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11th September 2020, 02:35 AM | #81 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th September 2020, 02:43 AM | #82 |
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The person who established this trend on the thread was SuburbanTurkey. In post #1 SuburbanTurkey refers first to Kyle Rittenhouse and then to just "Kyle". By post #7 SuburbanTurkey is talking about Kyle and Rosenbaum. By post #9 Thermal is referring to Kyle Rittenhouse as Captain Kyle. SuburbanTurkey does it again in post #10. smartcooky bucks the trend for 1 post in post #11
I don't think your explanation holds water. |
11th September 2020, 02:50 AM | #83 |
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11th September 2020, 03:03 AM | #84 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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11th September 2020, 03:10 AM | #85 |
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How about don't bring your ******* gun to a protest in the first place?
You start bringing guns to places where there is likely to be intensely conflicting attitudes, and its a recipe for disaster. People bring guns to these sorts of things for only two reasons 1. To participate in an intimidating dick wagging competition. 2. Because they intend to shoot people if things turn nasty. Bringing the guns ramps up the tension and the fear. We have seen the result! |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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11th September 2020, 03:29 AM | #86 |
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Its not a protest, it's a riot. You can see that from the dumpster being set on fire and pushed towards a gas station that Rittenhouse put out. The "protesters" had also brought guns to the riot as we see with Grosskreutz.
I'm not at all sure that those are the only two reasons. What the situation needs is for the police to come in and arrest all the people engaged in public criminality and for the DA to prosecute them. At that point BLM can march up and down and do their thing, and the militia guys can either go home or march up and down and do their thing, and the police can stand in the middle and make sure nothing crazy happens. |
11th September 2020, 04:15 AM | #87 |
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It's relevant because Rittenhouse didn't shoot the gunman, he shot the unarmed Rosenbaum. Unless there's some evidence showing that the two men were attacking Rittenhouse as accomplices, the actions of a third party can't justify a self-defense killing. Rittenhouse may have been in legitimate danger, but the relevant question is was he in danger of serious injury from Rosenbaum. Perhaps, perhaps not. The probable cause statement with the eye witness states that a armed individual was present in alliance with Rittenhouse. This may well be our pistol shooter seen on video. It's a big leap to assume the pistol shot was in hostility to Rittenhouse. I think it quite odd you assume quite a bit of intentions on all those involved, despite no evidence of this. You claim Rosenbaum was attempting to disarm Rittenhouse, yet I see no evidence of this. You claim Rittenhouse was targeted in retaliation for some dumpster fire skirmish, which is a massive assumption without evidence. You've filled in many details that paint Rittenhouse as a victim of aggression through no bad action on his part, which we simply cannot know at this time. The probable cause statement interviews the journalist (who is also the victim of a reckless endangerment charge from the shooting) who was very close to the action. I can't quite tell with exact precision the exact order of events. It almost sounds like Rittenhouse fired a shot into the ground before Rosenbaum tried to grab the muzzle. If Rittenhouse was pointing or firing a "warning shot" before Rosenbaum tried to grab the gun, then Rosenbaum may well have been legally justified in trying to disarm his soon to be killer. If the first killing was unlawful, Rittenhouse has basically no right to defend himself from people attempting to detain or disarm him, even violently. If the first shooting is criminal, the later shootings are those of a fleeing, dangerous criminal. The actions of Huber could be considered one of someone attempting a citizens arrest of a fleeing murderer, and the murderer has no right to defend himself from such an action. It's quite clear that this is what people on the street felt in the video, that Rittenhouse was a killer fleeing the scene of his previous shooting. If you have a source about the intentions of the man with the handgun wanting to "empty the magazine into Rittenhouse", I'd appreciate a link. From my own viewing, it appears to me the man with the handgun had ample opportunity to shoot Rittenhouse and chose not to, which is unfortunate given that Rittenhouse would continue to kill. |
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11th September 2020, 04:49 AM | #88 |
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Having read your response it seems that you've not seen the videos posted earlier or, if you have, you've completely ignored the one that shows Rittenhouse (with only a small chance that it wasn't him) actually extinguishing the dumpster fire and being set upon.
Which is it, please? |
11th September 2020, 05:07 AM | #89 |
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I question the need for this thread. It's entirely predictable that reasonable people would argue that Rittenhouse is guilty of at least lesser charges of murder, given that we can see them being performed on video. Right wingers will defend Rittenhouse using whatever lies and cherry picking they can muster because they rely on the narrative that "protecting property" (killing left-wingers) with a gun is a just and moral act. The result is yet another thread where right wingers lie and obfuscate and the rest of us are frustrated, eventually leading to shouting matches and mod action.
