|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
9th December 2020, 01:42 AM | #281 |
Scholar
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 52
|
|
9th December 2020, 08:52 AM | #282 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
Refer to the Italian Criminal Code. It's all codified.
The parents were charged because they were deliberately touting an untrue story of police brutality to the US media in an attempt to pervert justice in her favour and undermine public confidence in the Italian legal system. In the USA the legal equivalent is Obstruction of Justice, a felony, which attracts up to five years imprisonment, depending on the State. I can't believe all this time you never knew what calunnia was but here you are campaigning against Knox' conviction for it. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
9th December 2020, 08:54 AM | #283 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
9th December 2020, 08:55 AM | #284 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
9th December 2020, 08:58 AM | #285 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
9th December 2020, 09:55 AM | #286 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 298
|
You mean all he had to do was deny it and the mighty Perugian law enforcement monolith backed off? Who knew? In reality, if these paragons of justice were to have had any interest in Lumumba's calumny whatsoever, they need only have subpoenaed DM's interview tapes. Which would have proven these particular lies of his. |
9th December 2020, 12:31 PM | #287 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Okey dokey. From Article 368 of the Italian Penal Code:
Quote:
In order to be charged with calunnia, you must identify the person you're defaming. Did Chris or Edda ever identify the person who hit Amanda? No, they did not. All they said was she "was hit in the back of the head by a police officer with an open hand at least twice." Who exactly was she defaming? Which officer? What would the charges say? "Some unidentified Perugia police officer Vs. Chris Knox and Edda Mellas"? I can't believe after all this time you never knew this. |
9th December 2020, 12:44 PM | #288 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Do people in the UK "out on licence" get their apartments paid for by the state? Parolees in the US most certainly do not.
When someone is out on licence /on parole, they are still under the supervision of the court system, not social services.
Quote:
Penny dropped yet? |
9th December 2020, 12:54 PM | #289 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
9th December 2020, 12:56 PM | #290 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
9th December 2020, 01:03 PM | #291 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 884
|
|
9th December 2020, 01:29 PM | #292 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Silly boy....don't you know that Knox and Sollecito weren't suspects? They were just "witnesses informed of the facts" at the time they were being "interviewed" on Nov. 5/6. Not that Mignini and the police all stated later that they damn good and well already suspected K and S well before then. Nah...they weren't suspects. How convenient for the police.
|
9th December 2020, 05:28 PM | #293 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 15,561
|
|
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
|
9th December 2020, 06:04 PM | #294 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 6,313
|
Neither Amanda Knox's parents nor Patrick Lumumba were ever accused of calunnia against the police, nor could they for any statements they made as quoted in news media.
The elements of the Italian crime of calunnia (CP Article 368), in brief: Willfully (that is, knowingly) falsely reporting a person has committed a crime to a police agent, prosecutor, magistrate, or judge (that is, "a judicial authority", autorità giudiziaria). As mentioned in a previous post by Methos, the crime of calunnia should not be confused with the Italian crime of diffamazione (CP Article 595) or diffamazione col mezzo della stampa (CP Article 596-bis) - defamation and defamation by means of the media (press). Knox's parents could not have been accused of calunnia; they were accused of defamation and/or defamation by means of the media. This absurd case was, IIUC, eventually dropped by the Italian courts, but I am not aware of the court reasoning used to drop the case. Lumumba, IIUC, was never charged for the DM article. Possibly, the publication in the UK was considered outside Italian jurisdiction. This may have also been the reasoning used for the case against Knox's parents, as well as the case brought against Sollecito and Gumbel for Honor Bound (which was only published outside Italy).
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
9th December 2020, 07:37 PM | #295 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
OK, OK, Numbers, defamation instead of calunnia. Substitute defamation for calunnia, but everything else still stands.
