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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:40 PM   #1
Skeptical Greg
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The Global Obesity Epidemic

Gary Taubes at Low Carb Houston, 2018

A long presentation, but very thought provoking IMO

The global obesity epidemic: Is dietary and animal fat the culprit?
Evidence based on 20 years of investigative journalism.


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I AGREE


The World Health Organization contends " The fundamental cause of
obesity and overweight is energy imbalance between calories consumed
and calories expended. "

Ultimately, CICO is valid.

However, can we continue to ignore the source of the calories, as these diseases continue to rise in spite of the diet and exercise guidelines
being recommended by the mainstream medical community for the last 50 or so years?
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Old 4th December 2018, 02:30 AM   #2
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Article in Discover Mag:

One Big Fat Truth


Quote:
The simplest explanation for obesity — too many calories in and too few calories spent — isn’t as exciting or exotic as some of the unproven ideas out there, which may explain in part why it’s so doggedly ignored. But there’s another reason for its relative unpopularity: Researchers want to avoid blaming and shaming

Quote:
To be fair, the other causes of obesity currently under investigation are not figments of the researchers’ imaginations. Yes, there is a difference in how your body processes a diet that’s very high in refined carbohydrates. The microbiome does affect how your body absorbs calories. Some people are genetically predisposed to having a tougher time managing their weight. The issue, says Lichtenstein, is the magnitude. These effects are real but small, and swamped by the simple equation no one really likes: Calories in > calories out = weight gain
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Old 4th December 2018, 06:53 AM   #3
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One thing I noticed in Hawaii (a huge melting pot from both sides of the Pacific Ocean) is how fat all the Americans seemed. Admittedly, many of the islanders were pretty hefty also, even more so.
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Old 4th December 2018, 07:10 AM   #4
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Eating too much, exercising too little, bad parenting, that accounts for almost all obesity worldwide.
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Old 4th December 2018, 07:21 AM   #5
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Lack of gut microbiome diversity would be my guess: it is something that happens when animals live together in close proximity.
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Old 4th December 2018, 07:39 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Article in Discover Mag:

One Big Fat Truth
The writer of that article seems to fundamentally misunderstand obesity research. No obesity researcher is trying to find an alternative to "too many calories in and too few calories spent". There is consensus on that. What they're doing is work out the details of how exactly that works in individuals.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:10 AM   #7
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Although I won't say that certain foods (animal fat, sugar, you name it) don't play a role, IMO obesity stems largely from the fact that humans, for the most part did not evolve in an environment where food was continuously plentiful. If you're never quite sure where your next meal is coming from, there is survival value in packing on some fat when food is available. It's famine insurance.

However, when food is readily available all the time, and you just keep getting fatter, it's obviously not healthy.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:22 AM   #8
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It’s all part of a plot by the Atlantan Sharks to make humans fatter, and therefore more edible.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:23 AM   #9
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It is interesting that through most of the history of our species we had problems with not getting enough to eat, and now it is just the opposite. Cheap calories abound.
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Old 4th December 2018, 02:25 PM   #10
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Calories weren't that much cheaper in the few decades prior to the 70's when the obesity and T2D numbers started to climb.

However, the 70's are when the US Government began to publish official dietary guidelines that included lowering fat, and increasing carbohydrates.

Of course they gave a lot of word play to healthy fruits and vegetables, but that is not what the fast food and giant food processing companies ran with and filled up 90% of grocery store shelves with.
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Old 4th December 2018, 03:10 PM   #11
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What I find amazing is that we are not all fat or all obese, to keep pretty much the same weight all year despite changes in activity levels and fairly arbitrary intake requires some pretty good matching of appetite and basal metabolic rate. Even a few calories mismatch on a daily basis would accumulate over time.

I blame cannabis and the munchies for the obesity epidemic; when everyone smoked tobacco heavily they were thin and died early of heart attacks and lung cancer, with cannabis they grow obese and develop diabetes. (OK, not really! Please don't attack me on this.)
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Old 4th December 2018, 03:16 PM   #12
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Its really easy to explain. Its easy and cheap to buy food that is high in carbs, more so than it used to be. Plus, people on average do less physical work than they used to.
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Old 4th December 2018, 03:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
It is interesting that through most of the history of our species we had problems with not getting enough to eat, and now it is just the opposite. Cheap calories abound.
Advancements in agriculture, transportation & distribution systems, and birth control.
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Old 4th December 2018, 03:23 PM   #14
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No one makes people ( adults ) eat what they eat, but for the most part they don't seem to question that it is often driving disease.
People trust the medical establishment to give them healthy nutrition advice, and it's not happening.

