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Old 22nd April 2017, 06:26 AM   #1
lionking
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Flu and pneumonia jabs.

I had flu and pneumonia jabs the other day on different arms. I think it is pneumonia one that is causing me the most trouble. My arm is very sore and even causing numbness in my fingers. Is this a normal reaction?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:59 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I had flu and pneumonia jabs the other day on different arms. I think it is pneumonia one that is causing me the most trouble. My arm is very sore and even causing numbness in my fingers. Is this a normal reaction?
I am not a doctor and don't even play on TV, but the numbness sounds concerning, I would say talk to your doctor or wherever you got the vaccination from about it. Better safe than sorry when it comes to potential nerve damage and stuff
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:55 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I had flu and pneumonia jabs the other day on different arms. I think it is pneumonia one that is causing me the most trouble. My arm is very sore and even causing numbness in my fingers. Is this a normal reaction?
I am not a doctor but flu vaccination IIRC can cause Guillan barré syndrome. Numbness and pain in extremity matches it. But so probably do 100 of other stuff. If it increase, I would consult somebody ASAP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilla...C3%A9_syndrome

ETA: Symptom is weakness in limb when it increase.

Quote:
Some cases may be triggered by the influenza virus and potentially influenza vaccine. An increased incidence of Guillain–Barré syndrome followed influenza immunization that followed the 1976 swine flu outbreak (H1N1 A/NJ/76); 8.8 cases per million recipients developed the complication. Since then, close monitoring of cases attributable to vaccination has demonstrated that influenza itself can induce GBS.
Emphasis mine.

Last edited by Aepervius; 22nd April 2017 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:13 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I had flu and pneumonia jabs the other day on different arms. I think it is pneumonia one that is causing me the most trouble. My arm is very sore and even causing numbness in my fingers. Is this a normal reaction?
Yes it is the pneumonia jab, and sore arm, redness, swelling, all normal.

I can't comment on the numbness, too many variables. Do you have carpal tunnel syndrome? If so a little increased swelling can cause numbness. That would not be worrisome.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:14 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I am not a doctor but flu vaccination IIRC can cause Guillan barré syndrome. ....
No just no.

GBS starts with the feet and within hours progresses up the body.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:15 PM   #6
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Good grief people, the numbness is not an issue unless it is severe enough LK wouldn't be posting here, he'd already be on his way to the doctor.

And I am a nurse practitioner who gives ~thousand vaccinations every year.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No just no.

GBS starts with the feet and within hours progresses up the body.
Actually it can start with the hands and feet and sometimes can take days to progress. But I fully agree it is unlikely.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:42 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes it is the pneumonia jab, and sore arm, redness, swelling, all normal.

I can't comment on the numbness, too many variables. Do you have carpal tunnel syndrome? If so a little increased swelling can cause numbness. That would not be worrisome.
Thank you. I was waiting for your contribution.

The numbness was only fleeting, but the arm is still sore, so much that I've been taking paracetamol. It's a little better his morning.

I'm a bit annoyed the doctor did not tell me about this possibility.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:46 PM   #9
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Maybe it's a toomah.

Or any illness can bring on a flare of Shingles. Any itchy pimples? And did you get the shingles vax too? Though it may bring on an attack of sagging armpits, premature baldness,poor tire life,...
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Old 22nd April 2017, 03:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm a bit annoyed the doctor did not tell me about this possibility.
What business is it of yours?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:47 PM   #11
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The redness and swelling have certainly increased overnight, and is now below my elbow. Photobucket is not working so I can't show it here. My doctor is closed today, so I will wait to see if the swelling is down by tomorrow.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:29 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Actually it can start with the hands and feet and sometimes can take days to progress. But I fully agree it is unlikely.
Hands and feet and the symptoms are not, "my hands are a little numb".

Also, reexamination of the data showed it was only questionably related to flu vaccine and only in a couple years since the 70s.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:32 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Thank you. I was waiting for your contribution.

The numbness was only fleeting, but the arm is still sore, so much that I've been taking paracetamol. It's a little better his morning.

I'm a bit annoyed the doctor did not tell me about this possibility.
Yeah, they definitely should have warned you. Paracetamol is the appropriate treatment.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:43 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The redness and swelling have certainly increased overnight, and is now below my elbow. Photobucket is not working so I can't show it here. My doctor is closed today, so I will wait to see if the swelling is down by tomorrow.
In the US, I am required by law to give the Vaccine Information Statement to patients when I vaccinate them.
Quote:
About half of people who get PPSV have mild side effects, such as redness or pain where the shot is given, which go away within about two days.
Red and warm to the elbow is a bit more than mild but I've seen similar reactions rarely and while annoying, are not usually serious.

As long as you don't have a rash or swelling at sites separate from your upper arm, or any sensation of airway tightness, it sounds like you are just having a moderate but not worrisome reaction.

It should be getting better by tomorrow.

You can also use a heating pad or other form of heat off and on. Increasing the circulation increases the speed of resolution.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 22nd April 2017 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:55 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
In the US, I am required by law to give the Vaccine Information Statement to patients when I vaccinate them.

