ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th November 2018, 04:59 AM   #1
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,479
Bronze age Dead Sea meteor strike

Interesting article:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...ea-communities


Quote:
The most comprehensive evidence of destruction caused by a low-altitude meteor explosion comes from the Bronze Age city of Tall el-Hammam, where a team that includes Silvia has been excavating for the last 13 years. Radiocarbon dating indicates that the mud-brick walls of nearly all structures suddenly disappeared around 3,700 years ago, leaving only stone foundations.

What’s more, the outer layers of many pieces of pottery from same time period show signs of having melted into glass. Zircon crystals in those glassy coats formed within one second at extremely high temperatures, perhaps as hot as the surface of the sun, Silvia said.

High-force winds created tiny, spherical mineral grains that apparently rained down on Tall el-Hammam, he said. The research team has identified these minuscule bits of rock on pottery fragments at the site.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 11:59 PM   #2
Venom
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1,762
Could this have lead to the Seven Plagues of Egypt?

Maybe this was the reason the Red(reed) Sea recessed then flooded over again?

Perhaps the column of smoke that was followed by the Ancient Israelites by day was the plume of ash shot into the atmosphere by this impact event.

Or maybe this was the basis for the Great Flood of Noah.
Venom is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 12:27 AM   #3
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,479
I think the effects would be too localised - like a hydrogen bomb without any radioactive fallout.

Given the location, and sudden destruction of several cities in a fireball, I could easily believe that it was the basis for the story of Soddom and Gomorrah.

Similarly the post-glacial sea level rise is a far better fit for the great flood. In the Persian Gulf it's claimed that after an initial tsunami, the sea advanced about a kilometre a year for a thousand years. That's going to get into an oral culture's stories. We also have oral histories dating back to that time in Australia, where East Coast tribes tell Dreamtime stories that describe the flooding of the coast where the Great Barrier Reef subsequently formed.

Yes, there are oral histories older than the Great Barrier Reef.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 10:18 AM   #4
WhatRoughBeast
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,315
It's interesting, but I'm deeply skeptical about some of it. I suspect that the archaeologist who talked to the reporter isn't much of a physicist. The extreme temperature (as hot as the surface of the sun) in particular seems ... peculiar. An impact does provide a great deal of heat, but not as radiant heat. Plus, of course, my intuition tells me that anything close enough to get that hot will be part of the crater.

Speaking of which, where is the crater? A 25-mile "circular plain" doesn't count. At the least, that part of the world doesn't have a lot of weather which will tend to erase the crater walls - plus, such artifacts don't disappear in mere millenia.
WhatRoughBeast is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 10:31 AM   #5
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 76,590
Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
It's interesting, but I'm deeply skeptical about some of it. I suspect that the archaeologist who talked to the reporter isn't much of a physicist. The extreme temperature (as hot as the surface of the sun) in particular seems ... peculiar. An impact does provide a great deal of heat, but not as radiant heat. Plus, of course, my intuition tells me that anything close enough to get that hot will be part of the crater.

Speaking of which, where is the crater? A 25-mile "circular plain" doesn't count. At the least, that part of the world doesn't have a lot of weather which will tend to erase the crater walls - plus, such artifacts don't disappear in mere millenia.
Airburst, maybe?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2018, 09:11 AM   #6
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,479
Indeed, like the 1908 Tunguska event.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

10-15 MT airburst, flattened trees and no crater.


Also, the zircon crystal structure would be very sensitive to cooling rate. Rapid cooling, like a hot blast of air hitting a pot that's hundreds of degrees colder would produce different structures than those created by a slow cooling from a kiln.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2018, 05:23 PM   #7
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,990
Wouldn't there be proof in a sedimentary layer? A hillside eroded onto a flat, leaving a trace of something at the 3,700 year layer?
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2018, 05:37 PM   #8
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,353
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Could this have lead to the Seven Plagues of Egypt?

Sodom and Gomorrah.


(And, much more likely, nothing at all, but if there is any sort of Biblical connection, that would be it.)

ETA:
Originally Posted by wiipedia article on Sodom and Gomorrah
Another candidate for Sodom is the Tall el Hammam dig site which began in 2006 under the direction of Steven Collins. Tall el Hammam is located in the southern Jordan river valley approximately 14 kilometres (9 mi) northeast of the Dead Sea, and according to Collins fits the biblical descriptions of the lands of Sodom.[21][22] The ongoing dig is a result of joint cooperation between Trinity Southwest University and the Department of Antiquities of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.[23][better source needed]

Last edited by Meadmaker; 30th November 2018 at 05:42 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 01:43 AM   #9
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,479
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Wouldn't there be proof in a sedimentary layer? A hillside eroded onto a flat, leaving a trace of something at the 3,700 year layer?
Despite eyewitness accounts and photographic evidence of the location, there is still debate as to whether the 1908 Tunguska event even left a crater. Something like that would have been adequately destructive.

The Tunguska event has left mineral traces - elevated amounts of iridium, for example.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 08:29 AM   #10
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,353
I did a little bit more reading on this. The scientists who announced the findings are part of Trinity Southwest University's "College of Archaeology & Biblical History".

Needless to say, I would take the findings of any such university with a pillar of salt. I don't know enough to say that the people doing the dig aren't reputable archeologists or other scientists, but I would want to see the findings confirmed by more, shall we say, mainstream scientists.

So, it is an interesting find. If it could be confirmed, it fits very well with the idea that the site is indeed the origin of the Sodom and Gomorrah myth.



I did a Google News search on "Sodom and Gomorrah" and, needless to say, fundies are already crowing about the findings. My favorite headline was "Scientists Admit that the Biblical Story of Sodom and Gomorrah is Accurate". To my way of thinking, that overstates the case just a tad. One thing is certain. Whether the findings are totally refuted or confirmed by reputable scientists, fundies will forever more cite those findings as proof that the Bible is true.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 02:33 PM   #11
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,479
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I did a little bit more reading on this. The scientists who announced the findings are part of Trinity Southwest University's "College of Archaeology & Biblical History".

Needless to say, I would take the findings of any such university with a pillar of salt. I don't know enough to say that the people doing the dig aren't reputable archeologists or other scientists, but I would want to see the findings confirmed by more, shall we say, mainstream scientists.

So, it is an interesting find. If it could be confirmed, it fits very well with the idea that the site is indeed the origin of the Sodom and Gomorrah myth.



I did a Google News search on "Sodom and Gomorrah" and, needless to say, fundies are already crowing about the findings. My favorite headline was "Scientists Admit that the Biblical Story of Sodom and Gomorrah is Accurate". To my way of thinking, that overstates the case just a tad. One thing is certain. Whether the findings are totally refuted or confirmed by reputable scientists, fundies will forever more cite those findings as proof that the Bible is true.
Thanks for that. I would have expected the myth to have been based on some actual event, just as I believe the flood myth to have been based on oral histories that originated in one or more actual events.

It's ironic to see fundies accepting science when it suits them. Presumably they accept the dating techniques, which could be interesting as thermoluminescence dating is probably what was used and that goes back to 500,000 years or so, and certainly for dating campfires in Australia.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:11 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.