Meanwhile, drug companies make billions, throwing chemicals at symptoms and not causes.
All with the support of such organizations such as the American Heart Association, and the National Institute of Health.
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Old 5th December 2018, 07:43 AM   #15
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I listened to an NPR segment earlier this year about the relationship between Pacific Islander obesity and.... Turkey butts.
Pre-war, folks living in places like Samoa and others were typically of average size and quite healthy. After the war, we began exporting tons of these fatty little bits-o-turkey as the market here in the US had fallen off (they are considered “soul food” in some areas)

The Pacific Islanders loved ‘em, especially deep-fried, and consume them by the ton...With the result that obesity has become a major health problem.
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Old 5th December 2018, 08:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I listened to an NPR segment earlier this year about the relationship between Pacific Islander obesity and.... Turkey butts.
Pre-war, folks living in places like Samoa and others were typically of average size and quite healthy. After the war, we began exporting tons of these fatty little bits-o-turkey as the market here in the US had fallen off (they are considered “soul food” in some areas)

The Pacific Islanders loved ‘em, especially deep-fried, and consume them by the ton...With the result that obesity has become a major health problem.
I'll take your turkey butts and raise you mutton flaps.

Eat little more than mutton flaps, or turkey butts, and get fat. Belly pork, too. I knew a man who weighed 400lbs. He once fell on his wife. He ate belly pork sourced from a butcher in Morecambe who supplied him in bulk. In bulk, get it?
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:42 PM   #17
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At least in US grocery stores there is a trend, more and more processed foods with three traits, refined carbohydrates, high fat, and sugar
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I listened to an NPR segment earlier this year about the relationship between Pacific Islander obesity and.... Turkey butts.
Pre-war, folks living in places like Samoa and others were typically of average size and quite healthy. After the war, we began exporting tons of these fatty little bits-o-turkey as the market here in the US had fallen off (they are considered “soul food” in some areas)

The Pacific Islanders loved ‘em, especially deep-fried, and consume them by the ton...With the result that obesity has become a major health problem.
If all they ate were the turkey butts along with their traditional diet, I don't think that would be a problem.

One of many articles:

This Is Why Pacific Islanders Are The Fattest People In The World

Quote:
Residents of Pacific nations have largely replaced locally-produced island foods, such as fresh fish, meat, fruits, and vegetables with imported foods of poor nutritional quality such as rice, flour, sugar, and canned meats.
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Old 5th December 2018, 04:19 PM   #19
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Personally I bet my life that the animal fats are the healthiest for us.

Interesting read: "The Oiling of America", by Enig and Fallon: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c92...0c38a49021.pdf
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Old 5th December 2018, 04:42 PM   #20
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That's my bet also, but all bets are off if you combine the animal fats with junk foods.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:03 AM   #21
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It is thought provoking how he continues his long-debunked, pseudo-scientific arguments.

If you look at this rebuttal (by an actual scientist) to his Good Calories, Bad Calories book from 2010 it is surprising how much applies to this speech from 2018.

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
However, can we continue to ignore the source of the calories, as these diseases continue to rise in spite of the diet and exercise guidelines
being recommended by the mainstream medical community for the last 50 or so years?
There's a lot going on in this sentence. Who is ignoring the source of calories in what context? Other than Taubes ignoring modern research provided by his own institution, of course.

What makes you think people are following the guidelines? The CDC reports only 23% of adults are meeting the exercise guidelines.

For dietary guidelines:

Quote:
87% of Americans consume less than the recommended 2˝ cups of vegetables per day.

...

72% of Americans consume less than the recommended 27 g of oils per day. That's about two tablespoons.

...

44% of Americans consume less than the recommended 6 oz of grains per day. That's about 6 slices of bread, or 1˝ bagels.

42% of Americans consume less than the recommended 5˝ oz of proteins per day. That's about 1 chicken breast, or 6 tbps of peanut butter.

...

71% of Americans consume more than the recommended limit of 200 calories of saturated fat per day.

70% of Americans consume more than the recommended limit of 200 calories of added sugars per day.
Linky.

Is the mainstream medical establishment guidelines at fault because people aren't following the guidelines?
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Old 6th December 2018, 11:44 AM   #22
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For me it is the carbs, who knew if you eat three times as much as you are suppose to you get obese!
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:24 PM   #23
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Taubes' " Good Carlories, Bad Calories " may have some shortcomings, but the linked discussion still has a lot of insight into the obesity problem.