The fact that the lawsuit against AK's parent was allowed to just disappear with no further follow up is evidence that it was nothing more than an intimidation and face saving attempt. The fact that Lumumba was never charged, even after he later admitted it was a bunch of lies, is evidence that Vixen's claim that "... the police, prosecutors and judges are compelled by law to sue for |
9th December 2020, 10:50 PM | #296 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 6,313
|
|
9th December 2020, 11:14 PM | #297 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Exactly! Mignini used lawsuits as a weapon to intimidate not only Knox, but anyone who dared criticize or cross him. He's not the only one. It's a common practice used in Italy by politicians and other prosecutors against journalists especially and why there's an effort to decriminalize defamation. But politicians and those in authority don't want to do that as it takes away a very handy weapon they can wield against the press. Witness how Trump has tried to discredit the press in the US with his Fake News and Enemy of the People campaign. Just imagine if he had the same ability to sue for defamation as the Italians politicians do!
|
16th December 2020, 09:09 AM | #298 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
Yes, they might well do. Friend of mine is a probation officer and she was often looking for suitable accommodation for vulnerable newly released prisoners. The Department for Work and Pensions would probably help with housing costs. The Probation Service in England & Wales used to be a quasi-social services outfit but then it merged with the police department in recent years, which has caused a lot of problems, which I won't bore you with.
I see no anomaly in Guede being helped with accommodation after twelve years in jail and no family roots. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:12 AM | #299 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:14 AM | #300 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
It's a she said he said situation, isn't it? Her interviews were all recorded (writing a statement is a recording). Neither she nor her (very expensive) counsel reported it at the time. So obviously she was groomed into claiming that by her misguided supporters and family.
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:15 AM | #301 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:16 AM | #302 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:19 AM | #303 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
AFAIAA either the statue of limitations has run out or the case is still technically ongoing*. The pair are not going to be subject to extradition so what can the Italians do except wait until they set foot on Italian soil?
*There hasn't been any news the charges have been dropped. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:20 AM | #304 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:21 AM | #305 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
|
|
16th December 2020, 09:24 AM | #306 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
16th December 2020, 09:30 AM | #307 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
|
I think Amanda Knox is innocent. That doesn't make me her friend.
|
16th December 2020, 10:30 AM | #308 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 15,561
|
Originally Posted by Bill Williams
This was not Follain's book. He wrote a piece about Knox for (I believe) The Sunday Times. In it he reported on an interview he'd had with Knox's parents. **He** reported what Knox had told the parents. According to them, She'd told them that she'd been hit at interrogation. The parents, acc. to Follain, simply relayed what they'd been told. As was Follain. As was the publisher, The Sunday Times. For this, Knox's parents had been charged by Mignini. Neither Follain nor the Sunday Times were included in the action. Yet they had participated in the libel. The relevant fact here is that the allegation never got past the charge phase. Clearly, it was Mignini threatening the parents, that they'd never see their daughter again. Strangely, he saw no need to threaten either Follain or the British media! But back to the original claim you'd made. You'd said that prosecutors **by law** were required to charge those who had done such things. 'Opinions' are defamation, too. Indeed, what else is there? But one thing is constant. Trips down the Vixen rabbit hole. |
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
|
16th December 2020, 12:24 PM | #309 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Rather than just using all the time wasting speculative verbiage, why not take a couple minutes and do a quick google to actually find an answer to the question? Which is what I did.
Unlike some people, I can handle being wrong and admitting it:
Quote:
|
16th December 2020, 12:39 PM | #310 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 884
|
|
16th December 2020, 12:43 PM | #311 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
You do know that the Italian Supreme Court ruled that Knox and Sollecito became official suspects during their Nov. 5/6 interrogations, don't you?
You do know that is why their interrogations should have been stopped and they should have been provided lawyers right there and then, but that didn't happen, don't you? You do know that is why Mignini was censured by the Council of Magistrates for violation of correct procedure in the arrest of Knox and Sollecito, don't you? |
16th December 2020, 01:00 PM | #312 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Quote:
Lumumba certainly knew how it worked. He only got his bar back 3 months after being totally cleared of any involvement. There was no reason for that delay. Or was there? |
16th December 2020, 01:41 PM | #313 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
No, it's not. Those words are not hers. Those are the words of the police as they chose to interpret them. For example, saying that she replied to Patrick's message that "we would meet immediately" which we know she never did. Where are the suggestions from the interpreter that she had amnesia? Where are the suggestions to imagine what happened? No, Vixen, those statements are NOT a recording of what went on in the interrogation room
Quote:
Amanda did report it in her memorial on Nov. 6, the same day it happened:
Quote:
It's no coincidence that Lumumba's first account of his non-recorded interrogation included being hit and threats of being imprisoned for 30 years if he didn't confess by the police. Sounds like their standard interrogation M.O. But, of course, he wasn't a suspect when he was dragged out of his house at dawn by the police either, was he, Vixen? |
16th December 2020, 01:47 PM | #314 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
16th December 2020, 02:04 PM | #315 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Quote:
Quote:
You have a very odd idea of what constitutes a friendship. 2. What the hell has that to do with anything in my post?
