about firearms.
The prosecution explains it by saying he was getting up off the couch. But then he would have had to get up and take several steps forward and then fall back. And not fall forward, the direction he would have been heading. Seems a bit unlikely, but plausible. That would also have the issue of explaining the bullet in the wall. If her first shot was into his chest as he was sitting on the couch, why would she have a second shot way up and to the left? That seems odd to me. What about the defense's claim that the shot into the wall was the second shot from a "double-tap"? Does that seem reasonable? They say the first shot hit him in the chest when he was standing and leaning over and the second shot was after the gun recoiled up and to the left. But does that happen? I would think someone who has been a police officer for five years would have quite a bit of experience on the gun range. And they say officers are trained to so the "double-tap". I would think that would mean a lot of practice to make sure the shots are fired at the same place and the second shot doesn't go off target because of the recoil. That would be the whole point of training and learning and practicing that type of shot. I would think that would be drilled into muscle memory. How about this idea: When she opened the door, Jean stood up or was already standing and came toward her. That makes sense to me. She was surprised and nervous, so her first shot went high and to the left. Jean immediately ducked, bending at his knees and waist. She immediately corrected her aim for the second quick shot and hit him in the chest. He fell backward and lay where he was found. It seems like that could fit with all the evidence. |
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1st October 2019, 12:54 AM | #343 |
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Correct. As I said in the ETA the "definition" is a couple paragraphs up from what you quoted. But, again, that is customized for this case.
From Texas Penal Code 8.02, just the definition would simply be a "mistake" that is "a reasonable belief about a matter of fact." We've had thousands of posts going over all the intricacies of this issue, so I'll keep it short. She didn't have to be in her home. She only had to have a reasonable belief that she was confronting someone who had unlawfully and with force entered her home. I don't think she deliberated at the door. I don't think she had time. She put the key in the door, the door stared swinging up. There was a guy that shouldn't be there. But even with that aside, if she had alternatives, she could have chosen those. That would have been good. But was she was not legally required to use those alternatives. She would not be reckless unless her actions were a gross deviation of a standard of care that she knew could result in someone's death. Walking into your own home, even if you think a burglar might be in there, is not illegal. It is not criminally reckless. Not a good idea. But not a crime. Once she had the door open and perceived a threat (which I think was a simultaneous action without deliberation), under Texas law she had no duty to retreat. Retreating might be a good idea. In this case it would have been a very good idea. But legally, the law says a person does not have to if they don't want to. They can stand their ground and defend themselves with necessary force. |
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1st October 2019, 02:51 AM | #344 |
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No we've had thousands of posts splitting every hair to make excuses for his woman.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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1st October 2019, 03:26 AM | #345 |
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I can see one line in the summing-up that would be grounds for a guilty verdict straight away:
Quote:
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1st October 2019, 03:44 AM | #346 |
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1st October 2019, 04:25 AM | #347 |
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I imagine that is what all the jury deliberation will be about. Nothing else is really in question here.
I would agree that her behavior leading up to the shooting falls outside of what most would consider prudent behavior and that murder is the appropriate conclusion, but I'm not optimistic. Manslaughter seems like the likely conclusion, and while that isn't what I'd hope for, I am glad that option exists as a stopgap to discourage outright acquittal. To be honest, I could honestly see her "series of mistakes" defense being more useful during sentencing. She is guilty. Whether or not her series of screw-ups should reduce her culpability should be considered after the conviction. |
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1st October 2019, 04:50 AM | #348 |
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Yeah, I tend to agree, but I think it shouldn't. Manslaughter is a very specific crime that denies specific intent to cause harm or death, and ISTR from a little way upthread that Guyger specifically testified that her intent when shooting was to kill. Finding her guilty of manslaughter is pretty close to jury nullification. Given the statement of intent, it seems she should be either guilty of murder or not guilty; any nuance on level of guilt should be a matter for sentencing.
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1st October 2019, 06:19 AM | #349 |
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This is actually the most fitting explanation. I don't think he took several steps forward, his shoes were found only a few feet from the couch and the couch can be seen close in the background in the cop cam footage. He stumbled a few feet forward, might have collapsed on his butt and laid down. There was no way possible he was standing when he got shot. The ME said that in definitive terms. Ducking doesn't explain the shots any better than him getting off of the couch. If it was a double-tap it makes it even more complicated since he would have had to duck in a fraction of a second before the second shot got off.