The fact remains that high carb diets are less satiating than high fat, and therefore are more inclined to cause one to over-eat. High carb diets also drive insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes..

When I refer to diet, I am speaking of a way of eating, rather than some un-sustainable in the long run, quick weight loss scheme.


Here is an article where Taubes addresses some critics.


Nutrition Heretic’ Gary Taubes on the Long Road Back From a Big, Fat Public Shaming
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The fact remains that high carb diets are less satiating than high fat, and therefore are more inclined to cause one to over-eat. High carb diets also drive insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes..
Assumes facts not in evidence. Wait a minute, I think I've posted about these exact same claims before. It turns out, it was in response to you as well .

Key points on satiety:

Quote:
Food macronutrients and satiety
Classic satiety research has typically looked at the physiological effects of food ingredients in isolation while holding all other contributors to satiety constant. This important work has highlighted that two foods of equal energy may have distinct effects on satiety if their macronutrient compositions differ. For example, women whose diet was modified to be high in protein and carbohydrate for a day reported higher levels of satiety compared to another day when the principle energy source of their diet was fat, despite the diets being matched for energy content (Westerterp-Plantenga, Rolland, Wilson, & Westerterp, 1999). The idea of a hierarchy of satiating effects of macronutrients in the order of protein > carbohydrate > fat (Blundell & Macdiarmid, 1997) goes some way to explain why not all calories will have the same impact on satiety, and has been hugely influential in the development of enhanced satiety foods. Nowadays, for many people, “high protein” is synonymous with feeling full and is central to most satiety claims in the appetite management food market. Protein has taken centre stage as the high satiety food constitute because of considerable experimental and real-world research indicating that increasing the protein composition of the diet without changing net energy can lead to enhanced feelings of satiety (Paddon-Jones et al., 2008). Possible physiological mechanisms underlying this effect include diet induced thermogenesis (Halton & Hu, 2004) and gastrointestinal hormonal signalling (Veldhorst et al., 2008), while two recent studies indicated that the sensory experience of ingesting protein is also important (Bertenshaw et al., 2013, Masic and Yeomans, 2013). Randomized trials of high protein diets on weight management provide evidence that these types of eating plans can support longer-term weight loss (e.g.Leidy et al., 2007, Skov et al., 1999, Weigle et al., 2005) and potentially aid future weight maintenance (Due et al., 2004, Westerterp-Plantenga et al., 2004). In the laboratory the satiating effects of high protein foods or meals have been compared to iso-energetic lower protein counterparts, typically using “preload” methodology where the measure of satiety is post-consumption subjective ratings of appetite and/or food intake. The majority of these types of studies indicate that high protein foods deliver better satiety than energy matched foods with lower levels of protein (e.g.Astbury et al., 2010, Bertenshaw et al., 2009, Booth et al., 1970, Fischer et al., 2004, Hill and Blundell, 1986, Rolls et al., 1988, Teff et al., 1989), though this not always reported (de Graaf et al., 1992, Vozzo et al., 2003). Overall this body of literature indicates that increasing the protein content of a food is an effective way to deliver enhanced satiety to the consumer, but manipulating the macronutrient content of a food while keeping energy constant means it is difficult to be certain whether these effects are due to the superior satiating effect of protein, the reduction of less satiating nutrients carbohydrate and fat, or a combination of both of these. Moreover, it is not known whether these effects are maintained after repeat experience; for these reasons EFSA are yet to approve claims based on a general protein effect (European Commission, 2007, European Commission, 2012).

