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Old 16th September 2020, 09:48 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A ton of "business". What's the profit to the bank of handling vast quantities of physical money on behalf of their customers, without charging for the service? Seems like it would be better business for the bank to either not offer such a service, or else charge market rates for it.
They can make it up in volume.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:56 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They can make it up in volume.
They do not have to eliminate the fees. Just shift them.
If there is a large enough market for "free deposits" (seems ridiculous even to write such a thing) they might be able to afford to be less competitive in some other area of usury to make up the difference- and still come out ahead.
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Old 16th September 2020, 10:00 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought the science was clear that simply letting things sit for an hour or so was more than sufficient. Only the most paranoid are actually bothering to sanitize their Amazon shipments upon delivery.
The science might be clear, but the acceptance and understanding may lag behind. Some lawyers and others might recommend an overabundance of liability caution as well
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Old 16th September 2020, 10:57 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A ton of "business". What's the profit to the bank of handling vast quantities of physical money on behalf of their customers, without charging for the service? Seems like it would be better business for the bank to either not offer such a service, or else charge market rates for it.
"Vast quantities" is a different thing.

Like I said, most banks here allow a reasonable number of deposits for a business without fees, plus they give you money for opening the account. They make money by getting your business for an associated credit card account and requiring a minimum balance on checking. For some types of businesses they will lose money but overall it is profitable.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:17 AM   #45
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Maybe people in these days might pay in paper bills, but not count out the exact smaller denominations and cents? to shorten the amount of time spent in the store?
- so the change goes out the door but not back in?

About 2 months ago my local small grocer complained about a chronic shortage of coins so I traded him $5 in coins I scrounged from my car for a fiver.

I didnt notice signs/stickers warning against possibly not having exact change til this past week, though they could have been there.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
"Vast quantities" is a different thing.

Like I said, most banks here allow a reasonable number of deposits for a business without fees, plus they give you money for opening the account. They make money by getting your business for an associated credit card account and requiring a minimum balance on checking. For some types of businesses they will lose money but overall it is profitable.
"Overall it is profitable" is begging the question. Remember your original proposition: "Seems like some bank could bring in tons of business by cutting or eliminating those fees."

Based on how banks are actually behaving, it seems like they've run the numbers and decided it isn't actually profitable.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:26 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
Yesterday, I went through the drive-in at a Popeye's chicken place. They only accepted cards. They said they had no cash for change.
That's been my experience as well.

The local Home Depot wasn't taking cash when I was there two weeks ago.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:52 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Overall it is profitable" is begging the question. Remember your original proposition: "Seems like some bank could bring in tons of business by cutting or eliminating those fees."

Based on how banks are actually behaving, it seems like they've run the numbers and decided it isn't actually profitable.

But that isn't how banks are behaving. I don't get charged for cash deposits, there is just a limit on how frequently I can make them.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:55 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Maybe people in these days might pay in paper bills, but not count out the exact smaller denominations and cents? to shorten the amount of time spent in the store?
- so the change goes out the door but not back in?

I'm sure that has always been the case. Not for me though, I consider self checkouts to be free Coinstar, as long as nobody is in line behind me.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
But that isn't how banks are behaving. I don't get charged for cash deposits, there is just a limit on how frequently I can make them.
They're rate-limiting you, which I consider functionally equivalent to charging you.

Have you tried looking for a bank that offers you unlimited cash deposits? In theory there should be one out there trying to attract your business with such an offer.

Also, this is not "overall, it's profitable". It's profitable in a very (literally) limited scenario.

Last edited by theprestige; 16th September 2020 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:13 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
But that isn't how banks are behaving. I don't get charged for cash deposits, there is just a limit on how frequently I can make them.
Do you often deposit more than $10,000 in cash? From what I remember that was a trigger point for some banks.

A very cursory google search shows that some banks only allow up to $5,000 per month without a fee.

I think the point is that even cash has associated costs in sufficient volume.
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Old 17th September 2020, 08:47 AM   #52
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This is weird. I deal with two banks and a credit union. None charges fees for deposits of any kind. None requires a minimum deposit. One charges a $3.50 fee for cash withdrawals if I am using their ATM to withdraw money from my other bank or the credit union, but, if the withdrawal is from the credit union, this money is refunded me by the credit union.

I have noted that for the first time in my life I can walk into a bank wearing a mask, hat, and sunglasses and not see people reaching for the silent alarms...

