ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brilliant Light Power , free energy , Randell Mills

Closed Thread
Old 26th November 2018, 01:33 PM   #2521
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,616
Thumbs down Believes in a second obvious lie in an already lying Thermacore document

Originally Posted by markie View Post
Yes it was prepared for the Air Force who was funding them.
That means that it was not an internal company report as you stated !
It is for public consumption. It is not a classified Air Force report. Anyone who was interested could ask the appropriate government department for a copy. And where do you think you got that document from - a public web site !

Originally Posted by markie View Post
Yes About the 55eV peak, yes I agree the centre is more about 57 eV.
So you agree that Thermacore arte lying about a 55 eV peak because you finally looked at their figure and saw that the peak is not at 55 eV?

22 November 2018 markie: Emphasizes Thermacore at least incompetence by not making the ESCA report available.
22 November 2018 markie: Cannot understand the LeHigh graph that Thermacore lied about.

Originally Posted by markie View Post
But I take Thermacore's statement at face value that Lehigh university couldn't pin the energy hump to anything conventional.
27 November 2018 markie: Believes in a second obvious lie in an already lying Thermacore document.
Thermacore wrote at least 1 repeated lie in their reports about the "energy bump" (it is a spectral peak at ~57 eV). They lied to the Air Force! There is no evidence that LeHigh university did anything except standard lab analysis of supplied samples. Neither of the reports has the ESCA report.

Use your commonsense, markie. If Al Miller had written in his ESCA report that he could not attribute that 57 eV peak to anything conventional then why did Thermacore omit that in their first report? Why is that vital ESCA report not even a reference in the first report? Why did Thermacore not quote Al Miller in their second report? Did they magically discover that the ESCA report said that before the second report was written?

Ditto for the "exhaustive investigations" statement. The ESCA report was available for the 1993 report. Thermacore did not list those "investigations". Thermacore did not quote those "investigations" from the ESCA report. And what is the title of the ESCA report? It is "ESCA report" ! A rational person would conclude that a report on ESCA results would be the spectra with the known elements labeled. There would be a giant peak from Ni because that is what the sample are primarily made of. There would be lesser peaks from other known, trace elements.

Al Miller was a competent scientist. He should not be deluded enough to believe in hydrinos. He could tell a real 57 eV peak from a 55 eV peak. Thus, Thermacore insult him and lie by suggesting that he attributed an imaginary 55 eV peak to hydrinos ("Lehigh (Dr. A. Miller) has also seen these peaks on electrodes removed from Mills' electrolytic cells and has no other explanation for them other than being caused by the presence of hydrinos.").

Last edited by Reality Check; 26th November 2018 at 02:08 PM.
Reality Check is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 03:39 PM   #2522
Bindamel
Graduate Poster
 
Bindamel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,509
Apologies if this has been previously covered, but I haven't seen it in following this thread for a while. Also, I'm starting with a brief personal story.

So, from 1993 to 1998 I worked for a small business whose (unspoken) mission was to be continually funded by the government through a little program called Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR). The stated purpose of the SBIR program is to provide the equivalent of venture capital to small businesses to investigate new technologies (Phase I), develop a practical application (Phase II), and commercialize the technology (Phase III). Phase I contracts were six months with a $150,000 budget, and Phase II contracts were 2 year, $1 million budget contracts. I never saw a Phase III contract while I was there, which was intentional on the part of the company. Our Principal Investigators (PIs) were churning out Phase I proposals as fast as they could; when a Phase I was awarded, the primary role of that PI was writing a report that would get a Phase II award. In phase II, the primary role of that PI was to go back to writing Phase I reports, because our company wasn't actually looking to commercialize anything.

(This is probably an overly cynical, slightly exaggerated view, but it's not entirely inaccurate either. A lot of the younger, less jaded PIs wanted to see their ideas go to commercialization, and pushed pretty hard to make things work. They also put in more hours, because any time spent actually working on Phase II was time not getting a new Phase I. By the same token, we used to pick apart other companies' Phase I reports to figure out what they were hiding in their attempts to get to Phase II.)

So, we were essentially an SBIR "factory". Our purpose was to convince government agencies to give us money to do research. Guess why this story is relevant.

A lot is being said about the incompetence of Thermacore. I don't think they were incompetent, I think they were trying to get a Phase II award. You'll note that the second linked report from Reality Check is an SBIR Phase I final report. It's all rainbows and butterflies not because they believed in it, but because they might get $1,000,000 to play with for a couple years.

Thermacore appears to be an SBIR factory company. They were awarded 95 Phase I and 44 Phase II contracts over the course of 30+ years. (The company I worked for has almost 300/over 100 in the same time period; we were prolific.)
Bindamel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 03:45 PM   #2523
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by Bindamel View Post
Apologies if this has been previously covered, but I haven't seen it in following this thread for a while. Also, I'm starting with a brief personal story.



