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Old 19th November 2018, 08:42 PM   #121
Myles
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I had flu and pneumonia jabs the other day on different arms. I think it is pneumonia one that is causing me the most trouble. My arm is very sore and even causing numbness in my fingers. Is this a normal reaction?
I would like to take this thread back to the OP and see what thread participants think about it now. My interest in it is predicated upon my recent experiences with “jabs”.

Never had the flu until 1972. Lived in Puerto Rico when the Asian flu blew in. It was the sickest I had ever been in my life but was only 24, thought I was tough and I was back to business in 3 days without so much as an aspirin.

Worked in the medical field for over 30 years after that and don’t recall when they began requiring us to have flu shots but I had no hesitation in complying with it based on that one previous experience and although I don’t recall specifics, I am sure I have had a mild dose of the flu once or twice since then but nothing as harsh.

Once I took a flu shot with my upper arm and forearm at a 90 degree angle. Ended up with what us kids used to call a charleyhorse, a muscle pain that would lessen in a day or so. From that day on I would stand for the jab with my arm hanging straight down and it never happened again.

In 2013, my wife, to whom I had been married since 1985, had a bi-lateral pulmonary transplant. From this point on I had to follow directions from her physicians re: flu shots and now pneumonia shots for myself. I could not even get a shingles vaccine since it involved a live virus unless I could isolate myself from her for a period of time which I would not do. I still took my “jabs” standing with no charleyhorses.

She passed in 2015.

I am now married to my beautiful lady who has never had a flu shot at all and who chides me when that time of year rolls around. She is ahead of me on points re: the subject. Last year I had a flu shot and a pneumonia shot within 4 days of each other and I got sick as hell. “See - I TOLD you!” Incidental I said - after all I was 69 and I wasn’t the tough little soldier I used to be.

Now we get to last week. We live in the Hurricane Mike area and my annual physical was overdue. I reached my threescore and ten a couple of months ago and my PCP said I needed this pneumococcal 23 shot. Since I had my annual flu shot 2 months ago I said OK and stood as usual. A few hours later back at the ranch I was busy giving info to some FEMA officials when I felt the old charleyhorse in my jab arm. I really gave it no attention until dark so I took some aspirin for the pain. Now I have broken a toe once and a finger once and those were no big deal. I have never broken a major bone but I imagined the pain in my arm now to be the same. 70 years old and I have NEVER had such pain. Ate 12 aspirins in 24 hours on top of the Jack D with no relief. My arm was swollen and inflamed. My wife begged me to go to the ER but I said this is just a form of charleyhorse, maybe this time it’s a Sir Charles the Stallion, but it’ll go away, trust me.

While the FEMA people were at my house, my PCP called me to come pick up some lab referrals (her office is just down the road) so the next day I went to pick them up and I said hey look at my arm. The staff was aghast! Go to the ER now. Because of Mike she had lost a lot of medication inventory. The worst part was admitting my wife was right so that was a long trip to the ER in St.Joe.

We get to the ER and I’ll call this guy RN#1. He said I know what you’re going through because it just happened to me. 4 days previously he had gotten a pneumococcal 23 shot and the same thing happened to him. He said just that day was the first day he could raise his arm over his head. He said he had been thinking about calling poison control and now that I was there with the same condition, he was. Doc comes in. Says that even with alcohol wipes, you can never be sure that no bacteria comes in with the jab yada-yada-yada. So he draws a line with a Sharpie around the swollen area and gives me antibiotics for cellulitis. RN #1 comes back and says poison control had no previous reports on this but took his info. Since I am allergic to PCN and Sulfa, I had to be observed for an hour before they would turn me loose, so here comes RN#2 to release me. I know how you feel he says, exact same thing happened to me after my last flu shot.

WTF???

He says if it wasn’t mandatory he would never get one again and my unshotted wife is just eating this up.

The swelling has gone down, the pain is bearable. I suppose the antibiotics are working although there remains some redness and tenderness. I tried to wash the Sharpie stripe off but it did hurt today.

