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10th November 2019, 11:57 AM | #201 |
Penultimate Amazing
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[quote=Vixen;12885148]Instead of you asking me incessant questions, what about if you attempt to answer some of mine?
I've answered your questions. Now, will you answer mine above? They're simple 'yes' or 'no' questions. Or, will you ignore them like you have done so far? |
10th November 2019, 11:57 AM | #202 |
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Guilter-nutters lied about Sollecito on the day of the Nencini provisional-reconviction in 2014.
The fact remains - he and his girlfriend had been across the border into Austria when he got the news of the verdict. He and she then **returned** to Italy and checked into that lodging, where eventually the Carabinieri served notice on the conditions mandated by the court. Of everything that had gone on over the years, this was the blandest, most straightforward of them all. Guilter-nutters, on the other hand and typically, made it out like The Great Escape, with Sollecito as Steve McQueen going overland by motorcycle to the frontier. If nothing else, it showed the guilter-nutters being unwilling to be led by evidence, while they invented guilt-sounding scenarios out of whole cloth. |
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
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10th November 2019, 12:16 PM | #203 |
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I was curious about this 'snowstorm' that no other report mentioned which I found odd. I looked up the weather history for Udine on Jan.30, 2014, the day Sollecito was "caught" at the border.
Odd....no snowstorm was recorded. The weather that day stayed above freezing in the 40's F and was mostly cloudy with some "light rain". https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/...th=1&year=2014 I suspect Hillary Clinton managed to force the weather history website to post a fake weather report. ETA: There's probably an email from her somewhere directing them to do so. |
10th November 2019, 12:24 PM | #204 |
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I think it's more than likely that the PGP/TJMK got their information from the completely misleading news media reports that repeatedly used the words "caught" and/or "stopped at the border". Those words strongly imply that Sollecito was attempting to flee Italy which was false.
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10th November 2019, 12:26 PM | #205 |
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I'm still trying to find PM Crini's requests. The problem is that the transcripts are not machine readable and somehow protected from being "OCR'ed" by the use of a "standard" OCR procedure. (But I'm working on it )
ETA: I wonder if anyone remembers reporting about these "requests" from back then, because for now I haven't found anything reliable... Yes, the final part reads:
Quote:
Quote:
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10th November 2019, 01:18 PM | #206 |
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If they'd been "stopped at the border" while in Austria, that would have meant that someone tried to prevent them from reentering Italy!!!!!
But this small part of the seven-year four-month saga shows **both** how the press willingly and knowingly skewed the record against Sollecito (and Knox), and how the two (now defunct) PMF message boards, as well as TMJK and the fake-Wiki also knowingly skewed things - against the evidence. But to repeat, this wee episode is one of the most obscure, bland episodes of them all. It proves the lengths some people went to, to dig real low to purposely spread false info detrimental to the then-provisionally convicted, now cleared. |
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
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10th November 2019, 01:22 PM | #207 |
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If the Mafia-led, Masonic-funded US-media conspiracy could free two obviously guilty people from the clutches of the Italian Supreme Court, as well as pay off lower court judges like Hellmann to keep him in fast cars....
What would it take to fudge a weather report!? C'mon Stacyhs - think! |
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
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10th November 2019, 04:13 PM | #208 |
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But, Chris, it was impossible for this to be transfer contamination as Vixen has claimed that it's virtually impossible for DNA to transfer after 24 hours. So, seeing how the source of the DNA had died two years before the murder, one has to ask: was he really dead? Maybe he just faked his death and was really the one who killed Ms. Lee!
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10th November 2019, 04:42 PM | #209 |
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11th November 2019, 04:28 AM | #210 |
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Finally found it. It's on pages 138-141 of the transcript of the January 20th, 2014 hearing. The exchange between PM Crini and judge Nencini is quite fascinating...
google: |
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11th November 2019, 05:39 AM | #211 |
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Have I read this correctly?
Meaning: am I correct in reading into this that PM Crini's rationale for requesting preventative detention was to guarantee the "execution of sentence" should the ISC eventually sign off on the convictions? And that further, that Crini fully expected that the then-future Cassazione judgement would be acquittal!?!?!? Am I reading that right? |
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
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11th November 2019, 08:51 AM | #212 |
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First, a minor technical language issue in the transcript and its translation.