So, from 1993 to 1998 I worked for a small business whose (unspoken) mission was to be continually funded by the government through a little program called Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR). The stated purpose of the SBIR program is to provide the equivalent of venture capital to small businesses to investigate new technologies (Phase I), develop a practical application (Phase II), and commercialize the technology (Phase III). Phase I contracts were six months with a $150,000 budget, and Phase II contracts were 2 year, $1 million budget contracts. I never saw a Phase III contract while I was there, which was intentional on the part of the company. Our Principal Investigators (PIs) were churning out Phase I proposals as fast as they could; when a Phase I was awarded, the primary role of that PI was writing a report that would get a Phase II award. In phase II, the primary role of that PI was to go back to writing Phase I reports, because our company wasn't actually looking to commercialize anything.



(This is probably an overly cynical, slightly exaggerated view, but it's not entirely inaccurate either. A lot of the younger, less jaded PIs wanted to see their ideas go to commercialization, and pushed pretty hard to make things work. They also put in more hours, because any time spent actually working on Phase II was time not getting a new Phase I. By the same token, we used to pick apart other companies' Phase I reports to figure out what they were hiding in their attempts to get to Phase II.)



So, we were essentially an SBIR "factory". Our purpose was to convince government agencies to give us money to do research. Guess why this story is relevant.



A lot is being said about the incompetence of Thermacore. I don't think they were incompetent, I think they were trying to get a Phase II award. You'll note that the second linked report from Reality Check is an SBIR Phase I final report. It's all rainbows and butterflies not because they believed in it, but because they might get $1,000,000 to play with for a couple years.



Thermacore appears to be an SBIR factory company. They were awarded 95 Phase I and 44 Phase II contracts over the course of 30+ years. (The company I worked for has almost 300/over 100 in the same time period; we were prolific.)


Damn.

My tax dollars went to pay for a Mills inspired smokescreen.

Damn.
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 03:53 PM   #2524
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,227
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
It's interesting to read the original prediction made back in January 2017 in the post that kicked off the first thread in this series:


So that would be a January 2018 date for hitting the market, and January 2019 for mass production ramping up rapidly.

It's almost December 2018, and once again Mills has ... nothing. Not even prototype.

Plus Áa change, plus c'est la mÍme chose.
Well, michaelsuede hasn't posted here in a long time. Last that was said in this thread, he's not paid up on his bet, either.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 03:59 PM   #2525
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,227
I don't know enough about Java or Mills' theory, but someone has programmed a couple of equations in Java, in order to prove that at least one aspect of it is accurate. Is this the bit where he can accurately predict something about the first 20 or so elements, but which he could actually have reverse-engineered by working from the results to create equations that work? And which don't actually work beyond those 20?

I'm hoping someone who's more familiar with either or both can chime in.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 07:39 PM   #2526
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,616
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't know enough about Java or Mills' theory, but someone has programmed a couple of equations in Java, in order to prove that at least one aspect of it is accurate..
Mills' deluded book has many pages of "calculated" ionization energies. I doubt whether a Java implementation of his crank equations will report anything different.

It is a waste of time to go through Mills book more than it has already been analyzed. But of course Mills is at least ignorant and probably lying.
Page 314, Table 10.1 Ionization Energies fro some three-electron atoms. He gets every ionization energy wrong ! For example, 5.40390 (experiment value) is not 5.39172 (his value) for Li. Thesis repeated up to twenty electron atoms.

This is either a blatant lie of calculating correct ionization energies or deep ignorance about basic science by not including uncertainties so that people can see if the values overlap.

Last edited by Reality Check; 26th November 2018 at 07:43 PM.
Reality Check is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 07:47 PM   #2527
jsfisher
ETcorngods survivor
Moderator
 
jsfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22,345
Originally Posted by Bindamel View Post
Thermacore appears to be an SBIR factory company. They were awarded 95 Phase I and 44 Phase II contracts over the course of 30+ years. (The company I worked for has almost 300/over 100 in the same time period; we were prolific.)
Wow! So, not incompetent, but deliberate. $75,000 for that not incompetent, but deliberate report.
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group.

"He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost
jsfisher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 09:15 PM   #2528
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Bindamel View Post
Apologies if this has been previously covered, but I haven't seen it in following this thread for a while. Also, I'm starting with a brief personal story.

So, from 1993 to 1998 I worked for a small business whose (unspoken) mission was to be continually funded by the government through a little program called Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR). The stated purpose of the SBIR program is to provide the equivalent of venture capital to small businesses to investigate new technologies (Phase I), develop a practical application (Phase II), and commercialize the technology (Phase III). Phase I contracts were six months with a $150,000 budget, and Phase II contracts were 2 year, $1 million budget contracts. I never saw a Phase III contract while I was there, which was intentional on the part of the company. Our Principal Investigators (PIs) were churning out Phase I proposals as fast as they could; when a Phase I was awarded, the primary role of that PI was writing a report that would get a Phase II award. In phase II, the primary role of that PI was to go back to writing Phase I reports, because our company wasn't actually looking to commercialize anything.