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11th September 2020, 05:13 AM | #90 |
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Two important Wisconsin laws: (939.48)
Quote:
Maybe more important:
Quote:
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11th September 2020, 05:16 AM | #91 |
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11th September 2020, 05:26 AM | #92 |
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Surely self defence is a question of whether the person claiming it holds a reasonable belief that they were about to be attacked/killed? Whether or not they actually are doesn't enter into it.
No that is not the question. The question is whether he held a reasonable belief that he was in danger of serious injury from Rosenbaum. From one of the newspaper articles about the case: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ms/5654579002/
Quote:
McGinnes caught the start of Rittenhouse running, which I had forgotten: https://www.lakemchenryscanner.com/2...e-rittenhouse/
Quote:
I'm not sure that that is true. What are you basing it on? That may mean that they are entitled to attempt a citizen's arrest. It may be that their reasonable understanding of the situation entitles them to self defence. I'm not sure that denies Rittenhouse the possibility of self defence. I'm not sure that that is true. I checked the statute and I don't see anything like you describe in it: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/939/iii/48 The quote is all over the place, but I don't have any sources I'm comfortable with either confirming or refuting them. For what it's worth here is an article from the Blaze. https://www.theblaze.com/news/armed-...ooting-regrets This looks to come from a now deleted Facebook post from a friend of Grosskreutz. https://archive.is/AaXvi I don't see that hearsay like this is going to change things one way or the other, so I'm content to assume that it is false for the moment. |
11th September 2020, 05:33 AM | #93 |
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11th September 2020, 05:35 AM | #94 |
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My reading of the journalist's account is that Rittenhouse had already fired the first shot before Rosenbaum grabbed the gun. Grabbing the gun wasn't the inciting incident.
Self-defense is explicitly denied by the statute for those engaging in unlawful provocation. I think a broader argument that illegally carrying a rifle while intentionally violating a riot curfew in order to confront other rioters could be construed as unlawful provocation. Every second that Kyle was on the streets armed was unlawful. |
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11th September 2020, 05:36 AM | #95 |
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11th September 2020, 05:49 AM | #96 |
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https://www.wispolitics.com/wp-conte...-Complaint.pdf
Quote:
I think it is going to difficult to argue that engaging in something legal (open carry) would count as provocation in this sense. Maybe, I don't know. In any case, the statute also says this: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/939/iii/48
Quote:
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11th September 2020, 06:00 AM | #97 |
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I suppose we'll get clarification from that eyewitness as the case proceeds. I think it's unclear exactly what the timing was. The way I read it, the first shot did not strike Rosenbaum, and only after that did he lunge for the rifle. Perhaps that is not correct, we only have the PC document.
Rittenhouse will claim his open carrying is lawful. Seems like a long shot to me, and he has been charged with unlawfully carrying the gun since he is a minor. It is quite plain he is violating the curfew, despite the cops not bothering to enforce it on the armed mob. I don't think there's much more point in going back and forth on this. Witnesses will be called, timelines will be hammered out. I suppose we just have to be patient. |
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11th September 2020, 06:04 AM | #98 |
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11th September 2020, 06:05 AM | #99 |
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11th September 2020, 11:44 AM | #100 |
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Wow. You seem to have information about what Rosenbaum knew. Evidence derived from a seance may be questionable.
And who said anything about mass shooting? A sniper can plink at a single individual. Please share your source for these factual assertions. Or you could drop the Socratic horse **** and get to the point? |
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11th September 2020, 01:08 PM | #101 |
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Of course be knew. He encountered and fighting with militia guys standing next to property with guns. If I'm near a celebrity and someone a big guy with a gun next to them, I'm going to assume they are their to protect them.
*Sign*, the point is you seem to be implying that someone with a rifle must be a potential shooter and attacking them is justified. |
11th September 2020, 01:16 PM | #102 |
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Kid in riot with AR-15 is not analogous to celebrity bodyguard. In my humble opinion.
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11th September 2020, 02:21 PM | #103 |
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*le sigh*
No, attacking them is not necessarily justified right out of the gate. But you can be 100% sure that someone without a badge running around with a gun during a riot after curfew is a criminal. No ifs, ands or buts. You seem to suggest that you could look at Ky-Ky and know he was just playing Avengers and thought he was in some kind of righteous militia. Bad news for you: martial law was not declared, nor was Ky-Ky an agent of law enforcement. He was nothing but another punk on the street, like the rest of them. Except that he brought a killing tool. So yeah, Rosenbaum and anyone else have no reason to assume he was a good guy. His very armed presence indicates he was not. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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11th September 2020, 02:22 PM | #104 |
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One clue might have been that Rittenhouse prevented Rosenbaum's group from carrying out whatever arson they were working on in the vicinity of the building the militia were protecting.