Beginning to have my doubts about next year. Whatch’all think?
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Old 19th November 2018, 08:58 PM   #122
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I'm sorry, that's a lot of information and not the information one needs to make sense of it.

Sending you to the ED? Overreacting? Not knowing the difference between normal swelling and redness and cellulitis? I have seen a reaction to a Tdap mistaken for cellulitis before. Doctors are poorly informed about vaccine reactions. And the fact it got bigger, it's meaningless. Did you have a high fever? That is the key to a cellulitis vs vaccine reaction diagnosis. And I mean high, like 103 give or take.

And if that reaction was to your flu shot and not your pneumonia vaccine, consider an allergy to thimerosal in multidose vials. Chances are it was a normal reaction to a pneumonia shot and tylenol or ibuprofen would have been the proper treatment.

People who are telling you to never get a flu shot again are not well informed. I'd get a second opinion. Flu shots are going to be more important the older you get.

And a doctor saying this: "He says if it wasn’t mandatory he would never get one again" is ignorant. Unfortunately not all physicians are equally knowledgeable about all aspects of medicine.

Brachial nerve irritation after flu shots is a rare side effect, pain lasts about 6-8 weeks and resolves without sequelae.

Your new wife is wrong, placebo controlled studies on adults show flu shots don't make people sick. And certainly not the symptoms you describe.

There is a killed shingles vaccine now, you might want to revisit that.


Welcome to the forum, BTW.
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Old 19th November 2018, 09:36 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm sorry, that's a lot of information and not the information one needs to make sense of it.

Sending you to the ED? Overreacting? Not knowing the difference between normal swelling and redness and cellulitis? I have seen a reaction to a Tdap mistaken for cellulitis before. Doctors are poorly informed about vaccine reactions. And the fact it got bigger, it's meaningless. Did you have a high fever? That is the key to a cellulitis vs vaccine reaction diagnosis. And I mean high, like 103 give or take.

And if that reaction was to your flu shot and not your pneumonia vaccine, consider an allergy to thimerosal in multidose vials. Chances are it was a normal reaction to a pneumonia shot and tylenol or ibuprofen would have been the proper treatment.

People who are telling you to never get a flu shot again are not well informed. I'd get a second opinion. Flu shots are going to be more important the older you get.

And a doctor saying this: "He says if it wasn’t mandatory he would never get one again" is ignorant. Unfortunately not all physicians are equally knowledgeable about all aspects of medicine.

Brachial nerve irritation after flu shots is a rare side effect, pain lasts about 6-8 weeks and resolves without sequelae.

Your new wife is wrong, placebo controlled studies on adults show flu shots don't make people sick. And certainly not the symptoms you describe.

There is a killed shingles vaccine now, you might want to revisit that.


Welcome to the forum, BTW.
Actually, I’m still on your side.

BTW, it was another RN who didn’t want the flu shot, not the Doctor. He may be of the anti-vax persuasion crowd. I know nothing about him. Although RN#1 had a similar reaction to mine, he never indicated he was averse to the procedure. I don’t think the physician had any knowledge of our conversations.

Personal problem is my wife witnessing persons in that authority voicing that opinion. Really it was only RN#2 but that combined with my situation last year and what’s happening now only underscores her view. She’s only 55 but I hope she comes around before she comes down with something.

But this condition I had cannot be considered a “normal” reaction to a shot. If it is, then I could understand why some would avoid it again. This was absolutely painful. During the night, I felt like my forearm and fingers on my left hand were broken. I monitor my blood pressure daily and it has not dropped to my normal levels yet.

I was hoping you would respond to my post because I always respected the NP’s and PA’s more than the MD’s I worked with because you guys never stop studying.
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Old 19th November 2018, 09:44 PM   #124
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Also btw, 2 weeks after my wife with the transplant died, I got the shingles shot. My mother had shingles. I don’t know if it is generic but why take the chance, right?
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Old 19th November 2018, 10:57 PM   #125
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Some people have severe reactions to the pertussis vaccine (in Tdap) and the pneumonia vaccine. They are bacterial vaccines and some of the vaccines have more of the organisms' cell which evokes a greater reaction.