(This is probably an overly cynical, slightly exaggerated view, but it's not entirely inaccurate either. A lot of the younger, less jaded PIs wanted to see their ideas go to commercialization, and pushed pretty hard to make things work. They also put in more hours, because any time spent actually working on Phase II was time not getting a new Phase I. By the same token, we used to pick apart other companies' Phase I reports to figure out what they were hiding in their attempts to get to Phase II.)

So, we were essentially an SBIR "factory". Our purpose was to convince government agencies to give us money to do research. Guess why this story is relevant.

A lot is being said about the incompetence of Thermacore. I don't think they were incompetent, I think they were trying to get a Phase II award. You'll note that the second linked report from Reality Check is an SBIR Phase I final report. It's all rainbows and butterflies not because they believed in it, but because they might get $1,000,000 to play with for a couple years.

Thermacore appears to be an SBIR factory company. They were awarded 95 Phase I and 44 Phase II contracts over the course of 30+ years. (The company I worked for has almost 300/over 100 in the same time period; we were prolific.)

Appreciate you sharing. Yes you are rather cynical, and you may project too much, but it is good knowing nonetheless.

Your company was not actually looking to commercialize anything? Wow. So much for the American way. I feel badly for the fresh faced PIs.

Thermacore's long report was not all rainbows and butterflies. Lots of their test configurations did not produce excess heat, and they were at a loss to explain the huge variation of results with different parameters. Also, I noted that they repeated in the report they were seeking future *internal* funding to further explore. Maybe they were just being coy and really hoping for the big phase 2 funding? Perhaps. But to say they didn't believe their results is rather over the top cynical. Still, thanks for sharing.

PS You implied that companies had access to the Phase 1 reports of other companies. Give that, Thermacore's Phase 1 report would have been essentially semi public. Wouldn't have figured that. Good to know.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 09:31 PM   #2529
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That means that it was not an internal company report as you stated !
It is for public consumption. It is not a classified Air Force report. Anyone who was interested could ask the appropriate government department for a copy. And where do you think you got that document from - a public web site !


So you agree that Thermacore arte lying about a 55 eV peak because you finally looked at their figure and saw that the peak is not at 55 eV?

22 November 2018 markie: Emphasizes Thermacore at least incompetence by not making the ESCA report available.
22 November 2018 markie: Cannot understand the LeHigh graph that Thermacore lied about.


27 November 2018 markie: Believes in a second obvious lie in an already lying Thermacore document.
Thermacore wrote at least 1 repeated lie in their reports about the "energy bump" (it is a spectral peak at ~57 eV). They lied to the Air Force! There is no evidence that LeHigh university did anything except standard lab analysis of supplied samples. Neither of the reports has the ESCA report.

Use your commonsense, markie. If Al Miller had written in his ESCA report that he could not attribute that 57 eV peak to anything conventional then why did Thermacore omit that in their first report? Why is that vital ESCA report not even a reference in the first report? Why did Thermacore not quote Al Miller in their second report? Did they magically discover that the ESCA report said that before the second report was written?

Ditto for the "exhaustive investigations" statement. The ESCA report was available for the 1993 report. Thermacore did not list those "investigations". Thermacore did not quote those "investigations" from the ESCA report. And what is the title of the ESCA report? It is "ESCA report" ! A rational person would conclude that a report on ESCA results would be the spectra with the known elements labeled. There would be a giant peak from Ni because that is what the sample are primarily made of. There would be lesser peaks from other known, trace elements.

Al Miller was a competent scientist. He should not be deluded enough to believe in hydrinos. He could tell a real 57 eV peak from a 55 eV peak. Thus, Thermacore insult him and lie by suggesting that he attributed an imaginary 55 eV peak to hydrinos ("Lehigh (Dr. A. Miller) has also seen these peaks on electrodes removed from Mills' electrolytic cells and has no other explanation for them other than being caused by the presence of hydrinos.").
Calling it a 'peak' is really a misnomer in the first place. Had a profile more like a speed bump over a range of at least 6 eV. Also, it wasn't lost on me that 'peak' the graph from Lehigh's Dr. Miller was labeled "Hydrino Peak" in quotation marks. Meaning, so called hydrino peak. I certainly wouldn't argue whether Miller was open to hydrino theory or not, but it does seem he wanted to get to the bottom of that bump in the bond energy reading. That he could not attribute that bump to anything he knew should be, at least, intriguing.