Quote:
|
16th December 2020, 04:39 PM | #316 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 15,561
|
It's unclear why **anyone** argues otherwise. Why?
Because it's what Mignini told CNN's Drew Griffin in 2010. The text of that interview is on TJMK. Mignini said that the first interrogation had to be stopped at 1:45 am because - as he alleged - Knox had implicated herself. He told Griffin what the relevant statute was, guaranteeing Knox a lawyer from that point onwards. Except... he then told Knox that she could continue if she wanted, and he'd act "as if only a notary" and write stuff down. He then argued that Knox did **need** a lawyer, after telling Griffin she did. Apparently this became the 5:45 am "confession", which ha had differences from the 1:45 am "confession". And it had happened without a lawyer present, which Mignini told Drew Griffin had been by-passed on a technicality. So.... it's amazing that **anyone** would argue she'd not been a suspect at interrogation. |
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
|
16th December 2020, 05:37 PM | #317 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,639
|
Mignini was arrogant and complacent because this "spontaneous statement" mendacity was exactly the sleight-of-hand con trick he'd been able to use with complete alacrity and complete protection over many years as a public prosecutor. Heck, he was probably schooled in it by one of his predecessors. And to be (slightly) fair to CNN, neither they nor - apparently - any of their Italy-based journalists understood just how and why this contrajudicial trick was played, seemingly throughout Italy (or at least from Florence southwards....). And I suspect Mignini would have known this, and would therefore have known that his "explanation" would have been uncritically accepted. I remember writing in these threads some time shortly after the 2015 acquittals/annulments, when there were some around these shores wondering what anyone still had to talk about wrt this case, that aside from following Knox's application through the ECHR adjudication and its aftermath*, and also aside from following Sollecito's and Knox's wider claims for compensation from Italy**, the one other remaining area of interest for me was in discovering whether there might be any professional repercussions for Mignini, Comodi, Stefanoni, Giobbi and the whole team of Italian state police who investigated this crime. And I remember writing then - and several more times since - that, Italy being the judicially- and politically-broken nation that it is, it was extremely unlikely that any of them would ever face anything even approaching proper accountability or sanction for their roles in this sorry, often downright-disgraceful saga. I still hold that belief. * and there's still that aftermath to consider, especially given Italy's *less than stellar* track record in applying the required ECHR remedies in a timely and fair manner. ** and I strongly suspect that there will be future developments on both those fronts before long. |
18th December 2020, 04:15 AM | #318 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
BiWi you really need to familiarise yourself with what Obstruction of Justice consists of. There is a big difference between a defendant and her family and friends falsely claiming ot all and sundry of police brutality to garner public support and defeat the ends of justice, and some hack journalist quoting them in a newspaper.
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
18th December 2020, 04:18 AM | #319 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
AIUI It was settled out of court which is why you have heard no more about it as it usually includes a confidentiality clause.
AIUI with the consent of the court, which is often the case in libel/defamation cases, Gumbel in exchange for an undisclosed sum and apology, was acquitted. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
18th December 2020, 04:22 AM | #320 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
Once again, you have changed the subject by means of sophistry. We were talking about Trump being characteristic of a typical supporter of Amanda Knox, a white American found guilty of killing someone of a different nationality.
Do we see a pattern here? BTW has Knox ever sent you a note of thanks for being one of her staunchest defenders? No, I thought not, so you are in the same boat as her other supporters, including Trump. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|