Red and warm to the elbow is a bit more than mild but I've seen similar reactions rarely and while annoying, are not usually serious.

As long as you don't have a rash or swelling at sites separate from your upper arm, or any sensation of airway tightness, it sounds like you are just having a moderate but not worrisome reaction.

It should be getting better by tomorrow.

You can also use a heating pad or other form of heat off and on. Increasing the circulation increases the speed of resolution.
Thanks again. My wife made up a hot water bottle last night. I might do it again.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:55 PM   #16
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The pain is pretty normal. It can feel like someone straight up used your arm as a punching bag. I've had that reaction before. Never the numbness, but it doesn't sound like that big of a deal.

Rub some dirt on it and walk it off like a real man. Geez!
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:03 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by foophil View Post
The pain is pretty normal. It can feel like someone straight up used your arm as a punching bag. I've had that reaction before. Never the numbness, but it doesn't sound like that big of a deal.

Rub some dirt on it and walk it off like a real man. Geez!
I traded in my man card when I turned 65. I'm now a pathetic shadow of my former ironman self.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:10 PM   #18
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I think you are going to have to come to term with the fact you appear to be dying from this procedure. can I have your shoes?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:33 PM   #19
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I get the flu vaccine every year, and have done so since it was first made available to me.

Every time I get soreness in the arm, and a general feeling of achyness all over (lasts about two days).

In my case, however, I've never had swelling much more than a mild swelling up to a couple of inches from the vaccination site.

Having said all that, I've had influenza twice, and I really, really do not want to go through that again if I can avoid it.

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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:38 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I get the flu vaccine every year, and have done so since it was first made available to me.

Every time I get soreness in the arm, and a general feeling of achyness all over (lasts about two days).

In my case, however, I've never had swelling much more than a mild swelling up to a couple of inches from the vaccination site.

Having said all that, I've had influenza twice, and I really, really do not want to go through that again if I can avoid it.

Thanks, but it's the pneumonia jab which is playing up. The flu jab was in the other arm, and all I have there is a bit to of tenderness
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:39 PM   #21
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I usually skip the flu shot, since I'm not in a high-risk group and I'm not regularly in contact with people who are in a high-risk group. Another ten years and I should probably start getting it again.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:51 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I usually skip the flu shot, since I'm not in a high-risk group and I'm not regularly in contact with people who are in a high-risk group. Another ten years and I should probably start getting it again.
One of the benefits of being over 65 and having the precious pensioner card (even though I work full time- Australia is a wonderful place) is that I get health care free. Is easier to get the jab when you can't have to pay.

The reason I got the pneumonia jab is that I've had it at least twice (when I was hospitalised both times) and possibly another two times. I'm sure people realise that pneumonia is several times worse than influenza.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I usually skip the flu shot, since I'm not in a high-risk group and I'm not regularly in contact with people who are in a high-risk group. Another ten years and I should probably start getting it again.
It's unfortunate that so many otherwise critically thinking people are not aware that influenza on occasion kills otherwise healthy people.

Yes, that is rare. And yes, the flu vaccine is not the best vaccine we have.

But when you look at risk/cost vs benefit of the flu vaccine there is no question whatsoever the vaccine is the better choice than no vaccine.

The idea only people with risk factors die from flu or need the vaccine is an easily disproved fallacy.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:00 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
... I'm sure people realise that pneumonia is several times worse than influenza.
Pneumococcal vaccine addresses about 80% of cases of pneumonia. It is an important vaccine for specific groups of people.

Influenza infection not only can cause viral pneumonia by itself, it also sets a person up for secondary bacterial pneumonia.

Influenza is one of the most underestimated pathogens in modern society.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 22nd April 2017 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:00 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's unfortunate that so many otherwise critically thinking people are not aware that influenza on occasion kills otherwise healthy people.

Yes, that is rare. And yes, the flu vaccine is not the best vaccine we have.

But when you look at risk/cost vs benefit of the flu vaccine there is no question whatsoever the vaccine is the better choice than no vaccine.

The idea only people with risk factors die from flu or need the vaccine is an easily disproved fallacy.
Yes, I agree. I should get the shot.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I agree. I should get the shot.
Great! We're done here.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I agree. I should get the shot.
Good for you. Go get it now. It's only $10 in Chemist Warehouse.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:09 PM   #28
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I'm going out tomorrow. I'll get it then.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's unfortunate that so many otherwise critically thinking people are not aware that influenza on occasion kills otherwise healthy people.

Yes, that is rare. And yes, the flu vaccine is not the best vaccine we have.

But when you look at risk/cost vs benefit of the flu vaccine there is no question whatsoever the vaccine is the better choice than no vaccine.