No worries though, lots of other more definitive spectroscopic results of hydrino identification would follow over subsequent years.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 09:31 PM   #2530
jsfisher
ETcorngods survivor
Moderator
 
jsfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22,345
Originally Posted by markie View Post
Thermacore's long report was not all rainbows and butterflies. Lots of their test configurations did not produce excess heat, and they were at a loss to explain the huge variation of results with different parameters. Also, I noted that they repeated in the report they were seeking future *internal* funding to further explore. Maybe they were just being coy and really hoping for the big phase 2 funding? Perhaps. But to say they didn't believe their results is rather over the top cynical. Still, thanks for sharing.
Markie, guess what word appears nowhere in the SBIR report. Has lying become some common for you that you don't even bother with any sort of fact check to hide your bare assertions behind?

Quote:
PS You implied that companies had access to the Phase 1 reports of other companies. Give that, Thermacore's Phase 1 report would have been essentially semi public. Wouldn't have figured that. Good to know.
Yeah, who would have figured that any research commissioned by the US federal government would be destined for public domain status. (And, no, not semi-public.)
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group.

"He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost
jsfisher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 09:38 PM   #2531
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Damn.

My tax dollars went to pay for a Mills inspired smokescreen.

Damn.
LOL.

To help you feel better, Mills himself AFAIK has never received a dime of government funding.

To help you feel worse, Marchese from Rowan University did receive Phase 1 funding from NASA around 2002 or thereabouts. He was investigating the possibility of hydrino powered spacecraft propulsion.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 09:46 PM   #2532
jsfisher
ETcorngods survivor
Moderator
 
jsfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22,345
Originally Posted by markie View Post
Calling it a 'peak' is really a misnomer in the first place.
Then why did you insist, repeatedly, about it being a peak and at 55eV?

Quote:
...
Also, it wasn't lost on me that 'peak' the graph from Lehigh's Dr. Miller was labeled "Hydrino Peak" in quotation marks.
Oh! nice spin attempt. Perhaps you should mention that the labeling was by Thermacore, not by Al Miller...or would that be too honest for you?

Quote:
Meaning, so called hydrino peak. I certainly wouldn't argue whether Miller was open to hydrino theory or not, but it does seem he wanted to get to the bottom of that bump in the bond energy reading. That he could not attribute that bump to anything he knew should be, at least, intriguing.
Lying for Jesus are we?
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group.

"He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost
jsfisher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 09:49 PM   #2533
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't know enough about Java or Mills' theory, but someone has programmed a couple of equations in Java, in order to prove that at least one aspect of it is accurate. Is this the bit where he can accurately predict something about the first 20 or so elements, but which he could actually have reverse-engineered by working from the results to create equations that work? And which don't actually work beyond those 20?

I'm hoping someone who's more familiar with either or both can chime in.
That Java program will work for atoms of any nuclear Z value with 1 or 2 electrons. So take Gold with 79 protons. Imagine that it is almost entirely ionized, with 77 electrons gone and only 2 remaining. The program will output the ionization energies for those last two electrons. Although, I doubt they have even been experimentally determined.

It is probably just a matter of time before the author will eventually code for the ionization energies of 3, 4, 5, etc electron atoms as well, using Mills' formulae.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 10:02 PM   #2534
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Mills' deluded book has many pages of "calculated" ionization energies. I doubt whether a Java implementation of his crank equations will report anything different.

It is a waste of time to go through Mills book more than it has already been analyzed. But of course Mills is at least ignorant and probably lying.
Page 314, Table 10.1 Ionization Energies fro some three-electron atoms. He gets every ionization energy wrong ! For example, 5.40390 (experiment value) is not 5.39172 (his value) for Li. Thesis repeated up to twenty electron atoms.

This is either a blatant lie of calculating correct ionization energies or deep ignorance about basic science by not including uncertainties so that people can see if the values overlap.
The calculated ionization energies are close enough to be very impressive, considering Mills doesn't take into account higher order effects.

Looking at the references for chapter 10, the two books consulted for the often semi empirical ionization energies are from 1970 and 1977. Perhaps there are more recent and accurate values?

In any event Mills' results represent an immense improvement over what QM can muster.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 10:29 PM   #2535
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Markie, guess what word appears nowhere in the SBIR report. Has lying become some common for you that you don't even bother with any sort of fact check to hide your bare assertions behind?
Going by memory. OK they weren't 'seeking' internal funding, they were operating on internal funding to further investigate. No biggie.