Remember, he was wearing earbuds. I don't think he heard her open the door, I don't think he realized she was coming in until the light from the door opening caught his attention. Like you said, it happened in a couple of seconds, and there's really no firm evidence Jean said anything at all. Also, she could have thought he was going to continue rising since he was getting off of the couch. Instead, when he got shot he stayed slumped over a bit. It is a case about someone entering the wrong apartment and shooting someone, it's an odd case. She might be a poor shot, she might have double tapped so fast that the gun didn't level on her second shot. The gun goes up, she was amped up and didn't shoot well. I would guess so. Why would he be standing though? I don't get that part. This happened too fast for him to be already standing by the time she fires. Why you think that seems odd to me. She followed literally zero percent of her training. If this was her using any of her police training she is the absolute ********* cop we have ever heard of with absolutely no situational awareness at all. We're expected to believe she missed a dozen indicators that she was on the wrong floor, walked into an apartment, missed absolutely everything there showing she was in the wrong apartment, and then ******* shot a guy. She was high on adrenaline, and she couldn't contain it. Nothing else needs to be explained. She had only shot at someone once before, and she even sucked that time because she was the only one that shot. Just because she practices a lot doesn't mean she's good. There are plenty of people that practice things and still suck at them. (Take plague311 and Call of Duty for example) Again, why? Why would he be standing in his living room with the TV on and eating a bowl of ice cream? He wasn't coming towards her either, he was leaning over when he got shot, and if he was moving towards her he would have fell forward. He's over 6 foot and 245+ lbs. If he had forward inertia that's the direction he would have fallen in, but he didn't. It doesn't fit the evidence. Why would she be surprised? Nervous maybe. She has claimed the whole time that she went into the apartment expecting an intruder. I don't think she was shocked, I think she was itching to pull the trigger. I vehemently disagree. Jean would have had to duck in an instant to practically a 90 degree angle, and she would have had to corrected her aim excessively fast after missing a layup shot to hit a smaller facing target. If he was moving forward, and immediately ducked and got shot, he would have fallen forward, not backward. Even the ME said this isn't a movie. People that get shot don't get blasted backwards in a dramatic scene. |
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1st October 2019, 06:57 AM | #350 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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1st October 2019, 07:46 AM | #351 |
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A Texas man fatally shoots intruder and then goes back to bed
Originally Posted by CNN
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1st October 2019, 07:55 AM | #352 |
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Her way-off aim with that wall shot may have possibly been because she was shooting with one hand. I think that cops are mostly trained to shoot with both hands on the gun to improve accuracy and reduce recoil effect. I'm not certain.
Does anyone know how they determined the order of shots? I missed that part of the trial. There seemed to be no dispute that the first shot hit Jean and the second shot missed. |
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1st October 2019, 08:03 AM | #353 |
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Looking at this part of the jury's instruction:
Quote:
This murderer is gonna walk. |
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1st October 2019, 08:16 AM | #354 |
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1st October 2019, 08:17 AM | #355 |
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I read that his earbuds were found on the floor near his body. I didn't see that part of the trial so I don't know details. Were the buds wired or wireless? I presume that they were wired but possibly not because a fall to the ground could dislodge wireless buds.
Was testimony given that the (wired) buds were pulled from his ears as he got up from the couch, or what? |
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1st October 2019, 08:25 AM | #356 |
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There are two witnesses who testified about Jean saying things.
1) His immediate neighbor testified that he heard two different voices. He could not tell the gender of the speakers or what was said but he testified that it was two different people. Then came two gunshots. He also said that the tone of the voices indicated that both parties were surprised with each other. 2) Amber Guyger testified that Jean aggressively shouted, "Hey! Hey! Hey!" |
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1st October 2019, 08:28 AM | #357 |
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Like many posters here, I think that is a shoe-in argument, that she could walk up to the wrong door and think, in a split second, that she was confronting an intruder.
My issue comes with immediately resorting to lethal force. But Texas law seems to say it does not matter, she must be found not guilty. I think many of us are trying to see her driving up one too many floors and having her face buried in her cell phone as being so out in left field that it is unreasonable....well, as a self-defense mechanism so that we don't have to accept what that implies under Texas law. It means she walks. |
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1st October 2019, 08:31 AM | #358 |
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If I were on the jury, I would consider the prosecution to have proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that the belief that the deceased was an intruder was not reasonable, by pointing out that he could have been carrying out maintenance work on behalf of the building manager.
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1st October 2019, 08:34 AM | #359 |
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Over/Under on months until the first porn offer to Amber Guyger?
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1st October 2019, 08:36 AM | #360 |
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