High protein food products invariably contain other energy-yielding nutrients, usually both carbohydrate and fat. Therefore, in order to optimise high satiety products the carbohydrate-to-fat ratio should also be considered. Protein's position at the top of the satiety hierarchy is fairly well accepted but the order of carbohydrate and fat is often disputed, with this debate further complicated by variability in glycaemic responses to carbohydrate ingestion which can influence satiety signalling (Brand-Miller, Holt, Pawlak, & McMillan, 2002). With regard to satiety, the low-fat rhetoric of recent years seems justified: consuming more energy from carbohydrate than fat has been linked to reduced risk of being overweight or obese (Astrup et al., 2000, Gaesser, 2007), the implication being that high carbohydrate foods are more satiating than those that are high in fat. In free-feeding experiments when people are offered a range of high fat foods they tend to consume more energy than when they are offered high carbohydrate foods (Blundell, Green, & Burley, 1994), a phenomenon termed high fat hyperphagia or passive over consumption (Blundell & Tremblay, 1995). Importantly, this fat-related increased intake of energy does not lead to increased sensations of satiety (Blundell & Macdiarmid, 1997). In the laboratory, studies have found that high fat preloads are less satiating than energy matched high carbohydrate versions (e.g.Cotton et al., 1994, Holt, 1999, Robinson et al., 2005), though not in every case (e.g. de Graaf et al., 1992, Rolls et al., 1994). These mixed findings might be due to between study differences in participants characteristics (Chambers & Yeomans, 2011), and preload ingredients (Rolls & Bell, 1999). One particularly important property of fat is that per gram it delivers more than double the energy of carbohydrate and protein. The prevailing view is that fat's high energy density per unit weight largely accounts for its low satiety value (Blundell and Macdiarmid, 1997, Rolls and Bell, 1999). A high fat food will often be smaller in weight (and volume) than a high carbohydrate food of similar energy and this difference may affect the timing of the processing of the nutrients in the gut (Karhunen, Juvonen, Huotari, Purhonen, & Herzig, 2008) and also consumer beliefs about the likely consequence of consuming that food. That is, people tend to believe a small serving of food will not be enough to satisfy their hunger regardless of the energy it contains (Rolls, Drewnowski, & Ledikwe, 2005) and these satiety expectations are thought to play a key role in eating behaviour (Brunstrom, Shakeshaft, & Scott-Samuel, 2008).
Linky.

Quote:
Although the effects of dietary fat and carbohydrate on satiety are well documented, little is known about the impact of these macronutrients on food hedonics. We examined the effects of ad libitum and isoenergetic meals varying in fat and carbohydrate on satiety, energy intake and food hedonics. In all, sixty-five overweight and obese individuals (BMI=30·9 (sd 3·8) kg/m2) completed two separate test meal days in a randomised order in which they consumed high-fat/low-carbohydrate (HFLC) or low-fat/high-carbohydrate (LFHC) foods. Satiety was measured using subjective appetite ratings to calculate the satiety quotient. Satiation was assessed by intake at ad libitum meals. Hedonic measures of explicit liking (subjective ratings) and implicit wanting (speed of forced choice) for an array of HFLC and LFHC foods were also tested before and after isoenergetic HFLC and LFHC meals. The satiety quotient was greater after ad libitum and isoenergetic meals during the LFHC condition compared with the HFLC condition (P=0·006 and P=0·001, respectively), whereas ad libitum energy intake was lower in the LFHC condition (P<0·001). Importantly, the LFHC meal also reduced explicit liking (P<0·001) and implicit wanting (P=0·011) for HFLC foods compared with the isoenergetic HFLC meal, which failed to suppress the hedonic appeal of subsequent HFLC foods. Therefore, when coupled with increased satiety and lower energy intake, the greater suppression of hedonic appeal for high-fat food seen with LFHC foods provides a further mechanism for why these foods promote better short-term appetite control than HFLC foods.
Linky.


And on diabetes:

For "managing":
Quote:
“There have been debates for literally the whole history of diabetes about which kind of diet is best,” said Dr. C. Ronald Kahn, chief academic officer at Joslin, and no relation to Dr. Richard Kahn. But, he said, “the answer isn’t so straightforward.”

In support of a diet like Dr. Hallberg’s, there is one recent short-term study, by Kevin Hall of the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases and his colleagues, involving 17 overweight and obese men, none of whom had diabetes. They stayed in a clinical center where they ate carefully controlled diets. The researchers asked what would happen if calories were kept constant but the carbohydrate composition of a diet varied from high to very low. The answer was that insulin secretion dropped 50 percent with the very low carbohydrate diet, meaning that much less insulin was required to maintain normal blood glucose levels.

“Since diabetes results when the body can’t produce enough insulin, perhaps it is a good idea to reduce the amount of insulin it needs by eating very-low-carbohydrate diets,” Dr. Hall said.

Some longer-term studies, though, failed to show that low-carbohydrate diets benefited glucose control.

Even if diets are effective in the short term, Dr. Hall said, “the difficulty is adhering to the diet over the long term.”

In an analysis of weight loss diets (not specifically for diabetics) published this summer, he and Yoni Freedhoff of the University of Ottawa wrote: “Diet adherence is so challenging that it is poor even in short-term studies where all food is provided. When diets are prescribed, adherence is likely to diminish over the long term despite self-reports to the contrary.”

But short-term studies of just a few weeks, which constitute the bulk of the diet studies, can be misleading, said Dr. C. Ronald Kahn.

“In the short term, the low-carbohydrate diet sometimes does better on glycemic control,” he said. “But as time progresses, the difference mostly disappears. What counts is which diet helps most with long-term weight loss. ”

...

