|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
14th September 2020, 07:57 AM | #161 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 839
|
Is is so hard to imagine that the boy had exactly this in mind? Go to another town with a ******* assault rifle, wait until he gets attacked in the riots then pull the trigger.
But no, the claims are now: "Well, why could it not have been self defense, even though nothing of this would have happened if he stayed at home." |
14th September 2020, 08:03 AM | #162 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,570
|
Everybody seems to be looking hard at the law. Guess what? When it goes back to the jury room, the law don't matter a hill of beans. The idea that they are going to find 12 people to convict Rittenhouse on the most serious charges is a pipe dream.
|
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
|
14th September 2020, 08:07 AM | #163 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
In a just world, he’s be charged as a juvenile and spend the next several years in rehabilitation.
|
14th September 2020, 08:08 AM | #164 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
You're denying that there is a proportionate response qualifier? There is not much more severe response than killing with five rounds of high powered rifle fire. Considering that as far as we know, Rosenbaum had not so much as threatened to give him a nooggie. People chase each other all the time, that's hardly a capital offense. And the reporter witnessed that Rosenbaum didn't grab at the gun till Kyle had already fired.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
14th September 2020, 08:11 AM | #165 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
14th September 2020, 08:17 AM | #166 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,096
|
No, I am denying that it demands the opponent be armed.
Sure, but if you are in fear of death or serious injury then using lethal force can be covered in the self defence statute we have been discussing. Indeed... we don't know that. Even so, explicitly telling the person claiming self defence that you intend to injure/kill them isn't required. If you chase somebody in a way that leads them to reasonably believe you are going to kill, or severely injure them, then they are entitled to defend themselves, potentially with lethal force. "Capital offense" has nothing to do with it, since it isn't a question of the culpability of the person who got shot. The violent class-3 sex offending arsonist could have been intending to hand him some religious pamphlets for all it matters. That is not what the witness said. You may be reading that into what the witness said, but none the less it isn't actually what the witness said. |
14th September 2020, 08:17 AM | #167 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
In a just world, he would (in no particular order):
-not have access as a minor to high powered modified military weapons - not think it was a good idea to arm up and waltz into a riot - value human life a bit more - consider foreseeable consequences and evaluate their practicality He may have done the latter three but screwed the proverbial pooch in doing so |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
14th September 2020, 08:25 AM | #168 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Your argument seems to rely entirely on Rittenhouse's feeling that he was in imminent grave danger that could only be mitigated with lethal force. I see no reason to assume that, and I see a lot of reasons to doubt his honesty (claiming to be contracted as an underage guard/militia/Avenger, mysteriously appearing weapons, defying police orders to join a riot in a neighboring state, etc). I suppose we'll see how it unfolds.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
14th September 2020, 08:26 AM | #169 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
Sure.
We don't even know what the evidence is. Or how careful the state will be with jury selection or where the pool will be drawn from. Thinking right now that no jury would convict this guy is beyond premature. I'm guessing most citizens of Kenosha would not be real pleased with out of state people bringing rifles in order to shoot people, and there is no guarantee that the defense will (1) slip a ringer or two in there and (2) that ringer will hold fast during a lengthy jury deliberation. Plus (3) the unsaid worry that if they acquit all hell will break loose. |
14th September 2020, 08:27 AM | #170 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,096
|
What undermines that a little is that the only people he shot were shot in a way that gives him a self defence argument. Is the idea that he put out the fire in the dumpster in order to then 20 minutes later have one of the arsonists spot him, chase him and try to get the gun with enough witnesses to back up the self defence claim? Is he Moriarty from Sherlock?
|
14th September 2020, 08:30 AM | #171 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
I have a feeling that, whenever this trial finally rolls around, we're going to hear from a lot of witnesses that encountered Kyle before the shootings. I wonder how they'll describe his attitude that night. The journalist's description of Kyle before the shooting wasn't very flattering.
It's going to be a long wait I fear. Murder trials aren't exactly known for their speediness. Both defense and prosecution tend to be very deliberate and take their time. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
14th September 2020, 08:34 AM | #172 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 839
|
LOL, poor Kyle, all he wanted was to grab an AR 15, go into a town where people are rioting and protect the poor Americans getting attacked by the nasty Antifa/BLM goons.
From your view, what was the reason for a 17 year old boy to grab an assault rifle and travel to a riot? (While not being called to, forced to or invited to) ETA: Regarding Moriarty: Pretty strange that you need to assume superhuman intelligence to pull this childish stunt. |
14th September 2020, 08:38 AM | #173 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Ya, pretty sure he wasn't setting it up per se. But he slung that rifle over his shoulder to go where he was expressly not allowed to go, or even carry it as a minor. All of which he surely knew. But he looked at his What Would Captain America Do bracelet and racked em up. Cap shot bad guys, right?
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
14th September 2020, 08:42 AM | #174 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Haven't seen the usual facebook meme dump that often comes along with these "self-defense" terrorists. Perhaps it's a bit early.