Quote:
Yeah, who would have figured that any research commissioned by the US federal government would be destined for public domain status. (And, no, not semi-public.)
Well I would have figured that the specifics of a company's research would be private since it could contain valuable IP. It should be private! Otherwise unethical companies like Bindamel's will be stealing your tax dollars, as they were, and only pretending to work towards a commercial product on government funds, knowing full well that competitors were monitoring them. Meanwhile, all their truly promising projects would be privately funded and kept from government and public eyes.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 10:40 PM   #2536
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Then why did you insist, repeatedly, about it being a peak and at 55eV?
I insisted it should be called a peak rather than something else? Where? Reality check : It was called the 55eV peak because that's what the paper called it.

Quote:
Oh! nice spin attempt. Perhaps you should mention that the labeling was by Thermacore, not by Al Miller...or would that be too honest for you?
The data was Miller's and so also presumably the graph and the labelling. Why you think otherwise is interesting.

Quote:
Lying for Jesus are we?
If you want to get religious I'm thinking HC would do a good job dissuading you.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 06:29 AM   #2537
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by markie View Post
LOL.



To help you feel better, Mills himself AFAIK has never received a dime of government funding.



To help you feel worse, Marchese from Rowan University did receive Phase 1 funding from NASA around 2002 or thereabouts. He was investigating the possibility of hydrino powered spacecraft propulsion.


Thatís it. Iím contributing to the ďHydrino and the BibleĒ book some Creationists I know are working on. Last I heard the project was stalled on some of the math for claiming Hydrinos explain why the sunís corona is hotter than the core. Having read some of Randyís bloated valise, Iím confident I have more than sufficient math skills to produce material of comparable quality.
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 06:38 AM   #2538
Bindamel
Graduate Poster
 
Bindamel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by markie View Post
Well I would have figured that the specifics of a company's research would be private since it could contain valuable IP. It should be private!
Generally speaking, he who pays the bill, gets the product. The company I work for now has projects funded by major private companies. Guess who gets the results of those efforts?

Quote:
Otherwise unethical companies like Bindamel's will be stealing your tax dollars, as they were, and only pretending to work towards a commercial product on government funds, knowing full well that competitors were monitoring them. Meanwhile, all their truly promising projects would be privately funded and kept from government and public eyes.
I like the way you turned the phrase so that it was my company. We actually referred to it as "workfare" at our level. I was a staff engineer, running experiments and analyzing data for the PIs, who were all PhD level scientists.

There are a lot of companies that use the SBIR program for good instead of evil, and the rules tightened up quite a bit even while I was working there, so I wouldn't get too excited. Thermacore may have truly been trying to succeed commercially, but even if they were...


...looking through Thermacore's projects over that time period, it looks like they were mostly interested in high performance materials, almost as if the Mills thing was a side job.
Bindamel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 08:37 AM   #2539
jsfisher
ETcorngods survivor
Moderator
 
jsfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22,345
Originally Posted by markie View Post
I insisted it should be called a peak rather than something else? Where?
You might want to read what I actually wrote.

Quote:
...
The data was Miller's and so also presumably the graph and the labelling. Why you think otherwise is interesting.
It is obvious from the typography that you are wrong. Also, Miller should not have known which sample was which nor what experimental conditions the samples had endured.

Thermacore labelled the graph for publication with "Hydrino peak", "Virgin tubing", and "K2CO3".

Why you ignore the obvious in favor of wishful thinking and nonsensical excuses is interesting.
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group.

"He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost
jsfisher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 08:45 AM   #2540
jsfisher
ETcorngods survivor
Moderator
 
jsfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22,345
Originally Posted by markie View Post
Going by memory. OK they weren't 'seeking' internal funding, they were operating on internal funding to further investigate. No biggie.
Yes, it was a biggie. You were trying to promote your fairy tale it was an internal document by fabricating an internal purpose for it, to seek internal funding.

Your original statement was contrary to fact. Your attempt to backpedal was contrary to fact.
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group.

"He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost
jsfisher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:27 AM   #2541
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
You might want to read what I actually wrote.



It is obvious from the typography that you are wrong. Also, Miller should not have known which sample was which nor what experimental conditions the samples had endured.

Thermacore labelled the graph for publication with "Hydrino peak", "Virgin tubing", and "K2CO3".

Why you ignore the obvious in favor of wishful thinking and nonsensical excuses is interesting.

Now that you pointed out the typography aspect, and I compare that typography with other drawings made by Thermacore, I'm compelled to agree with you that it was Thermacore who put ["Hydrino peak"], [Virgin Tubing] and [K2CO3 diffusion cell tubing] labelling on the graph. Imagine that. But again, it's not a terribly big deal.

About the point that Al Miller should not have known what conditions the tubing was subjected to, I would point out that knowing such would not bias the measurements themselves, only the interpretation of such. Miller probably would want to know exactly what the tubing endured so he could more intelligently interpret the results.

For fun, here is a video of him discussing XPS at Lehigh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0aZ1Nq66b0
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:32 AM   #2542
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Yes, it was a biggie. You were trying to promote your fairy tale it was an internal document by fabricating an internal purpose for it, to seek internal funding.