It is impossible, Dr. Hamdy said, to separate weight loss from the diet’s effects on diabetes because people following such a diet — which limits but does not forbid things like breads, pasta and rice — also lose weight.

But multiple studies have found that when it comes to weight loss — the only proven way to help with blood sugar control over the long term — there is no difference among diets that restrict calories, fat or carbohydrates.

Experts like Dr. David Nathan, the director of the diabetes center and clinical research center at Massachusetts General Hospital and a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, advise dieting for people with diabetes. But, he said, “when we advise people to be on diets, the major goal is to lose weight.”

What matters the most for controlling diabetes, Dr. Nathan said, “is how much weight you lose.”
Linky.

Quote:
Apart from this lowering of HbA1c over the short term, there is no superiority of low-carbohydrate diets in terms of glycemic control, weight, or LDL cholesterol.
Linky.

As for "getting":

Quote:
The glycemic index (GI) has been proposed as a way in which to categorize carbohydrate foods as those that are rapidly absorbed (high GI) or more slowly absorbed (low GI) on the basis of the postingestion glucose area under the curve. Several recent studies suggested that diets that have a low GI may improve insulin sensitivity (20) and that consuming a low GI diet may be associated with a lower risk for type 2 diabetes (11, 12). Other studies have not shown a relationship between GI and risk for diabetes (13). In a recent, carefully done interventional study, Kiens was unable to show any benefit to insulin sensitivity of a low GI diet as measured by the gold standard method, the euglycemic hyperinsulinemic clamp [reviewed in (3)].

Intake of dietary fat, particularly saturated fat, appears to be associated with insulin resistance in animals (23) and humans (21) and may predispose to the development of diabetes (10). It seems prudent at this time to advocate increased fiber consumption. Resistant starch or low GI diets may ultimately prove to have beneficial effects at some stage in the development of type 2 diabetes, but this remains controversial. Although simple sugars appear to cause insulin resistance in rats, adverse effects in humans have not been demonstrated conclusively. Future studies should use appropriate doses of these nutrients fed over moderate periods of time to populations presumed to be the most susceptible to their effects. These populations might be the young in the case of simple sugars and those with preexisting insulin resistance in the case of complex carbohydrate and fiber. Clear relationships may not emerge until it is possible to obtain a more accurate phenotype or even genotype of subjects because genetic heterogeneity likely underlies the heterogeneous response to these diets.
Linky.


Quote:
Here is an article where Taubes addresses some critics.

Nutrition Heretic’ Gary Taubes on the Long Road Back From a Big, Fat Public Shaming
That didn't address anything at all. It was self-congratulatory claptrap about how people bought into his fad diet pseudoscience.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:34 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Gary Taubes at Low Carb Houston, 2018

A long presentation, but very thought provoking IMO

The global obesity epidemic: Is dietary and animal fat the culprit?
Evidence based on 20 years of investigative journalism.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The World Health Organization contends " The fundamental cause of
obesity and overweight is energy imbalance between calories consumed
and calories expended. "

Ultimately, CICO is valid.

However, can we continue to ignore the source of the calories, as these diseases continue to rise in spite of the diet and exercise guidelines
being recommended by the mainstream medical community for the last 50 or so years?

People need to abide by the guidelines in order for them to work.

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Calories weren't that much cheaper in the few decades prior to the 70's when the obesity and T2D numbers started to climb.

However, the 70's are when the US Government began to publish official dietary guidelines that included lowering fat, and increasing carbohydrates.

Of course they gave a lot of word play to healthy fruits and vegetables, but that is not what the fast food and giant food processing companies ran with and filled up 90% of grocery store shelves with.
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What I find amazing is that we are not all fat or all obese.......
I don't. See below.

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
No one makes people ( adults ) eat what they eat, but for the most part they don't seem to question that it is often driving disease.
People trust the medical establishment to give them healthy nutrition advice, and it's not happening.

Meanwhile, drug companies make billions, throwing chemicals at symptoms and not causes.
All with the support of such organizations such as the American Heart Association, and the National Institute of Health.
Really? My doctor gives me advice, asks me if I want to see a nutritionist. There is also this thing called the internet - a wealth of information available to just about anyone. Google "why are my kids fat?"


Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
At least in US grocery stores there is a trend, more and more processed foods with three traits, refined carbohydrates, high fat, and sugar
Lot of truth above, yet somehow many people are not fat.

The information is out there. Yes, there is a lot of added sugar and processed foods, but that is no secret. People need to take an interest in their own health. Everyone should know by now that many things at the grocery store are unhealthy.