I usually withdraw a couple hundred dollars in $5.00 bills since these are handy and generally don't generate a lot of change. I have yet to have anyone tell me that they are not accepting cash.
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Old 18th September 2020, 10:32 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
I usually withdraw a couple hundred dollars in $5.00 bills since these are handy and generally don't generate a lot of change. I have yet to have anyone tell me that they are not accepting cash.
One of the local BBQ places, The Salt Lick, just started taking plastic when they were previously cash only. Not sure if the cash crunch had anything to do with it, but it's nice to know.
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Old 18th September 2020, 11:00 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by PPL View Post
The only time I regularly see people using cash now is for the same reason I do, when a coin is needed to unlock a supermarket trolley from the rack. In fact, since about April I've been using one of the same two coins I take from a dish near the door when I leave to go shopping.
Curious. Over here most of the supermarkets unlocked all the trollies in the early days. Even before that pretty much everyone has a suitably sized token on their keyring.
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Old 18th September 2020, 11:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
You still use coins and notes in American? How quaint.
They still use......cheques.
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Old 18th September 2020, 11:03 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So why don't they have a bigger float? All they have to do is withdraw the cash from the bank.
Because banks charge for cash handling, and usually want notification in advance.
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Old 18th September 2020, 11:07 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Banks here charge a 'counting fee' for large cash deposits. Unrelated hustle is a 'service fee' to cash a check if you are not an account holder at that bank.
Ah, cheques, how quaint. I got one earlier this year. From a USAian firm of course.
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Old 18th September 2020, 11:15 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Do you often deposit more than $10,000 in cash? From what I remember that was a trigger point for some banks.

A very cursory google search shows that some banks only allow up to $5,000 per month without a fee.

I think the point is that even cash has associated costs in sufficient volume.
The last time I had such dealings here the rules were:
Any transaction over 10k is reported. This is a legal requirement.
Any group of transactions over 10k in rolling 36 hour period is reported
Any cash transaction over 5k is reported.
Cash withdrawals over 2k should be arranged in advance or may be fulfilled at the manager's discretion. There's a charge for withdrawals of small notes or coin.
Cash withdrawals over 5k must be arranged in advance.
There was a transaction fee for cash deposits based on the amount/nature of the deposit. Unsorted coin was charged more whereas properly bagged coin was cheaper (this can be just weighed for verification). This fee could be waived at the manager's discretion, up to certain amounts.
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Old 18th September 2020, 11:33 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
They still use......cheques.
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Not me! I use checks!

Regarding the coin shortage, it's because the CoinStar machine at my supermarket has been saying it is full up for several days now.
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Old 19th September 2020, 11:06 AM   #60
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Checks are pretty darn funny. When I pay myself from my LLC, I'll write a check to "my name", signed by "my name", and then endorsed on the back by "my name."
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Old 19th September 2020, 11:57 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Checks are pretty darn funny. When I pay myself from my LLC, I'll write a check to "my name", signed by "my name", and then endorsed on the back by "my name."
I have an account at one bank where my paycheck gets deposited, but I pay certain bills from an account at a different bank. One is an individual account, and one is a joint account with my wife, and she used a different bank. So, I frequently have to transfer money between accounts.

If I were to transfer funds electronically, they would charge me three bucks for the privilege. Instead, every month, I write myself a check, and then take a picture of it on my phone, using the app from my second bank, to make a deposit. That's free.

Other than that, I might write about three checks per year.

As I get slightly braver about going out into the world, I'm using more cash now. I am actually going into stores about once or two times per week, as opposed to March and April, where I think I entered a store twice. A couple of times I have actually reverted to my old ways, that involved stopping at gas stations or 7-11 for pop or snacks, so I'm starting to spend cash again, but the coin jar is still untouched.

Seven Eleven encourages use of ATM, and actually has a sign saying please use exact change or the ATM, due to the shortage of coin.
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Old 19th September 2020, 01:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If I were to transfer funds electronically, they would charge me three bucks for the privilege. Instead, every month, I write myself a check, and then take a picture of it on my phone, using the app from my second bank, to make a deposit. That's free.
Heh, in the early days of deregulated banking, banks went overboard and slapped fees on just about everything. This had the effect of turning Australia into a cash economy. Customers would make a large withdrawal every week/fortnight and pay cash for everything. This was not good for the major retailers nor for the banks.