Where the Italian transcript has "Va behe" there is no translation given. Collins Reverso suggests that "behe" should be "bene". The translation for the phrase "Va bene" is "Alright". Second, although the prosecutor does not explicitly say that the expectation is that the CSC will overturn the verdict, it is remarkable that the prosecutor is reluctant to request any execution of the provisional judgment of the Nencini Appeal Court and leaves it to the judge. In my opinion, this suggests that the prosecutor was not at all confident that the Nencini Appeal Court provisional judgment of conviction would be upheld. It also appears that the prosecutor was concerned that an order for detention would lead to a separate appeal by the defense against detention which would be accepted by the CSC. It would follow that the prosecutor did not wish to pursue extradition and detention for Amanda Knox, and would not have requested the Minister of Justice to initiate an extradition. This supports the hypothesis that the Nencini Court of Appeal provisional conviction was merely an attempt to set up judicial protection for the police and Mignini from prosecution for their misconduct. |
11th November 2019, 09:11 AM | #213 |
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30 Jan 2014 Day 11 of the Nencini hearing it was established:
Both parties have an automatic appeal to the Supreme Court. Extradition requests and detainment of Sollecito will be deferred until then. 20 Jan 2014 Day 10, Crini: finished by urging the court to convict the pair and to take precautionary measures to ensure they serve their sentence, such as the removal of Sollecito’s passport, house arrest or immediate detention. Media reaction from The Daily Beast has the following reaction: Conventional wisdom in Italy, based on how presiding judge Alessandro Nencini has been ruling so far and how the high court ruled on the acquittal, is that Knox and Sollecito stand a good chance of having their murder convictions upheld. |
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11th November 2019, 10:27 AM | #214 |
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The translation of some sections needs some further analysis. For example, the Italian text states:
"P.G. - Si.. Il Procuratore Generala richiede che all'esito di eventuale pronunzia di condanna la Corte accompagni la stessa all'applicazione di una misura cautelare che sia idonea ad assicurare l'esecuzione della sentenza nel momento in cui dovesse formarsi un qiudicato di condanna definitivo. Questa sarebbe la... non so se ho... " By breaking this up into clauses or phrases, I get the following from Google Translate: "P. G. - Yes. The Attorney General [Prosecutor General] demands [requires, requests] that to the outcome of a possible sentence [conviction] the Court accompanies the same a precautionary measure that is suitable to ensure the execution of the sentence at the time in which it {the Supreme Court of Cassation, assuming an appeal by the defendants} should form a definitive sentence of conviction. This would be ... I don't know if I ..." This seems to leave it up to the judge to decide any measure and not a demand for detention of the defendants upon provisional conviction. It is clearly not a demand or request for detention. The final disposition in terms of detention or other measure against the defendants is to be left to the final definitive judgment. ETA: The prosecutor had the authority to appeal the Nencini Appeal Court decision on the security measures, by asking the CSC to increase the measures to detention or to refer those measures to another appeal court. The prosecutor did not appeal the Nencini Appeal Court decision of security measures consisting of no detention. |
11th November 2019, 11:26 AM | #215 |
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There you are, Vixen! Would you care to address my questions now? If not, why not?
Vixen, will you admit that 1. you have no evidence that Wikileaks found an email from Clinton saying she would look into the case? 2. that Vinci said there was some a)compatible* DNA of Knox on the bra, b) he did not say Knox's DNA was on the bra, and c) he concluded that the DNA could not be used to identify the donor? 3.Will you admit the David Balding's own computer program ruled out Knox's DNA was on the bra? *Remember that compatibility is not the same thing as matching. ETA: 4. Will you admit that there was no snowstorm the night that Sollecito checked into a hotel in Udine and that the evidence shows he was not attempting to flee Italy? |
11th November 2019, 11:56 AM | #216 |
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'Compatibility' is the correct legal term used in court to identify fingerprint, footprint, shoeprint or DNA sample. This is because these qualities do not need to be matched absolutely. Ten to eighteen key points where they do match is statistically significant that the print or DNA was not left by some random person but the person identified as it being 'compatible' to.
Local weather condition can be specific to small areas for short periods of time and thus do not necessarily get recorded. Newspapers generally show an overall weather symbol. Perhaps a sun peeking out behind a cloud, or a few drops of rain, or just cloud. You are talking rubbish when you say because you can't find a mention it can't have happened. |
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11th November 2019, 12:53 PM | #217 |
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Compatible absolutely is not the word used when a definite identification has been made. Compatible with only means that it can't be ruled out, not that it definitely is.