Your original statement was contrary to fact. Your attempt to backpedal was contrary to fact.
Of course there would be an internal purpose for the report. Why would Thermacore want to fund further in-house research on potential hydrino energy if there was no basis to do so? The report would provide a basis.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 10:11 AM   #2543
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by markie View Post
Of course there would be an internal purpose for the report. Why would Thermacore want to fund further in-house research on potential hydrino energy if there was no basis to do so? The report would provide a basis.


Dude. Give it up. You were caught lying. Move on.
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 10:15 AM   #2544
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,884
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Thatís it. Iím contributing to the ďHydrino and the BibleĒ book some Creationists I know are working on. Last I heard the project was stalled on some of the math for claiming Hydrinos explain why the sunís corona is hotter than the core. Having read some of Randyís bloated valise, Iím confident I have more than sufficient math skills to produce material of comparable quality.
To make sure its really, really 'Sciency' include some English language Gematria into the mix.

https://www.gematrix.org/gematria.php#english_gematria

It'll really spice it up and make real sure it'll get 'wows'.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 10:17 AM   #2545
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,884
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Dude. Give it up. You were caught lying. Move on.
Isn't that so common as to no longer require a comment? ----- I mean he's trying to justify a 30 year old scam based on fake science - so...................... 'he gonna be tellin' whoppers on a regular basis'.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 10:41 AM   #2546
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,227
Originally Posted by markie View Post
The calculated ionization energies are close enough to be very impressive, considering Mills doesn't take into account higher order effects.
If these are supposed to be the equations that accurately describe reality and are meant to completely overturn every advancement in physics of the last 100 years, then I don't think "close enough" is impressive.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 11:30 AM   #2547
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,406
From 1999, Ricerca is just a contract lab,but still we've seen nothing since from them. They are still around as a "for hire" lab.

Quote:
Ricerca Inc.'s lab east of Cleveland was similarly flummoxed by what it found when studying BlackLight Power's materials. "They were inorganic compounds that have organic properties. That is unusual," says Dr. Yong-Xi Li, manager of Ricerca's advanced mass spectrometry lab. "We totally don't know what's going on. The reason is that I've never seen before these kinds of properties in all my career. Probably we have to do more work."
Never seen it in all his career, and then nothing...

Also from 1999, and again we have no further info on it.

Mills has this sort of MO, where there are articles with supposedly impressive names and info, and Mills always "might" or "may" do this or that, but then nothing ever follows.

Quote:
BlackLight Power and researchers at the weapons division of the Naval Air Warfare Center at China Lake, California, confirm that they are heading toward a research and development pact that would allow the navy to produce energy and materials from hydrinos and to develop applications of the new compounds. A spokeswoman for the Indian Head Division of the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Maryland says in an e-mail letter that after a meeting with Mills "there was considerable interest in the reported properties of the new hydrogen-containing compounds, and in obtaining samples for independent analysis and evaluation."

BlackLight Power's newest board member is retired vice admiral Michael P. Kalleres, who commanded the U.S. fleet in the Atlantic during the Gulf War and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Striking Fleet. He's also a consultant for the Defense Science Board and the Naval Studies Board of the National Academy of Science.

"I feel very confident in what [Mills] has created," Kalleres says. He adds that he has no investment in BlackLight Power and takes no salary from the company, although he anticipates an option to invest later. After observing the company's practices for years, he believes that it's produced things of which the military should make use.

Ships with hydrino material cladding would likely be stealthy and rustproof, Kalleres says. Eliminating rust could radically reduce crews on some ships, savings millions of dollars.
http://pages.suddenlink.net/anomalou...s/news556.html
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

Last edited by LTC8K6; 27th November 2018 at 11:35 AM.
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 11:35 AM   #2548
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,406
Quote:
In the next year, Mills promises, the revolution will be "hydrinoized."

In one of BlackLight Power's cavernous laboratories sits the prototype energy-and chemical-producing cell that is the heart of Mills's ambitions. Mills explains that in this contraption, resembling a souped-up home furnace, water is electrically then catalytically broken down into atoms of oxygen and hydrogen. Potassium atoms are introduced as a gas into the very low-pressure hydrogen gas waiting inside the cell. Under specific conditions, the potassium acts as a catalyst to collapse hydrogen's electron orbit. The energy once used to maintain the higher orbit is released as ultra-violet light, Mills says.

The heat from that process can build pressure to turn a turbine for a generator or an engine, BlackLight Power notes in a marketing plan. The smaller hydrogen atoms, called "hydrinos," remaining in the cell can then react with other elements placed there to form novel compounds with amazing properties, Mills claims. "This will change how most everyday things in the 21st century are made and used," he says. For example:

EHydrinos combined with inorganic elements produce conductive, magnetic plastics that would revolutionize circuitry and aerospace engineering, and shrink and speed up semiconductors.