For example, James Alex Fields posted all kinds of memes on various social media both about his love of Hitler and memes about hitting protesters with cars. Then he "self-defensed" his car into a crowd of antifascist protesters in Charlottesville. Maybe we should have a betting pool. Whoever calls the date/time of the announcement that Kyle was peddling "Roof Koreans" or other such pro-murder memes gets an internet cookie. Wonder if he was ****-posting on discord, or had graduated to terrorgram like a proper reactionary. https://wtop.com/virginia/2018/11/ju...-murder-trial/ |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
14th September 2020, 08:45 AM | #175 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 839
|
I found this video a while ago. Poor Kyle sure has a very good reason to hit people, probably self defense.
|
14th September 2020, 08:48 AM | #176 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
|
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
14th September 2020, 09:18 AM | #177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,096
|
We don't know he wasn't allowed to carry it as a minor. I'm not sure the "good guy" and "bad guy" thing matters too much. If he had reasonable rear for his life, then self defence is on the cards. If Rosenbaum had been running at me, attempting to grab the gun and all the rest... under those circumstances, I would have been in fear for my life.
|
14th September 2020, 09:23 AM | #178 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
He pre-frontal cortex will be done developing in 6 or 7 years; I suspect that he'll make better decisions at that point. Until then, maybe he shouldn't be handling an assault rifle.
|
14th September 2020, 09:26 AM | #179 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 839
|
|
14th September 2020, 09:41 AM | #180 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
We do know. Wisconsin law, posted earlier, prohibits carrying of guns by those under 18. There is a hunting exception. Unless you are calling what he did hunting?
Quote:
Seriously, how do you guys make it in a bar on a Saturday night or even a raucous office party without killing people? Dick-swinging is not imminent death. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
14th September 2020, 09:47 AM | #181 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
I'll be interested to see if the prosecution contents that anyone out after curfew and willfully entered a riot having no other business there was behaving unlawfully by definition and their actions should all be interpreted as occuring while commiting crimes and/or provocation.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
14th September 2020, 10:27 AM | #182 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 624
|
|
14th September 2020, 12:46 PM | #183 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
|
|
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
|
14th September 2020, 01:31 PM | #184 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,096
|
|
14th September 2020, 01:34 PM | #185 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,096
|
It doesn't say you have to be hunting.
Typically I don't have to deal with people who I have just prevented burning down a petrol station, who have then vented their rage at me and my friends, then chased me followed by other rioters and arsonists while guns are fired behind me and they attempt to grab my gun. You must frequent rougher bars than I do. |
22nd September 2020, 09:14 PM | #186 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
|
|
25th September 2020, 07:42 PM | #187 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,772
|
UPDATE: The defendant is contesting extradition from Illinois to Wisconsin.
Which means, he stays right where he is for a while longer (a new hearing on this technical matter is scheduled now for Oct. 9). |
25th September 2020, 07:53 PM | #188 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,772
|
I am not a mind-reader, but from my simple understanding of the US Constitution Bill Of Rights, all the "security" individuals carrying weapons that night were all part of a well-organized citizen militia.. being necessary for the security of a free State (i.e. Nation)
There is one very plain fact in all of this. Rioting that night in Kenosha was stopped cold by a militia member bearing Arms. My goodness, I can only imagine the end result of this episode if he was holding a musket! As the saying goes -- Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. |
25th September 2020, 08:05 PM | #189 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,301
|
|
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
25th September 2020, 08:09 PM | #190 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,552
|
|
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
28th September 2020, 07:05 AM | #191 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
|
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
28th September 2020, 07:21 AM | #192 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
|
28th September 2020, 07:37 AM | #193 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 839
|
|
28th September 2020, 08:01 AM | #194 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
It might be some sort of ploy, but yeah. Looks like vamping. The accounts I've seen make it sound like there are some novel legal theories about to be unleashed. Which is usually a source of unintentional comedy.
The question is whether his Illinois counsel will screw this up in a way that hurts his case. |
30th September 2020, 11:53 AM | #195 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Lin Wood is threatening to sue the Biden campaign for defamation for calling Rittenhouse a white supremacist.
Originally Posted by Popehat
If I were being charged with murder and facing a lifetime of prison, I wouldn't be pleased if my lawyers were using the case to chase political clout. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
30th September 2020, 01:32 PM | #196 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
|
|
1st October 2020, 05:35 AM | #197 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
On a certain level the threat makes sense.
If the lawyer came out and simply stated "Rittenhouse is not a white supremacist and shame on Joe Biden" he'd be largely just ignored. By threatening this absurd lawsuit he gets that information out in more effective manner because people will focus on how stupid a suit would be and amplify his statement when they point that out. Very unethical, but an effective rhetorical gambit. |
1st October 2020, 11:06 AM | #198 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
At least to the department of homeland security he is a hero and exactly the kind of thing we need more of.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbre.../#345f41126eeb |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
1st October 2020, 11:15 AM | #199 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,552
|
|
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
1st October 2020, 02:54 PM | #200 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,570
|
|
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|