The treatment is anti-inflammatories, not antibiotics unless there is evidence of infection. Anyone who's ever had cellulitis can tell you, you feel sick, not just pain in one place. And except for the elderly who sometimes get sepsis without fever and kids who get fevers with everything, generally one looks for fever to distinguish between vaccine inflammation and cellulitis.

There are plenty of good physicians, don't count them all out.

It annoys me to no end to hear any medical professional giving word-of-mouth bad information when they are on the job. It's bad enough when they are off the job, it's unprofessional when they are on the job. If I was there I'd have told her in no uncertain (but polite) terms it's unprofessional to promote non-evidence based medicine on the job.


I'm sorry you lost your wife. I'm happy for you that you're happily married again.
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Old 20th November 2018, 09:50 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Or, lessee, 100,000,000 doses prevents 12,000 deaths. That means one death is prevented per 8,000 doses? Lionking's vax has a 7,999/8,000 chance of being useless. Worth the swollen arm?
A non-fatal case of influenza typically means 3-4 days of severe cough, high fever, and generally being too sick to get out of bed to do anything other than use the bathroom, followed by a couple of weeks of coughing. Even if it doesn't kill you, it's worth a shot and maybe a sore arm to avoid it.
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:36 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
If you must drive a few miles to get vaccinated and are healthy, the risk of dying in a car accident on that trip may be higher than the risk of dying from flu in that year.
Nonsense. Do the math! You are off by orders of magnitude. Where's the critical thinking?
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:51 AM   #128
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Sometimes the sore arm can be caused by the person giving you the injection, never having injected themselves, they don't know how to do it without causing pain.

I'm type 1 diabetic and inject myself, and whenever I took my children to get their jabs it always annoyed me how they thought it was a good idea to give the injection quickly, it's not. Injecting too quickly can hurt your muscles in my experience, but they think they are doing you a favour by getting it over with quickly, they're not.

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Old 24th November 2018, 05:11 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
A non-fatal case of influenza typically means 3-4 days of severe cough, high fever, and generally being too sick to get out of bed to do anything other than use the bathroom, followed by a couple of weeks of coughing. Even if it doesn't kill you, it's worth a shot and maybe a sore arm to avoid it.
I've been a bit unlucky and had influenza a few times, and it's typically a minimum of five days off work for me.

Since I live alone, it is pretty hard to manage.

I was particularly miffed at getting it recently, despite the annual flu-shot, but I think something went wrong with the vaccine that year.

Coincidentally, it was the only time that the vaccination didn't cause mild swelling and pain for me.

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Old 24th November 2018, 05:14 PM   #130
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More info:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2...swered/8992884

Key quote:
Quote:
Why has it been a bad flu season?

A key factor seems to be that the flu vaccine has been less effective than expected this year.

Preliminary data suggests it offered only 15 to 20 per cent protection, Professor Collignon says.

This means as many as 85 per cent of people who were vaccinated and then exposed to the virus still got infected.

"For whatever reason, the vaccine has been very ineffective this year."
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:50 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Sometimes the sore arm can be caused by the person giving you the injection, never having injected themselves, they don't know how to do it without causing pain.

I'm type 1 diabetic and inject myself, and whenever I took my children to get their jabs it always annoyed me how they thought it was a good idea to give the injection quickly, it's not. Injecting too quickly can hurt your muscles in my experience, but they think they are doing you a favour by getting it over with quickly, they're not.
Having given thousands of pediatric vaccine injections I can tell you it is situational.

When I have a kid who is freaking out, thrashing while being held, screaming, it is indeed not the time to give a slow injection. When it comes to older children and adults it's a different story.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:52 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Take those news stories with a grain of salt. They aren't reliably factual with the details.
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:17 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Take those news stories with a grain of salt. They aren't reliably factual with the details.
You'd best let these people know.

https://www.smh.com.au/healthcare/wh...26-gyou1x.html

And the Health Minister:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-...accine/9098598
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:31 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I didn't say the vaccine didn't have an unacceptable failure rate. What I said was news reporters don't get the details right.

