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#81 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,311
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#82 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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At least one placebo controlled study found flu vaccinations in adults caused no more 'flu-like' symptoms than placebo. In children it is more common, and though it probably does occur rarely in adults, the belief flu vaccinations cause 'flu-like' symptoms is mostly myth.
We give flu vaccinations during peak upper respiratory infection season. The vast majority of the time, people erroneously blame the cold they got near the time of their flu shot on the vaccine. A mild sore arm is a tad more common. |
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#83 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,311
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That makes sense. The pharmacist told me that it might happen anyway.
My arm was quite sore for that 24 hours, but it was the good kind of sore - the kind of sore you get after a good workout. A wholesome kind of sore that you know is well-earned, and for good reason. |
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#84 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,967
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The development of the flu vaccine every year is an amazing process. Each year the 'world' meets to decide what to put in the flu vaccine, (actually twice a year once for winter in each hemisphere), they review emerging strains from global spotter sites; China is a likely source of new flu strains. They also look at what happened over winter in the Southern hemisphere (or vice versa). Then each country will put in an order for flu vaccines; each vaccine is usually against two flu A and one flu B strain. The companies then have a matter of months to develop test and manufacture millions of doses of flu vaccine. The vaccine is not just against last years strains but against what is predicted to be circulating, as people become immune to circulating strains they become less prevalent.
As said the immune response is strain specific so new strains evoke a poor immune response in general there is a drift due to small mutations so there is some underlying immunity. What is looked out for is a jump in the flu genetics due to recombination of strains that produce a flu to which there is no immunity these are the pandemic strains (actually they may be old strains that circulated a generation ago that no one now alive is immune to). |
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#85 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,967
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This is not true. Throwing up due to coughing fits is most likely to be adult whooping cough. Cough is not a big feature of flu.
The rest of what you posted fits with flu. Flu causes an abrupt onset (going from well to feeling really unwell in hours) illness. With high fever (> 38C) shivers and sweats, there is usually profound muscle ache and fatigue. Cough is usually a minor part, there may be GI upset but this is rare. It may progress to pneumonia with breathlessness and death within days (but hopefully not). Runny noses, coughs, sore throat are usually rhinovirus, coronavirus, adenovirus all the things that cause colds. |
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#86 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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Where did you get this idea?
In humans, influenza viruses replicate in the ciliated epithelium of conducting airways (15), which consists of several distinct cell types with different functions (16). Cough is a common feature in flu. Sudden onset, high fever, muscle aches and headache, anorexia which can include nausea and vomiting, and cough are classic flu symptoms. It's a respiratory infection, more often centered in the trachea rather than just the pharynx. |
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#87 |
Winking at the Moon
Moderator Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,697
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So-called "gastric flu" is not influenza, it's a stomach bug/something you've eaten.
You can be sure you have real flu if there is a briefcase with a million pounds/dollars just out of reach, and you feel too ill to get to it. Anything less is a bad cold. I am immunosuppressed because of the drugs I am prescribed to control my Crohn's disease, so I get the flu jab every year and have had the pneumonia jab too, which gave me a sore arm for a few days. |
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Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
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#88 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,781
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#89 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,401
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I get the worst coughs during recovery, when the throat seems to be itchy from healing.
Quote:
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#90 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,967
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I was responding to a post that said it was not flu unless you get a severe spasmodic cough that made you retch. I did not say you do not get cough, but that it was not the dominating symptom. The dominating feature in flu is abrupt onset fever fatigue muscle aches and head ache in contrast to the common cold where runny nose and cough and feeling a bit miserable are the dominating symptoms. Yes you do cough and sneeze. Yes it is a respiratory virus. It certainly effects the airways into the lungs (indeed this is the crucial event in transfer from birds to mammals - in birds flu is a intestinal illness, the flu virus has to develop a mutation allowing it to bind to mammal airways to jump from birds to mammals where it becomes a respiratory infection.
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#91 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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#92 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,401
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#93 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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#94 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,401
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#95 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,015
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For those who are saying they never get the flu, don't be too smug. That described me into my 40s. In recent years I get it about once a year.
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#96 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,311
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You get influenza yearly? That's harsh.
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#97 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,875
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Thanks for making me feel like a young whippersnapper.
![]() If have already said that I will start taking injections if my status warrants it in the future. In the mean time, here is a question for the (internet) experts: Can I be a carrier of the influenza virus and pass it on to others even if I don't have the flu? Is this changed if I have the inoculations? |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#98 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,015
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#99 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,781
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#100 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,015
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#101 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,257
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In defense of my thought processes as quibbled over above:
1) the OP subject IS about the flu jab. 2) I use deaths in most of my comparisons because they are absolute data. No "I think I had the flu", no muddling by what is bad enough for hospitalization. You can take my comparison and extrapolate to any level you want. 3) Comparative risk is much more valuable to an individual than relative risk. Relative risk says the flu vaccine is good for the world, but LK is the one that suffers the side effects. He needs to take comparative risk into consideration. Of course his consideration must include his own personal susceptibility to pneumonia, which was not mentioned until way later in this thread. I've muddled bout in genes enough to know that we are all unique. We can't each assume that what is good for the over all population is good for ourselves. SG, how many times have you said to a patient, or thought to your self "lets try this, and see how it works for you"? You must be familiar with CYP2D6 enzyme, and how it's variations cause variations in the function of about 25% of medications. My own health as the example on which I base my logic- I do have a genetic metabolic problem, AMPD1 deficiency. It makes my muscle sore ALL THE TIME. So on the one hand I make sure to get the flu vaccine, I don't need more soreness. On the other hand, I can't take statins. They seem to give muscle soreness to about 20% of people, and just kill me. |
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Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook. |
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#102 |
Not a doctor.