EHydrinos combined with highly oxygenated matter would form the basis of batteries the size of a briefcase to drive your car 1000 miles at highway speeds on a single charge, without gasoline.

EOne type of hydrino combined with an acid would produce incredibly powerful explosives or rocket propellants.

EHydrino and metal compounds make for super-strong coatings, some of which could make ships rustproof, dramatically reducing crew complements.

There are "millions and millions of possible combinations" in the commercial world, Mills says, revealing himself as a practical, earthy businessman.
All of these claims are just made up, imo.
It's been 20 years since they were spoken.
No such device or compounds have ever been documented by anyone other than Mills or people connected to Mills.

There was no such equipment, no such compounds, etc.

Just Mills playing a sympathetic media to attract spending money.

http://pages.suddenlink.net/anomalou...s/news556.html
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 02:50 PM   #2549
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If these are supposed to be the equations that accurately describe reality and are meant to completely overturn every advancement in physics of the last 100 years, then I don't think "close enough" is impressive.

Compared to what QM can do for ionization energies it is very impressive. Even so, it is just a necessarily busy side branch of the grander goal Mills accomplishes in his book. This shows the unification of the equations of Newton and Maxwell and SG and GR and Planck and deBroglie in the context of particle production. This comes together in the Gravity chapter, 32.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 03:21 PM   #2550
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,616
Thumbs down A delusion that Al Miller added a "Hydrino Peak" label to Thermacore's figure

Originally Posted by markie View Post
Calling it a 'peak' is really a misnomer in the first place....
Thanks, we can add that as another Thermacore lie, markie!
A small Thermacore lie of a "peak" when it is more of a bump. But then we get :
28 November 2018 markie: A delusion or insult that Al Miller added a "Hydrino Peak" label to Thermacore's figure.

You really do not understand how labs work. People send samples to them. The lab does the analysis. They may just return raw data. They usually take the raw data and say what the existing, tested science states the results show. A lab doing ESCA analysis will return raw data or data with labels marking the known spectra of elements. For example, send DNA to a lab and they can return an analysis with the sources of the DNA but they will not label unknown sequences as coming from Bigfoot or aliens! Al Miller's lab would not do a similar act for samples of tubing.

We do not have Al Miller's report. Al Miller did standard lab analysis and would have labelled the results with documented peaks for known elements. Al Miller is an educated scientist who would not be deluded enough to believe in fairy tales like hydrinos. Thermacore were the gullible cold fusion/hydrino believers who knew about and fell for Mills hydrino delusions. Thus it was Thermacore who added the label to the bump.

22 November 2018 markie: Emphasizes Thermacore at least incompetence by not making the ESCA report available.
22 November 2018 markie: Cannot Could not understand the LeHigh graph that Thermacore lied about.
27 November 2018 markie: Believes in a second obvious lie in an already lying Thermacore document.

Last edited by Reality Check; 27th November 2018 at 03:32 PM.
Reality Check is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 03:36 PM   #2551
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,616
Thumbs down A "Compared to what QM can do for ionization energies" delusion

Originally Posted by markie View Post
Compared to what QM can do for ionization energies it is very impressive.
28 November 2018 markie: A "Compared to what QM can do for ionization energies" delusion.
Mills' deluded book has tables where he gets every ionization energy he calculates wrong !
You have no idea what QM gets for ionization energies.
Reality Check is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 04:45 AM   #2552
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,227
Originally Posted by markie View Post
Compared to what QM can do for ionization energies it is very impressive.
If you're attempting to replace every advancement in physics over the last century then "eh, it's vaguely right" isn't good enough.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 06:46 AM   #2553
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,911
If you replace the confusing "heliocentric solar system moving in elliptical orbits under gravitational influence" theory with my simple model of rotating transparent spheres surrounding a stationary earth, you can predict the motions of the sun and planets with an impressive 96% accuracy.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:32 AM   #2554
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
28 November 2018 markie: A "Compared to what QM can do for ionization energies" delusion.
Mills' deluded book has tables where he gets every ionization energy he calculates wrong !
You have no idea what QM gets for ionization energies.

Sure I do, and I know it uses fudge factors like electron shielding in order to better match experimental values. Mills doesn't use fudge factors and his solutions are closed form.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:44 AM   #2555
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If you're attempting to replace every advancement in physics over the last century then "eh, it's vaguely right" isn't good enough.
Why the need to greatly exaggerate when you say "replace every advancement"?
Didn't I say yesterday that Mills uses unifies the great contributions in physics from the last several hundred years? Yeah, he does modify QM and GR. The advancements recently have been technological, not theoretical. Theory painted itself into a very 'dark' corner.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:55 AM   #2556
markie
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,643
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
If you replace the confusing "heliocentric solar system moving in elliptical orbits under gravitational influence" theory with my simple model of rotating transparent spheres surrounding a stationary earth, you can predict the motions of the sun and planets with an impressive 96% accuracy.