The idea only people with risk factors die from flu or need the vaccine is an easily disproved fallacy.
Good point. Even though there is a curve of low-risk to high-risk, that means that everyone is at risk to some degree. What benefit is there to playing dice with your body?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:17 PM   #30
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As I just said to Nova in chat, I didn't really need an argument to get me to go get the shot, all I needed was someone to say "you really should go get the shot".
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:21 PM   #31
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I won't get autism, will I?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:32 PM   #32
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Only if you had it before.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:54 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ArmillarySphere View Post
Only if you had it before.
I don't think autism existed when I was a child, so how would I know?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:45 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm going out tomorrow. I'll get it then.
You rock!
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

The idea only people with risk factors die from flu or need the vaccine is an easily disproved fallacy.
Numbers comparison please. What percentage of flu deaths are in each risk group. And can we convert to comparative risk rather than relative risk?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:55 AM   #36
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Does the fact that a patien react like LK and others here, mean the vaccine does have a strain that the patient is not protected against already? If a body fight it, does that mean it had less innate protection?

Or is it just a reaction to a carrier, like egg yolk?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:32 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I had flu and pneumonia jabs the other day on different arms. I think it is pneumonia one that is causing me the most trouble. My arm is very sore and even causing numbness in my fingers. Is this a normal reaction?
I know I have not had it for either, but our chemistries are not all exactly the same!!!
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Old 23rd April 2017, 11:21 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Numbers comparison please. What percentage of flu deaths are in each risk group. And can we convert to comparative risk rather than relative risk?
I don't recall you being an anti-vaxxer.

Almost no one dies from a flu shot, so all you need is a couple deaths from flu to make the vaccine beneficial. Anti-vaxxer web sites claim any death paid for out of the Vaccine Injury and Compensation Act is a confirmed death from the vaccine but that is not true. For example if you get GBS within 12 weeks of a flu shot you can claim it was vaccine related. But when large data sets are looked at, there is no greater rate of GBS among people getting flu shots vs those that don't.

I refuse to drive clicks on the site so I'm not going to post the link but one of these sites claims in the US: "89 of the 113 cases settled were for injuries and deaths due to the flu vaccine."

So 89 people supposedly met the criteria for a flu vaccine related reaction. That's out of more than 100 million doses of vaccine given.

The numbers you request vary from year to year and at the beginning of influenza season we don't know precisely what the morbidity and mortality will be in otherwise healthy people, nor do we know how effective the vaccine will be.

But we do know from half a century of data that the vaccine prevents deaths and rarely causes it.

CDC has a number of reports covering various years with detailed analysis of influenza morbidity and the vaccine prevented deaths.

Here's one: Estimated Influenza Illnesses, Medical Visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths Averted by Vaccination in the United States

And another: Estimated Influenza Illnesses, Medical Visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths Averted by Vaccination in the United States

Death of Teen Athlete a Reminder That Flu Can Kill Anyone
Quote:
Linton, who died last week in Baltimore, is among the dozens of often perfectly healthy children who die from influenza every year in the U.S.
That's a low estimate and doesn't include otherwise healthy adults.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:27 PM   #39
casebro
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

The idea only people with risk factors die from flu or need the vaccine is an easily disproved fallacy.
So go ahead, easily disprove it. How many deaths were in the low risk group?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:41 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't recall you being an anti-vaxxer.

Almost no one dies from a flu shot, so all you need is a couple deaths from flu to make the vaccine beneficial. Anti-vaxxer web sites claim any death paid for out of the Vaccine Injury and Compensation Act is a confirmed death from the vaccine but that is not true. For example if you get GBS within 12 weeks of a flu shot you can claim it was vaccine related. But when large data sets are looked at, there is no greater rate of GBS among people getting flu shots vs those that don't.

I refuse to drive clicks on the site so I'm not going to post the link but one of these sites claims in the US: "89 of the 113 cases settled were for injuries and deaths due to the flu vaccine."

So 89 people supposedly met the criteria for a flu vaccine related reaction. That's out of more than 100 million doses of vaccine given.

The numbers you request vary from year to year and at the beginning of influenza season we don't know precisely what the morbidity and mortality will be in otherwise healthy people, nor do we know how effective the vaccine will be.

But we do know from half a century of data that the vaccine prevents deaths and rarely causes it.

CDC has a number of reports covering various years with detailed analysis of influenza morbidity and the vaccine prevented deaths.

Here's one: Estimated Influenza Illnesses, Medical Visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths Averted by Vaccination in the United States

.......
The last link, table 3, says 12,000 deaths were averted by vaccines,of 330,000,000 people. So my chances of dying of fly in my life are miniscule. Or, maybe 99.6% chance of NOT dying from the flu. Take the vax, cut the chance by 1/2? So, those who get the vax have a 99.8% chance of not dying from flu. Not a lot of benefit for any given patient.

I AM pro-vax. I do get the flu shot every year. But I am also able to look at the benefit ratio with both eyes open. The science of medication seems to have picked all the low hanging fruit, with other more impactful vaccines, and antibiotics. As they incorporate genetics, we will see much greater efficacy. You know, some people are immune to the flu, or AIDS, or... And some people are more subject to those. When we can vaccinate only the 2% most susceptible, and do ALL of those patients, we will eradicate those deaths completely. Rather than giving the vax to 2/3s of 330,000,000 people to prevent 1 per 40,000 from dying.
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Last edited by casebro; 23rd April 2017 at 03:46 PM.
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