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Location: Texas
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#103 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,257
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Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook. |
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#104 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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With the exception of people with conditions the flu vaccine is contraindicated for, very large population studies tend to turn up risks that can be applied to the population at large.
When it comes to risk/cost of vaccinating vs benefit/risk of not vaccinating, the calculation applies to individuals as well as to the population as a whole. We are not all that unique. I don't find this relevant. There are people for whom the flu vaccine is contraindicated. |
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#105 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,015
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#106 |
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,462
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Hah! Just had my annual flu vaccine (thanks work)
However, weirdly for me, 24 hours have passed and I have had no response at all. (Usually I get the sore arm). There was one year, where my response was terrible, so I phoned up CSL (the manufacturer here) and asked if I should report my symptoms. They were very keen, and put me on to a person who went through a series of questions. Once they were finished they said something like: "There were seven strains in this year's vaccine, and we are getting a lot more calls." ![]() |
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We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato. |
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#107 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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#108 |
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,462
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Adelaide, South Australia.
I could easily be mis-remembering the number, it was a long time ago. I can think of one reason it could happen, we get a lot of visitors from Asia and Europe. I'll see if I can find anything about it online. |
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We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato. |
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#109 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,311
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Yeah, the one I got I think had three strains.
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#110 |
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,462
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Interesting, at least the last two years, mine has been marked as quadravalent...
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We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato. |
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#111 |
Nasty Woman
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#112 |
Scholar
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 71
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I had an anatomy professor once who said that vaccines constituted sort of a mild challenge to the immune system.
She said she thought it was best to have vaccinations on different days. When her children were babies, she wouldn't let the pediatrician give her babies more than once vaccine per day. She'd split up the shots and go to a Monday/Wednesday/Friday schedule for, say, three different vaccines that were supposed to be given within the same month. It was more trouble and expense, but she felt better about it. Maybe, next year, do your flu and pneumonia shots on different days and you won't feel so bad. |
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#113 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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#114 |
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,120
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Including me. I've had it twice in my life, a mild case when I was about seven years old, and a severe case when I was twenty-five. In the latter, I really should have been hospitalized for it, but wasn't thanks to the fact that I was still living at home with my religious fanatic parents. That was quite possibly the worst week of my life. And even if they get it wrong, oftentimes the strains are similar enough that the vaccine provides at least partial protection, reducing the severity of symptoms or giving the immune response a slight "head start". I've had the quadrivalent every year for the last five, as soon as it started to become available to people outside the high-risk groups. I've had influenza several times in my life, one time when it progressed to full-blown pneumonia. That was the same year I had chicken pox, about 5 months after, so it's possible my immune system had not fully recovered. |
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"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon |
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#115 |
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,462
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You certainly have my sympathy.
The last time I had it, I ended up with Bell's Palsy about two weeks after recovering. Half of my face was non-responsive for about 18 months, and I still have reduced functionality (and crossed wires*) now. At least I only had to tape my eye closed for the first week. Yay for brain plasticity! But I really, really don't want to get the flu again. *my right eye closes when I eat or drink. |
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We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato. |
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#116 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,257
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So flu can get into particular nerves and cause problems? Like shingles? I've gotten a lazy eye the last few years, I wonder if it started with the flu back when? Or is it latent prob from a head injury to that side? It was my worst concussion, I needed an anti nausea shot that time.
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Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook. |
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#117 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 663
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And that is the best argument for everyone else getting the vaccine. Yes, the individual benefit is quite small, (One might even calculate it is barely worth the sore arm) but when the population is largely immune, epidemics will be much less likely, and therefore the most vulnerable will be protected.
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#118 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
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#119 |
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,462
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The best I can reply to this, is I don't think anyone knows...
The advice that I was given at the time was that Bell's palsy may be caused by a virus (where it is not caused by a physical injury), and that a number of viruses are implicated. These include influenza and several kinds of herpes. So, in my case, could have been influenza (timing) or the cold-sore virus (herpes simplex type 1) getting away from the immune system because of the influenza. I was immediately given steroids and some kind of anti-viral medication, but the Drs explained, that there was little evidence to support either assisting. ![]() Still makes me very, very keen to get my flu shot every year. |
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We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato. |
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#120 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,524
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