Now there are no fees on electonic transactions - whether they be BPAY or "Pay Anyone". Banks get their fees from the retailers. Only ATMs get charged to the hilt. Banks want to keep everything cash free. Since I switched my last regular cash payment to electronic, I have no need for any cash whatsoever.
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Old 19th September 2020, 01:43 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They're rate-limiting you, which I consider functionally equivalent to charging you.
Compared to charging from dollar one, it's not equivalent. I don't have cash deposits, but I just checked and the limit is $5K per month.

I guess if I had a cash business, I would just open accounts at several different banks. I see some have $7K or $7.5K limits with reasonable minimum balances.
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Old 19th September 2020, 01:47 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If I were to transfer funds electronically, they would charge me three bucks for the privilege. Instead, every month, I write myself a check, and then take a picture of it on my phone, using the app from my second bank, to make a deposit. That's free.

This is in the US and you don't get some number of free ACH transfers?
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Old 19th September 2020, 01:52 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
This is in the US and you don't get some number of free ACH transfers?
Yes. US. Both banks. No free transfers between banks.
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Old 20th September 2020, 02:13 PM   #66
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One of the last things I used cash for was to pay a tip for a pizza delivery.

Yet after the covid hit and giving tips violated the 1.5 meter rule all takeouts here have instituted a way you can add a tip electronically. I honestly cannot remember the last time I went to an ATM.

Here in the Netherlands cheques have vanished so long ago I never had to deal with them, only having to learn how they worked when I worked in the UK for a bit and for some reason the deposit I payed electronically could only be refunded by a cheque.

Cash is mostly becoming what dodgy plumbers and the like want to have so they can avoid a traceable cash flow here.
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Old 21st September 2020, 08:53 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
One of the last things I used cash for was to pay a tip for a pizza delivery.

Yet after the covid hit and giving tips violated the 1.5 meter rule all takeouts here have instituted a way you can add a tip electronically. I honestly cannot remember the last time I went to an ATM.

Here in the Netherlands cheques have vanished so long ago I never had to deal with them, only having to learn how they worked when I worked in the UK for a bit and for some reason the deposit I payed electronically could only be refunded by a cheque.

Cash is mostly becoming what dodgy plumbers and the like want to have so they can avoid a traceable cash flow here.
Here in the US, some of us always tip in cash. That way the server gets to go home with a little pocket jingle, and it prevents management from taking a taste of the tipped take.
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Old 21st September 2020, 05:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yes. US. Both banks. No free transfers between banks.

I assume processing an ACH is less costly for them than processing a check, even if deposited electronically, or at worst equivalent.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:07 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
I assume processing an ACH is less costly for them than processing a check, even if deposited electronically, or at worst equivalent.
I would think, but if I use a check, it's free, but if I use a transfer, I have to pay. Weird? Yes.

I'm sure it's more marketing than actual costs. The cost is very small, but people are used to free checking. As best I understand it these days, banks maintain checking accounts, for free, because they are pretty cheap these days for the bank, and a person is likely to get a mortgage, credit card, or other loan from the same place where they have their checking account, so both banks have an interest in giving me a free service. On the other hand, with an inter-bank transfer, what's happening is they are facilitating easy transfers between them and a rival.

Also, I would guess, that if they made those transactions free to consumers, people would use them a lot more often to transfer small amounts of money, because it was easy and free, but it's not free to the bank. People won't write a check for a dollar very often even if it's free, because it's a noticeable amount of work, and you don't have infinite numbers of checks, but they might transfer a dollar between accounts if it's easy and free, so the bank stands to lose more money.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:50 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I would think, but if I use a check, it's free, but if I use a transfer, I have to pay. Weird? Yes.
Yes indeed. Clearing checks is labour intensive compared to bank to bank transfers done electronically. Only ATM withdrawals (from other banks) have a fee and that is because banks charge each other the fee.

Banks want electronic transactions. As little as 10 years ago, bank branches were a nightmare characterized by lengthy queues, irate customers and abused tellers. Now these brick and mortar buildings are disappearing and those remaining have relatively few customers in them.
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:03 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Also, I would guess, that if they made those transactions free to consumers, people would use them a lot more often to transfer small amounts of money, because it was easy and free, but it's not free to the bank.

All my personal and business accounts have unlimited free ACH transfers. At least the documentation doesn't mention a limit - I suppose if I have hundreds of small transfers in and out each day, they're going to say something.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 05:26 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes indeed. Clearing checks is labour intensive compared to bank to bank transfers done electronically. Only ATM withdrawals (from other banks) have a fee and that is because banks charge each other the fee.