"aren't reliably factual with the details."
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:21 AM   #135
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I had flu and pneuomonia shots last week, and I'm happy to say that, aside from a little pain during the injections (not really bad at all), I had no adverse reaction. Actually, I only remember one bad experience with vaccines. When I was in elementary school, 1st or 2nd grade, I think, I was given a diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis shot that made my arm very sore for the rest of the day. I don't remember now whether there was any redness or swelling.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:43 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by ArmillarySphere View Post
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I won't get autism, will I?
Only if you had it before.
Patient: Will I be able to play the piano after my operation?
Doctor: Of course.
Patient: Oh, goody! I always wanted to play the piano!
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Old 4th December 2018, 01:34 PM   #137
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What concerns me about vaccines is the slow but steady march to make them mandatory for everyone. And the fact that the public is gradually being conditioned to accept this assault on our freedom. Once you allow authorities to inject whatever they want into you without your consent, you are nothing but their slave. You have lost dominion over your own body.

Vaccines are the perfect Trojan Horse. So even if they're 100% safe and effective, once they're truly mandatory, you now have the legal infrastructure in place. That opens the door for authorities to put whatever they want in the vaccines.

“Perhaps by means of injections and drugs and chemicals the population could be induced to bear whatever its scientific masters may decide to be for its good.”
- Lord Bertrand Russell, The Scientific Outlook, 1931

"Looking a little deeper there is the possibility of substantially altering the intellectual and moral natures of individuals by some sort of hormonal injections; already great effects have*been produced on animals."
- Charles Galton Darwin,*The Next Million Years, 1952
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:56 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What concerns me about vaccines is the slow but steady march to make them mandatory for everyone. And the fact that the public is gradually being conditioned to accept this assault on our freedom. Once you allow authorities to inject whatever they want into you without your consent, you are nothing but their slave. You have lost dominion over your own body.

Vaccines are the perfect Trojan Horse. So even if they're 100% safe and effective, once they're truly mandatory, you now have the legal infrastructure in place. That opens the door for authorities to put whatever they want in the vaccines.

“Perhaps by means of injections and drugs and chemicals the population could be induced to bear whatever its scientific masters may decide to be for its good.”
- Lord Bertrand Russell, The Scientific Outlook, 1931

"Looking a little deeper there is the possibility of substantially altering the intellectual and moral natures of individuals by some sort of hormonal injections; already great effects have*been produced on animals."
- Charles Galton Darwin,*The Next Million Years, 1952
Another way to look at it is as a immunological 'quarantine'. There has been a long history of enforcing quarantine to protect the general population from infectious disease. It may be that no-one will hold you down and give you an injection, but you may be banned* from school, public transport etc. So long as you do not interact with the public you do not need a vaccine, but if you want to be potential danger to others then action has to be taken to protect the public from you.

*But not of course from this thread where you are of no danger to others.

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Old 5th December 2018, 03:12 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What concerns me about vaccines is the slow but steady march to make them mandatory for everyone. And the fact that the public is gradually being conditioned to accept this assault on our freedom. Once you allow authorities to inject whatever they want into you without your consent, you are nothing but their slave. You have lost dominion over your own body.

Vaccines are the perfect Trojan Horse. So even if they're 100% safe and effective, once they're truly mandatory, you now have the legal infrastructure in place. That opens the door for authorities to put whatever they want in the vaccines.

“Perhaps by means of injections and drugs and chemicals the population could be induced to bear whatever its scientific masters may decide to be for its good.”
- Lord Bertrand Russell, The Scientific Outlook, 1931

"Looking a little deeper there is the possibility of substantially altering the intellectual and moral natures of individuals by some sort of hormonal injections; already great effects have*been produced on animals."
- Charles Galton Darwin,*The Next Million Years, 1952
Wow. Multiple conspiracy theories in just 12 posts. Well done.