You have it backwards. QM is the theory with free parameters, fudge factors, coming out the whazoo. Like epicycles, wheels upon wheels. Like epicycles it does work pretty well for computation. But it is based on unphysical principles.
Along comes gravitational theory and the equations of motion and things are much simpler. Sometimes not as accurate when higher order effects are not accounted for, but still, a vast improvement from what was before.
markie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 10:20 AM   #2557
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,634
Originally Posted by markie View Post
You have it backwards. QM is the theory with free parameters, fudge factors, coming out the whazoo. Like epicycles, wheels upon wheels. Like epicycles it does work pretty well for computation. But it is based on unphysical principles.
Along comes gravitational theory and the equations of motion and things are much simpler. Sometimes not as accurate when higher order effects are not accounted for, but still, a vast improvement from what was before.
And your actual sources and citations for this?
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 11:44 AM   #2558
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,589
Originally Posted by markie View Post
You have it backwards. QM is the theory with free parameters, fudge factors, coming out the whazoo. Like epicycles, wheels upon wheels. Like epicycles it does work pretty well for computation. But it is based on unphysical principles.
Along comes gravitational theory and the equations of motion and things are much simpler. Sometimes not as accurate when higher order effects are not accounted for, but still, a vast improvement from what was before.
Sisyphus had it easy.

We've been over this Mills nonsense before. More than once. Why do we have to go over (and over and over) it yet again?

The tl;dr version: Mills' "theory" is riddled with nonsense, internal inconsistencies, (and more), and is useless for doing anything worthwhile in atomic physics or chemistry.
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 11:59 AM   #2559
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,589
Originally Posted by markie View Post
Good lord no. February 2019 was my prediction (made grudgingly) for a date that BLP would have a prototype that was provably (to a reasonable skeptic) producing useful amounts of power. Going from a working prototype to a product used in the industrial sector will take at least a few more years. A product for residential use at least a few years after that.
Thanks.

From 26 Feb, 2017:

Originally Posted by markie
If there no satisfactorily proven, working prototype in 48 months, I promise to come back and eat humble pie before you, without a fork. My Google Calendar for Friday, February 26th 2021 now has an entry.
Quote:

<snip>

I can see hydrogen, a fixed trace amount of oxygen, gallium or silver, and something like tungsten, but that's about it. Commercial units will be run on H2 gas, which can be derived from water or alkanes.

Yes of course it's near impossible to predict some outcomes, like what crud if any may build up in the reactor over time from trace contaminants. But as far as I know any waste product must escape out via diffusion through the reactor wall. The only thing doing that will be dihydrino gas and perhaps some hydrogen gas.
Here's a curious fact: AFAICT, in none of Mills' previous announcements of imminent commercial production was there mention of the need for health or environmental impact studies.

Did no one on his (supposed) high-powered board(s) ever raise this? Did none of his lawyers sit him down and tell him that potential investors might be interested to know what his plans were on this?

I vaguely recall reading that Mills thinks (thought?) that some of his magical hydrino compounds would cure cancer. Little known fact: most chemotherapeutic agents are potent poisons, and many are in fact quite carcinogenic (the known benefit of killing cancer cells outweighs the small extra likelihood of the development of new cancers). Does Mills' Magic Cells produce any such chemicals, even in minute amounts? No one knows.

Those "trace contaminants" in "the crud" can easily escape, during routine maintenance for example, or inadvertent breach of the reactor vessel (very likely if cars, say, get powered by Mills' Magic Cells), or improper disposal at the "end of useful life" (there are a great many examples of this sort of thing happening in the past; PCBs for example).
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 12:46 PM   #2560
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,406
If Mills were making a new high efficiency conventional 100Kw genset, with a basically conventional engine and conventional generator, just with some enhancements of his own for efficiency, it would still take a long time to get it through the approvals process to be able to sell it or lease it. It could easily take 2 years to get it approved, even though it's basically a conventional genset.

Yet we still have no mention of getting approval for this totally new "hotter than the sun" device.

Since this would be a totally new device, there wouldn't even be a standard test and report plan to go by. They would need to come up with a new one, which would add even more time. They wouldn't even know how to test it. They would also need to research hydrinos.

With a new bicyle, or refrigerator, or car, they would have previous experience. They would know how to test and what to look for and what constitutes a failure.
With a Sun Cell, they'd be starting off with a blank page.

If Mills had a working device right now, it could easily be 5 years before the approval process was completed.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

Last edited by LTC8K6; 28th November 2018 at 12:49 PM.
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:32 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.