It hardly matters though if we are talking about Rittenhouse's justification for the shooting. |
11th September 2020, 02:41 PM | #105 |
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You can be sure they are criminals in a sense that is different from the sense in which the people pushing the lighted dumpster towards the gas station were criminals? The first sounds like a misdemeanor, the second sounds like a felony.
The other militia standing with him is probably a clue. The fact that he goes to put out the dumpster is a clue. Obviously. Defending stores, putting out fires... a punk, just like the group trying to burn down the gas station. Sure, just like Grosskreutz. When Rosenbaum and his group were prevented from pushing a flaming dumpster towards the gas station... they assumed the group that stopped them was up to no good? They thought the heavily armed group was looking for an opportunity to shoot somebody so they shouted in their faces and pushed? Wouldn't the militia acting calmly in the face of their provocation be a clue that they weren't up to no good? They then chase down the youngest member of the group when he got seperated? They really don't seem too concerned that the militia are going to use the guns. None of this relates to whether or not Rittenhouse was justified in shooting Rosenbaum or the others. |
11th September 2020, 03:08 PM | #106 |
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You were so close, but still missed it.
If Ky-Ky and others were putting out fires, that does not mean they don't plan to shoot you. That's the problem with criminals; you don't know how far their moral compass will swing back and forth. They might well put greasing an anarchist right along side of putting out a fire in terms of public service. Why, absurd as it sounds, they might kill one of them, then flee and wax another while blowing another guy's arm apart for good measure. Am I being too hyperbolic there? The question asked was how anyone would know if Kyle was bad news? My answer is that he declared himself law enforcement/militia in defiance of police orders, so he for god damned sure isn't on the side of law and order. You're just throwing dice with how far he is away from them. Oh, and he is charged with homicide et al. The 5-0 seems to agree with me. |
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11th September 2020, 03:16 PM | #107 |
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11th September 2020, 03:20 PM | #108 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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11th September 2020, 03:28 PM | #109 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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11th September 2020, 03:32 PM | #110 |
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11th September 2020, 03:34 PM | #111 |
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On the one hand you have a group of people with criminal convictions and a history of violence involved in arson. On the other you have a group whose only crime at that point seems to be breaking curfew. I don't see that people open carrying can give you a self defence justification for assaulting them as we see in the video. I also don't see how a would be arsonist breaking curfew is in a position to argue they were making a citizens arrest of Rittenhouse on the basis that he was open carrying while breaking curfew.
In any case, none of this matters since the state of mind of Rosenbaum isn't relevant to Rittenhouse's self defence justification. I don't see that legally open carrying can't be a justification for people to claim self defence when they attack you. How can any of them know that any of them aren't bad news? Can everybody assault everybody else like it's the purge? That is a matter of opinion. I have no idea what that means. It was certainly homicide. The question is whether it was self defence. He has to assert self defence. The police/DA aren't going to do that for him. |
11th September 2020, 04:32 PM | #112 |
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Guys...
The police set a curfew. Captain Kyle and the Avengers retorted "**** you cops, WE are the law" and sauntered over to some random burned out car dealership that the owner did not ask them to defend (probably add trespass on the list). They declared it Fort ******* Apache and prepared to defend it. Who were they going to shoot? Cuz that was the plan: shoot em up, or maybe wave guns around and intimidate rioters with threat of disproportionate response. The Avengers here were not in the right from word go. But don't get me wrong: I'm ok with being out in a riot. Just check your halo at the door. You have elected to be a bad guy, one way or the other. Anyone think everyone would still be alive if heroic Kyle had left that illegal carried weapon at home? Er, I mean loaded thousand dollar rifle that apparently fell off the back of a truck? |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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12th September 2020, 04:55 AM | #113 |
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12th September 2020, 05:29 AM | #114 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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12th September 2020, 07:34 AM | #115 |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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12th September 2020, 08:21 AM | #116 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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12th September 2020, 08:29 AM | #117 |
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Not at all. I sympathize with the protesters. What I don't sympathize with is the lame ass excuses for one that murders, under whatever flag he claims.
(G)You take a gun into the streets, you want to shoot someone. Period. No cowardly excuses. Your sole intent by carrying a gun is to put a bullet in someone's someone's center mass, or maybe the skull, as Kyle did to Rosenbaum. Your are not carrying it for some sporting target shooting competition. You intend to kill people. Own that ****. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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12th September 2020, 08:49 AM | #118 |
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12th September 2020, 08:51 AM | #119 |
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12th September 2020, 08:54 AM | #120 |
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