Put it this way - if your kids are fat then you are doing something wrong, it's pretty obvious. When I see parents with shopping carts full of crap food it angers me. Their fat kids are demanding Ho-Hos and Mom/Dad are fine with it.

If you see that your kids are fat and you can't get them to lose weight that is entirely your fault. I believe Baron touched on that above.

Ignorance is no excuse, people need to do the research for themselves. Many people read reviews and do a lot of research when buying a new TV or computer. Why not their own bodies, or their kids? Maintaining one's health should be a primary concern.

Being poor isn't much of an excuse either. I am living dirt cheap right now but I'm still healthy and not fat. My Dad is fat, his siblings are fat, his parents were a bit fat. My sister is fat. I am not. It can be done. I choose to watch what I eat, and I don't eat all that great, but my doctor says I'm fine and so does my scale.

People sit on their asses all day, their kids are inside on computers instead of mowing lawns, riding bikes, or - standing up. I rarely see kids outside in my town, in fact it's close to never. Nobody riding bikes, playing catch...so sad.

People are lazy and love to make excuses and play the victim these days. You and your kids are fat because you choose not to address it properly and I feel that is true in 99.999% of cases.

I see all kinds of studies and BS over the years, especially in this forum. Does anyone contend that it is impossible for some people to be at a healthy weight? If no then those excuses are crap.

Sure some people probably have a harder time, but it is still possible to be at a healthy weight. Nobody was born to be obese. I have some medical issues too but I take care of them. It's hard work sometimes. Being healthy takes a little effort.

I have the same attitude about my weight. If I start gaining weight I do something about it because I give a damn. No lip service, no denial that "but I'm eating healthy and still fat!" bullcrap. No you aren't.

We are The Land Of Excuses and excuses help nobody.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:36 PM   #26
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Look in a mirror. Are you fat? Then address it. Most people do not, or they try shortcut diets. Denial and laziness. My parents do it over and over again. "I don't eat a lot but I'm still fat!"

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Old 7th December 2018, 06:25 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post


Lot of truth above, yet somehow many people are not fat.

....
The genetic 'defect' for insulin resistance is in 40% of people, not everybody. Making weight a genetic variation like height. I'll lose 4" off my waist when you gain two inches of height.

Isn't it true that obesity is not a health concern if you are non-diabetic? But it is not the high serum sugar level that causes the grief, it's the high insulin level. They go hand in hand. The high insulin level acts like IGF- Insulin like growth factor. So you grow- in places like artery linings. And scar tissue builds up other places- like tendons, discs, heart valves....

And there is a direct link form that defective gene to hypertension. Seems the bad insulin receptor has an effect on the Pi3 enzyme, so you don;t make adequate Nitric Oxide to relax your arteries. Between the insulin receptor and PI3, the PPARg enzyme comes in to play. PPARg action is improved by Statin drugs. THAT is what statins actually do for people, it's a blood pressure treatment. Cholesterol levels have nothing to do with heart health, as is proven by various drugs the lowered LDL but increased the death rate.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:27 AM   #28
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My personal action plan includes stop shampooing my hair in the shower. I let the shampoo run down over my body. It says right on the bottle "Adds volume and body".

I'm going to use dish soap instead. It's bottles says "Dissolves hard to remove fats".
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:19 AM   #29
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While “to many calories for our activity level” may seem like the obvious answer, the real question is why some people take in more calories than their bodies use and why it’s becoming more common. It’s probably not 1 single cause but some things that may be playing a role:
Increased availability of calories in liquid form. Calories consumed as a liquid don’t appear to satiate hunger the way they do when consumed as a solid.
Increased usage of infant formula. Formula fed babies have higher rates of obesity as adults than breast fed babies. There is some speculation that bottle feeding itself may be part of this. The suggestion here is that many of our cues as to when to stop eating are developed in infancy and because breast feeding takes much more effort on the part of the infant they are less prone to eating until the bottle is empty and must learn to stop when they have had enough for their needs. The clearest link, however, is with infant formula itself.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:47 AM   #30
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Throughout history, every species has responded to food abundance by having more offspring. Until the last 50 years, when first world humans began having fewer children.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:30 PM   #31
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Hi Skeptical Greg

I've travelled a lot, and read quite a bit. One can see how culture so dominates decisions people make.

If you step off the plane in China for example, or vice-versa: travel from China to the USA... it is an average body fat difference of astonishing degree. So much that you have to laugh, that just stepping from one culture to the next is this drastic difference.