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11th November 2019, 12:55 PM | #218 |
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I quoted several instances from the Massei Report and from Stefanoni where the term "compatible" was NOT used. Instead they identified the DNA as being Knox's, Kercher's, Guede's, and Sollecito's so your claim has been already proved wrong.
Stefanoni:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post12884509
Quote:
Did Vinci say that Knox's DNA was on the bra hook? Did Vinci say that the samples could not be used to identify the source?
Quote:
Quote:
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If you want to claim there was an unreported freak snowstorm right over Sollecito forcing him to abandon his flight to Austria, then go ahead. There is no law preventing you from making such a ludicrous and completely unsupported assertion. |
11th November 2019, 01:00 PM | #219 |
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deleted
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11th November 2019, 02:08 PM | #220 |
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11th November 2019, 02:44 PM | #221 |
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There are three points regarding using "compatible" or "probable" in an attempt to secure a conviction in most jurisdictions, including specifically Italy:
1. Italian law CPP Article 533 requires that proof of guilt must be established beyond a reasonable doubt in order for a court (judge) to legally pronounce a sentence of conviction. 2. Italian law CPP Article 192 paragraph 2 requires that a court (judge) cannot infer the existence of a fact from circumstantial evidence unless that evidence is serious, precise, and consistent. The requirements of precision and consistency would thus rule out use of circumstantial evidence that was only "compatible" with an identification of a suspect in connection with a crime. To identify a suspect in connection with a crime, the evidence must be precise and consistent. 3. In the Knox - Sollecito case, the Massei and Nencini courts did not follow Italian laws including CPP Articles 192 and 153 in provisionally convicting Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape of Kercher. ETA: The Italian text of CPP Article 192.2: 2. L'esistenza di un fatto non può essere desunta da indizi a meno che questi siano gravi, precisi e concordanti. Google translation: 2. The existence of a fact cannot be deduced from indications unless these are serious, precise and consistent. (The other translation above is from The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. Gialuz, Luparia, and Scarpa; Kluwer (c) 2014) The meaning of "serious" here is "important", "significant", "consequential". Source of the Italian text: https://lexscripta.it/codici/codice-...e/articolo-192 |
11th November 2019, 03:27 PM | #222 |
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As I said:
This is because these qualities do not need to be matched absolutely. Ten to eighteen key points where they do match is statistically significant that the print or DNA was not left by some random person but the person identified as it being 'compatible' to. 'Compatible' or 'not compatible' are the words they use in court. Perhaps Stacyhs had a bad Italian translation that came up with 'matched' instead. The translations of transcripts on 'themurderofmeredithkercher.com' correctly uses the word, 'compatible'. Why? Because it is a court of law and only BARD is required not 100% absolute proof. |
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11th November 2019, 03:32 PM | #223 |
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Poor translations.
Are you sure you weren't looking at weather forecasts. I get a daily hourly weather forecast from BBC and it failed to mention the quite heavy snow fall we had a few days ago. Anyone looking back will think, ah, this proves it never snowed because the forecast doesn't say it. |
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11th November 2019, 04:49 PM | #224 |
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Perhaps you need to read the quotes I provided earlier from the Massei MR yet again. They are quite clear that they are identifying the source and do not use the word "compatible" or "matched". Next excuse!
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Try again. Only one quote uses the word "matched" and it is from an English language newspaper article written by Barbie Nadeau. As you and TJMK have said many times, Barbie is fluent in Italian and reported Stefanoni as testifying in court:
Quote:
Try again. |
11th November 2019, 04:51 PM | #225 |
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
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11th November 2019, 05:08 PM | #226 |
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The blood found at the scene was of blood group O+. This is compatible with the suspect. The suspect is still in the frame. But it's also compatible with a huge number of other people. It doesn't implicate the suspect, it's not incriminating.
Conversely, if the DNA in that blood is sequenced in its entirety and found to correspond exactly to the suspect's genome, we would not be using the word "compatible" any more. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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11th November 2019, 05:20 PM | #227 |
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Hahahahahaha! See above and stop embarrassing yourself.