I will read future posts of yours for the humor content. Nothing more.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:27 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What concerns me about vaccines is the slow but steady march to make them mandatory for everyone. And the fact that the public is gradually being conditioned to accept this assault on our freedom. Once you allow authorities to inject whatever they want into you without your consent, you are nothing but their slave. You have lost dominion over your own body.

Vaccines are the perfect Trojan Horse. So even if they're 100% safe and effective, once they're truly mandatory, you now have the legal infrastructure in place. That opens the door for authorities to put whatever they want in the vaccines.

“Perhaps by means of injections and drugs and chemicals the population could be induced to bear whatever its scientific masters may decide to be for its good.”
- Lord Bertrand Russell, The Scientific Outlook, 1931

"Looking a little deeper there is the possibility of substantially altering the intellectual and moral natures of individuals by some sort of hormonal injections; already great effects have*been produced on animals."
- Charles Galton Darwin,*The Next Million Years, 1952

I'd like to know more about these wonder drugs that can permanently change a person's personality with a single dose.

Why aren't they available for treating depression and other mental illnesses? Why don't veterinarians offer them to correct overly aggressive dogs, when the only other alternative is often for the dogs to be euthanized? Why don't judges offer violent criminals the option to receive a pacifying injection instead of a long prison sentence?
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Old 9th December 2018, 05:53 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I'd like to know more about these wonder drugs that can permanently change a person's personality with a single dose.

Why aren't they available for treating depression and other mental illnesses? Why don't veterinarians offer them to correct overly aggressive dogs, when the only other alternative is often for the dogs to be euthanized? Why don't judges offer violent criminals the option to receive a pacifying injection instead of a long prison sentence?
Nobody said anything about a single dose. You made that up.
Aside from any other considerations, drugs that work on a single dose are not particularly profitable.

Look around. What percentage of people are on anti-depressants now?
What percentage of children are on Ritalin or similar drugs?

ETA: Vox magazine recently published an article advocating that lithium be put in the water supply, like fluoride.
The same idea was floated a while back by some US politician or bureaucrat.
That such an idea would even be suggested should give you the willies.
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Old 9th December 2018, 05:59 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Another way to look at it is as a immunological 'quarantine'. There has been a long history of enforcing quarantine to protect the general population from infectious disease. It may be that no-one will hold you down and give you an injection, but you may be banned* from school, public transport etc. So long as you do not interact with the public you do not need a vaccine, but if you want to be potential danger to others then action has to be taken to protect the public from you.

*But not of course from this thread where you are of no danger to others.
I could accept forced quarantine long before I could accept forced injections.
Mandatory injections don't necessarily have to be forced. If you condition people from a very young age to think the way you want them to, they'll happily accept whatever you tell them to do.
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Old 9th December 2018, 06:53 PM   #143
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An anti vaxxer too. Why am I not surprised?
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Old 9th December 2018, 06:54 PM   #144
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[Looks around cluttered living room and pile of work in the middle on the floor. Thinks about heavy work-load in next week]

Nah, I don't have time right now for more than to say you do not have a scientific evidence supported POV. Why don't you start there?

And some of the things in this CT post of your are utter nonsense. Who is this government secretly trying to control the world and why can't they get rid of Trump?
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What concerns me about vaccines is the slow but steady march to make them mandatory for everyone. And the fact that the public is gradually being conditioned to accept this assault on our freedom. Once you allow authorities to inject whatever they want into you without your consent, you are nothing but their slave. You have lost dominion over your own body.

Vaccines are the perfect Trojan Horse. So even if they're 100% safe and effective, once they're truly mandatory, you now have the legal infrastructure in place. That opens the door for authorities to put whatever they want in the vaccines.