Southeast Asia in general, but something else I find important too. Their television and movies don't make intelligent people out to be the class dunces and butt of jokes by the star football player. In fact, there is no football player.

Instead there is a cheering line formed up by the underclassmen as the "varsity" squad rolls into the school on testing day. Businesses are closed so that there is no traffic to interfere in their rock stars getting to the math tests.

In Thailand, if you want serious jail time then say someting nasty about the King. If you want the death penalty in five SE Asian countries, then do something that is perfectly legal in many US States with pot. Countries have major cultural differences, not just "shaming" over something, but stuff they are willing to execute you for.

A country which has decided to eliminate the swimsuit competition in the Miss America pageant - lol.

I could point to a lot of things but that one cracks me up so much. You want to roll out the porkers as your definition of beauty? Culturally, there is a lot wrong with the USA and this is surely one of them.

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Old 7th December 2018, 02:49 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
why it’s becoming more common.
I don't have all the answers.

But that's only because I haven't been asked all the questions.

We certainly don't have an ideal as a cultural archetype. No Greek statues or works of art representing perfect development of the body in our ethos.

Quite the opposite. We have "diversity" crammed down our throats every day and "reverse fat-shaming" now.

You cannot condescend to fat. To behavior.

It's pretty easy to galvanize a nation behind an ideal. All you do is invoke some Master Race Thousand-Year World Empire vision and soon enough you got kids in boot camps, parents in the Brown Shirts and neighbors informing on one another, I mean sure there are some drawbacks too. But nobody is fat and everyone can run a mile with a pack and .50 caliber machine gun.

Maybe we can find a middle ground.

I tend to gravitate to extremes.
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Old 7th December 2018, 04:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The genetic 'defect' for insulin resistance is in 40% of people, not everybody. Making weight a genetic variation like height. I'll lose 4" off my waist when you gain two inches of height.

Isn't it true that obesity is not a health concern if you are non-diabetic? But it is not the high serum sugar level that causes the grief, it's the high insulin level. They go hand in hand. The high insulin level acts like IGF- Insulin like growth factor. So you grow- in places like artery linings. And scar tissue builds up other places- like tendons, discs, heart valves....

And there is a direct link form that defective gene to hypertension. Seems the bad insulin receptor has an effect on the Pi3 enzyme, so you don;t make adequate Nitric Oxide to relax your arteries. Between the insulin receptor and PI3, the PPARg enzyme comes in to play. PPARg action is improved by Statin drugs. THAT is what statins actually do for people, it's a blood pressure treatment. Cholesterol levels have nothing to do with heart health, as is proven by various drugs the lowered LDL but increased the death rate.
I don't dispute that there are some genetics involved, but these genetics haven't evolved in the last 40 years, which is where we see the explosion of obesity and T2D..
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Old 7th December 2018, 04:49 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
While “to many calories for our activity level” may seem like the obvious answer, the real question is why some people take in more calories than their bodies use and why it’s becoming more common. It’s probably not 1 single cause but some things that may be playing a role:
Increased availability of calories in liquid form. Calories consumed as a liquid don’t appear to satiate hunger the way they do when consumed as a solid.
Increased usage of infant formula. Formula fed babies have higher rates of obesity as adults than breast fed babies. There is some speculation that bottle feeding itself may be part of this. The suggestion here is that many of our cues as to when to stop eating are developed in infancy and because breast feeding takes much more effort on the part of the infant they are less prone to eating until the bottle is empty and must learn to stop when they have had enough for their needs. The clearest link, however, is with infant formula itself.
Type 2 Diabetes used to be called " Adult onset Diabetes ", but now More Kids Than Ever Have Type 2 Diabetes..

Quote:
The main culprit for the rise in type 2 among children, experts agree, is weight. "We don't even entertain the possibility of type 2 when a child isn't overweight," says Silva Arslanian, MD, a pediatric endocrinologist at the Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh.

P.S.

I don't suggest for a moment that any of these children are to blame. Their parents are guilty of child abuse in my opinion.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:05 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The genetic 'defect' for insulin resistance is in 40% of people, not everybody. Making weight a genetic variation like height. I'll lose 4" off my waist when you gain two inches of height.
That's... not how any of this works? Weight loss improves insulin sensitivity.

Quote:
Insulin-Resistant Individuals Can Lose Weight
Although there appears to be a perception that insulin-resistant/hyperinsulinemic individuals cannot lose weight, several studies, performed in different ethnic groups, have indicated that insulin-resistant individuals, using either insulin concentrations as a surrogate measure of insulin resistance or direct measures of insulin-mediated glucose disposal, either gain the same weight, or less weight, over time (18, 23, 55, 57, 59, 63). Furthermore, the ability to lose weight in response to calorie-restricted diets does not vary as a function of differences in either insulin resistance or insulin secretion (35, 37, 38). Consequently, although it is very difficult to carry out successful weight loss programs, the impediment is not because the individual may be insulin resistant /hyperinsulinemic.