Banks want electronic transactions. As little as 10 years ago, bank branches were a nightmare characterized by lengthy queues, irate customers and abused tellers. Now these brick and mortar buildings are disappearing and those remaining have relatively few customers in them.
Never found that to be the case. With the exception of Friday afternoons. Most of my visits to banks over the last three decades or so have been pleasant in their physical aspects.

The policies of the banks were infuriating- but the branches were not.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 09:49 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Here in the US, some of us always tip in cash. That way the server gets to go home with a little pocket jingle, and it prevents management from taking a taste of the tipped take.
I know, but the US system for paying servers is insane in my eyes. Here both servers and delivery persons just get age appropriate wages. From what I hear from my students working in either profession the tips get spread amongst the servers, but not the non-waiting staff or the management, though of course there might be exceptions.
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Old 23rd September 2020, 06:31 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
I know, but the US system for paying servers is insane in my eyes. Here both servers and delivery persons just get age appropriate wages. From what I hear from my students working in either profession the tips get spread amongst the servers, but not the non-waiting staff or the management, though of course there might be exceptions.
The idea is that since higher tips are contingent on better service, offering an incentive for such typically results in it. I don't really know if this works since it's been quite some time that I've been served abroad. And what is an "age-appropriate wage" and how is that possibly fair?
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Old 23rd September 2020, 07:11 AM   #75
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There is less usage of cash now (or maybe I should say "cash & coins", since in context the OP seems to use "cash" to only mean paper cash). But what I've heard is that there is also less production of it. They were going to need to produce less than before anyway, but they decreased too much, whether because of incorrectly estimating how much lower the need would be or because of some sites shutting down because of the virus. (Maybe the mints themselves, or maybe some part of their supply chain.)
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Old 23rd September 2020, 07:20 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
There is less usage of cash now (or maybe I should say "cash & coins", since in context the OP seems to use "cash" to only mean paper cash). But what I've heard is that there is also less production of it. They were going to need to produce less than before anyway, but they decreased too much, whether because of incorrectly estimating how much lower the need would be or because of some sites shutting down because of the virus. (Maybe the mints themselves, or maybe some part of their supply chain.)
I actually mentioned the coin shortage first. Cash used for brevity thereafter.

Unless great masses of people are hoarding or destroying the paper/metal currency, it should eventually work it's way back to the banks and supply side. Using cards does not create a cash shortage; the reduced demand for paper and coin, with them already in the system, should provide higher than usual availability of cash, since not nearly as many are even using it.
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Old 23rd September 2020, 07:58 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I actually mentioned the coin shortage first. Cash used for brevity thereafter.

Unless great masses of people are hoarding or destroying the paper/metal currency, it should eventually work it's way back to the banks and supply side. Using cards does not create a cash shortage; the reduced demand for paper and coin, with them already in the system, should provide higher than usual availability of cash, since not nearly as many are even using it.
I think it was a combination of old stock not getting recycled, and new stock not getting minted due to the employees being sent home.
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Old Today, 12:55 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
The idea is that since higher tips are contingent on better service, offering an incentive for such typically results in it. I don't really know if this works since it's been quite some time that I've been served abroad. And what is an "age-appropriate wage" and how is that possibly fair?
The minimum wage is determined by age, with it topping off at 18, but it's at least enough that if you work a fulltime job you can get by without tips and be able to live off of it (hence the lower wage at lower ages as it's assumed you still live with your parents then).
Of course, most restaurants pay slightly above minimum wage, in which case it's not relevant.

Edited to add: Of course you can still give tips based upon service, and we do, it's just that a waiter here does not NEED tips to be able to live off of his/her work.

Last edited by Lukraak_Sisser; Today at 12:56 PM.
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Old Today, 01:12 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
The minimum wage is determined by age, with it topping off at 18, but it's at least enough that if you work a fulltime job you can get by without tips and be able to live off of it (hence the lower wage at lower ages as it's assumed you still live with your parents then).
Of course, most restaurants pay slightly above minimum wage, in which case it's not relevant.

Edited to add: Of course you can still give tips based upon service, and we do, it's just that a waiter here does not NEED tips to be able to live off of his/her work.
I think the difference is that in the US, tipped jobs like waiting tables end up clearing dramatically more than minimum wage. Like quadruple or more. A good server is making out well in this system, not exactly starving.
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