Quote:
The facts are: 1. There was no snowstorm on Jan. 30, 2014. 2. Sollecito's car was videotaped at 3 PM 16 miles south of Udine which is 37 miles from the Austrian border which places him 53 miles from the border. 3. It does not take 10 hours to drive 53 miles in light rain. (3 PM to 1:00 AM) |
11th November 2019, 05:35 PM | #228 |
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11th November 2019, 09:06 PM | #229 |
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Erin Murphy's book Inside the Cell
There is a bit more on the deceased man's DNA within the Annie Le case here, which is excerpted from her book. "But a second person’s DNA was also found, ominously recovered in significant quantities from samples that included the waistband of the victim’s underwear. "
Her discussion of the Gary Letterman case is very helpful, and Leiterman's DNA along with John Ruelas' DNA found on items from the Jane Mixer murder is a good example of DNA contamination. Her book does not deal directly with the Knox/Sollecito case, but it has clear lessons about it involving DNA. |
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11th November 2019, 11:32 PM | #230 |
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It's interesting to attempt a quantitative comparison of an imprecise identification test, such as a test of blood type (aka blood group), which is able to produce either weak evidence of compatibility or strong evidence of non-compatibility, with a test such as STR DNA profiling, considered highly precise if done according to proper international protocols.
The ABO and Rh blood groups occur throughout human populations, but the distributions of blood group frequencies differs somewhat among various countries or geographical regions. As stated in the posts quoted, O+ is the most common group, but the percent of population with that group ranges from a high of about 86% in Chile to a low of about 27% in a number of countries and in South Asia. The least common group, AB-, ranges from a high of about 1% to a low of about 0.01%; the US percentage is about 0.6%, which would amount to roughly 1.5 million persons with that blood type. Thus, it is not uncommon for two individuals to have the same blood type and an identification test based on blood type with certainty can show strong evidence of non-compatibility. To illustrate the potential precision of STR DNA profiling, I present an idealized and naive model using 15 pairs of 6-sided fair dice; each pair represents an STR locus, and the number of pairs models Stefanoni's use of 15 STR loci for the autosomal chromosomes. In the model, for each locus pair, one die represents the mother's and the other the father's contribution. However, the detection method cannot distinguish the paternal from the maternal contribution, so while there are 42 possible outcomes per model locus, the probability of any one outcome at any one model locus = 2/42 = 1/21*. Assuming independence of the model loci, the probability of any one unique outcome for the 15 model loci = (1/21)15, that is, about 2 x 10-40, a very small number but, of course, not zero. The modeling exercise illustrates the high level of precision that potentially can be achieved, although the result in a real case may benefit from consideration of the allele frequencies in the population. The result does not apply to a mixture of DNA, where a similar model would require multiple pairs of dice at each locus, and one would not know which dice to pair at each locus. *Alternatively, one could assume only the upper diagonal (or only the lower diagonal) contributes, since the maternal and paternal contributions can't be distinguished in the detection (for example, 6,1 cannot be distinguished from 1,6). There are 21 members in the upper (or lower) diagonal. Again, the probability of any one result for a pair of dice is then 1/21. |
12th November 2019, 07:47 AM | #231 |
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I know next to nothing about any of this, except for what is googleable. Meaning, I am probably like a lot of Italian judges, except as M/B pointed out in their 2015 motivation report judges there tend to see themselves as the expert of the expert.
Still, as this googleable chart of frequency/rarity of blood types shows, "compatibility" can mean many things depending on the context:
Quote:
But if your suspect has AB-negative, and AB-negative is found at the scene, compatibility means more. However, just saying something is compatible with no context means nothing. One could go through the 119 instances of compatibility which Judge Massei found in his 2010 guilt motivations report and dismiss them all on the grounds above. It's why the 2015 Supreme Court's motivation report added "specific" and "precise" to issues of compatibility..... which when you do to the issues in this prosecution renders any guilt case to the dustbin. |
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12th November 2019, 08:23 AM | #232 |
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Yes.
And the Massei court judgment of provisional conviction did not follow the requirements of Italian procedural law, CPP Articles 192.2 and 533. The Hellmann appeal court quashed the Massei judgment on these legal grounds. The Nencini appeal court judgment of provisional conviction also violated CPP Articles 192.2 and 533. Therefore, the Marasca CSC panel, as a matter of law, quashed the Nencini appeal court judgment and finally acquitted Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape charges. |
12th November 2019, 10:10 AM | #233 |
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No, blood group O would not be 'compatible' with a huge number of other people. It MATCHES more than half the population. You are either group O or you are not. In a forensic crime scene this means sweet zippo.