Benefits of Weight Loss in Insulin-Resistant
Overweight/Obese Individuals Studies published 30 years ago demonstrated that insulin sensitivity improved when nondiabetic overweight/obese individuals lost weight, which was associated with a decrease in the plasma insulin response to oral glucose and lower
plasma TG concentrations (45). Similar improvements in insulin sensitivity have been demonstrated in several subsequent studies, and we have also shown that following moderate weight loss the slightly elevated daylong plasma glucose and FFA concentrations seen in nondiabetic, insulin-resistant, overweight individuals return to the values of equally overweight, insulin-sensitive person (35, 37, 38).
Linky.

Quote:
Isn't it true that obesity is not a health concern if you are non-diabetic?
No.

Quote:
Compared with metabolically healthy normal-weight individuals, obese persons are at increased risk for adverse long-term outcomes even in the absence of metabolic abnormalities, suggesting that there is no healthy pattern of increased weight.
Linky.

Quote:
Twenty-two prospective studies were eligible for the meta-analysis. Using random-effect models, pooled relative risks (RRs) were calculated for the combined effects of obesity with the presence or absence of metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, hypertension, diabetes, hyperlipidaemia and any of these metabolic factors.
...

None of the approaches clearly identified an obese subgroup not at increased risk of cardiovascular events compared with normal-weight healthy participants.
Linky.

Quote:
Clinicians should be hesitant to reassure patients that the metabolically benign phenotype is safe, as increased risk cardiovascular disease and death have been shown.
Linky.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:41 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
P.S.

I don't suggest for a moment that any of these children are to blame. Their parents are guilty of child abuse in my opinion.
Oh no you don't.

We need to come down on parents who let their kids walk to school on their own. Lemonaide stands run by kids. Zoning, business license, obstructing a right of way, send 'em to juvie hall.

Working is "child labor".

But that is what will get you prosecuted in this country, not for making them fat. For allowing them to work and acquire skills that will pay them for a lifetime.

And you don't see a lot of fat kids delivering newspapers on bikes, de-tassling corn, walking beans, bailing hay and etc. You see them wolfing down mass quantities of everything and not gaining an ounce.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Personally I bet my life that the animal fats are the healthiest for us.
Animal fats are not all the same. Dairy fat may be better for you than lard, for example. Plus the whole Omega 3 vs Omega 6 thing. But yeah, vegetable fat isn't necessarily better than animal fat.
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Old 8th December 2018, 08:28 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Animal fats are not all the same. Dairy fat may be better for you than lard, for example. Plus the whole Omega 3 vs Omega 6 thing. But yeah, vegetable fat isn't necessarily better than animal fat.
The common "hydrogenated vegetable oil" is poison due to it's high trans fat content. The Euro has required none for a few years, USA will require none in 2020. "Zero Grams" could be 5%, they round down 1/2 gram per 10 gram serving to "zero grams".

I'm not sure of the Omega 3/6 ratio of animal fats, but I haven't seen an actual study showing any actual benefit in humans. Only "in vitro" or rat studies so far.

And lard is the best source of Mono-unsaturated fats at 40%. So lard is actually less saturated than HVO.
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Old 8th December 2018, 09:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Animal fats are not all the same. Dairy fat may be better for you than lard, for example. Plus the whole Omega 3 vs Omega 6 thing. But yeah, vegetable fat isn't necessarily better than animal fat.
Here are a couple of good ones for you:

Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence.



Dairy and Cardiovascular Disease: A Review of Recent Observational Research

Quote:
To date, however, the body of literature gives plausibility to the hypothesis that full-fat dairy foods, including milk, cheese and yogurt, do not contribute to cardiovascular disease risk, and indeed may be inversely associated with it.

Saturated vs unsaturated?

Association of dietary, circulating, and supplement fatty acids with coronary risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis.

Quote:
CONCLUSION:
Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats.
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Old 8th December 2018, 07:33 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
However, can we continue to ignore the source of the calories, as these diseases continue to rise in spite of the diet and exercise guidelines
being recommended by the mainstream medical community for the last 50 or so years?
How many people actually follow the recommended dietary and exercise guidelines?

There is no meaningful oversight of a population that consumes on its own accord.
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