“Perhaps by means of injections and drugs and chemicals the population could be induced to bear whatever its scientific masters may decide to be for its good.”
- Lord Bertrand Russell, The Scientific Outlook, 1931

"Looking a little deeper there is the possibility of substantially altering the intellectual and moral natures of individuals by some sort of hormonal injections; already great effects have*been produced on animals."
- Charles Galton Darwin,*The Next Million Years, 1952
Oh, and you might want to stop watching and/or reading science fiction.
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Old 9th December 2018, 08:05 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
ETA: Vox magazine recently published an article advocating that lithium be put in the water supply, like fluoride.
The same idea was floated a while back by some US politician or bureaucrat.
That such an idea would even be suggested should give you the willies.
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:28 AM   #146
Myriad
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Nobody said anything about a single dose. You made that up.

You said vaccinations could be "trojan horses" for drugs that would cause "intellectual or moral" changes.

The most widely administered vaccines are single dose, so any drugs they're a trojan horse for must also be effective with a single dose.

Psychoactive drugs have half-lives of hours or days. There is no vaccine that is given repeatedly on a daily or several times weekly basis.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:23 AM   #147
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
You said vaccinations could be "trojan horses" for drugs that would cause "intellectual or moral" changes.

The most widely administered vaccines are single dose, so any drugs they're a trojan horse for must also be effective with a single dose.

Psychoactive drugs have half-lives of hours or days. There is no vaccine that is given repeatedly on a daily or several times weekly basis.
Good points, but you're forgetting who you're talking to here.
No-one who opposes vaccines knows the first thing about them, hence Itchy Boy's mistake here.
You can't assume any prior knowledge here. Baby steps.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:06 PM   #148
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What concerns me about vaccines is the slow but steady march to make them mandatory for everyone....
Irrelevant conspiracy theory, Itchy Boy.

FYI, this is the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology section.

There is a slow and steady march to make vaccination as widespread as possible because there are good medical reasons. Ask someone who suffered from smallpox. Ask someone who has polio. Even "minor" diseases like measles and influenza can be nasty. Read about herd immunity.

Last edited by Reality Check; 13th December 2018 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:21 PM   #149
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Measles outbreak in NY has reached 91 cases.

Quote:
Rockland's measles tally is at 91, but 5 more cases in Orange County are counted in these numbers, because they emanated from Rockland, state Health Department officials confirmed. Health officials say the measles cases have shown up in people from infancy to age 62. ...

In this particular outbreak, the early cases are in people who are part of the Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish community around New Square, Monsey and Spring Valley. The Orange County cases, first announced on [21 Nov 2019], were linked to a Rockland visitor to Kiryas Joel. But the measles cases reach beyond those geographical boundaries.

The concept of a large outbreak here wasn't shocking to New York health officials. They had been preparing for cases as measles spread worldwide. The World Health Organization recently announced that cases of measles rose 30 percent last year [2017]. Regions in European countries like Ukraine, Belgium and England and areas in Israel had been hit especially hard, with lower inoculation rates fed by vaccination suspicions. There was also a lack of knowledge about the risks from measles, because it had been largely eliminated.
It was almost eliminated until the ignorant anti-vaxxer movement.
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Old Yesterday, 10:25 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Myles View Post
Actually, I’m still on your side.

BTW, it was another RN who didn’t want the flu shot, not the Doctor. He may be of the anti-vax persuasion crowd. I know nothing about him. Although RN#1 had a similar reaction to mine, he never indicated he was averse to the procedure. I don’t think the physician had any knowledge of our conversations.

Personal problem is my wife witnessing persons in that authority voicing that opinion. Really it was only RN#2 but that combined with my situation last year and what’s happening now only underscores her view. She’s only 55 but I hope she comes around before she comes down with something.

But this condition I had cannot be considered a “normal” reaction to a shot. If it is, then I could understand why some would avoid it again. This was absolutely painful. During the night, I felt like my forearm and fingers on my left hand were broken. I monitor my blood pressure daily and it has not dropped to my normal levels yet.

I was hoping you would respond to my post because I always respected the NP’s and PA’s more than the MD’s I worked with because you guys never stop studying.

See Lou Ferrigno in the news today. Same shot got the Hulk too.
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