A DNA sequence does not have to 'match in its entirety' in a criminal court. All that's needed is a ten-allele match in an English court to provide sound suspect identification (together with other evidence). In the Kercher case 15-alleles were found of Mez on Raff's knife and a full-house 17-alleles of Sollecito found on the victim's underwear. Not even the defence could argue with this. |
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12th November 2019, 10:17 AM | #234 |
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12th November 2019, 10:42 AM | #235 |
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I do not think these words (or indeed many words) mean what you think they do. That is precisely the meaning of "compatible". Any finding of blood of group O+ is "compatible" with - well, me, and an awful lot of other people. If somoene is not O+ then the blood is incompatible with them, and rules them out. But compatible just means that you're not ruled out. Not that you have been implicated. |
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12th November 2019, 10:54 AM | #236 |
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12th November 2019, 10:57 AM | #237 |
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12th November 2019, 11:23 AM | #238 |
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Those interested in UK standards for DNA STR profiling in forensics may wish to see the following:
https://royalsociety.org/-/media/abo...for-courts.pdf Here's two quotes from the above source: "The frequency of occurrence of a specific allele (ie a specific number of repeating units) at the tested locus in a specific population provides a measure of how common that allele is in that population. This information is essential for calculating match probabilities. If only one STR were analysed, there would be many people with the same allele, purely by chance. It is therefore necessary to analyse a number of different STR loci to ensure that the chance of two unrelated people having matching DNA profiles is very small. Over time, the number of different STR loci analysed has increased as technology has developed. Since 2014 in the UK, 16 loci are examined. In some Scottish cases, 23 loci are examined." "The principal method of forensic DNA analysis is to consider the profile of the STRs. If only one STR section of DNA were analysed, many people would share the same DNA profile. Therefore, it is necessary to analyse a number of different STRs to ensure that the chance of two unrelated people’s STR profiles matching is acceptably small. Over time, the number of STRs analysed in human DNA profiling has been increased to the point that the chance of two unrelated people sharing the same DNA profile has become infinitesimally small. Table 1 illustrates the evolution of the numbers of STRs analysed. There are various commercial analytical kits containing the chemicals required for the analysis of groups of STRs at the same time. These kits are called multiplexes. In addition to the STRs, each of the systems also includes a test to determine whether the sample comes from a male or a female." The UK used 10 loci in their DNA profile testing prior to 2014, but abandoned that as inadequate, and since 2014 have used 16 loci in their DNA profile testing. In Scotland, 23 loci are used. (See Appendix A1.2 of the source.) To propose, as some PGP apparently do, that a partial match of DNA profiles is evidence of identity is absurd. In analogy, suppose we encounter persons named "John Allen Johnson", "John Brian Johnson", and "John Bryan Johnson". Should we then suppose that any two these three John Johnsons are the same person? Similarly, if two DNA profiles of 16 loci each happen to be identical in some 10, 11, or even 15 loci, should they be assumed to come from the same individual? It is clear that one cannot make that assumption; if two individuals are shown to be different in even one DNA locus of, for example, 16 STR loci, they are obviously different persons. If two individuals were the same in all 16 STR loci, there would be a strong probability that they were identical twins. |
12th November 2019, 12:20 PM | #239 |
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LOL! Exactly what are you, Vixen, other than a layman? You have a long history of giving 'examples'. May we see your scientific credentials? What? You have none? SHOCK! I notice that you don't dispute the truth of those examples; instead you attack Rolfe and me. Why is that? No, a credible journalist cannot "use any term" they "like". A credible journalist, when QUOTING someone, will repeat exactly what was said, not "any term" they "like". Barbie Nadeau, that paragon of journalistic integrity so often touted by the PGP, QUOTED Stefanoni's testimony. If Barbie misquoted what Stefanoni said, then that's on her. But let's get back to the subject of the discussion which was, as you claimed:
Quote:
Here's an interesting quote from Stefanoni's testimony:
Quote:
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But I thought you said they always use the the word 'compatible' or 'not compatible' in court? |
12th November 2019, 12:30 PM | #240 |
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I see Vixen is still refusing to answer my questions. What could possibly be the reason why? Hmmmmmm.....
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