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23rd July 2022, 02:58 PM | #1401 |
Penultimate Amazing
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While I get what you're saying I must beg to differ. I think it is possible for a person with thought and reason and an ability to understand other people's dilemmas, to understand some things without having had personally to face them. I think to suggest otherwise rather trivializes the ability of many people to think well and do the right thing, and also, in a sense, dismisses the religious blindness, bias and error of those who think badly as simply a systemic deficiency, rather than an evil for which they are entirely responsible.
Being a man, and being separated from the immediacy of choice is, I'm sure, a contributing factor, as are religion, ignorance and emotional baggage, but to require some kind of qualification for opinion is a dangerous invitation to discrediting criticism in general, not all that different in substance from the argument war hawks like Dean Rusk rallied against anti-war protestors a couple of generations ago. Let the anti-choice critics shut up, by all means, not just because they're men but because they are wrong. |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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23rd July 2022, 03:24 PM | #1402 |
Penultimate Amazing
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We'll have to disagree on this one and I rarely disagree with you. Anti-choice men need to shut up because they will never, ever be faced with this and I'd bet if a bunch of women legislated removing their right to the autonomy of their own bodies, they'd be having fits. Can you imagine women legislating that men have to have a vasectomy or that they can't have one if they so choose?
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23rd July 2022, 03:42 PM | #1403 |
Penultimate Amazing
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We're probably more in agreement than not even so, though I do think it possible (at least i damned well hope so) for a man to be pro choice and for the right reasons, without having a scalpel brandished at his private parts. And, of course, it's also quite possible for women to be anti-choice as well. But I do think that much of the current problem is a matter of a misguided sense of male privilege, that presumes that there is something especially different about certain parts of a woman's body that removes it from the common idea of what ownership of one's self means, and I do think if they had to face a similar issue in their own bodies, they would come to think differently.
I don't recall when or where I first heard it, and probably many times, but agree that if men got pregnant, abortion would be in the bill of rights. I just don't think it's the only reason for being wrong, nor that role reversal is the only way to understand it. |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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23rd July 2022, 03:54 PM | #1404 |
Illuminator
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"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade |
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23rd July 2022, 04:17 PM | #1405 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Not the only way, but about as close as is possible although I don't think that men and women can truly understand what it's like to be the opposite sex.
Women can be anti-choice, but at least they do it from a female perspective and their bodily autonomy is not being denied them. |
23rd July 2022, 04:20 PM | #1406 |
Penultimate Amazing
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23rd July 2022, 05:56 PM | #1407 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
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23rd July 2022, 07:23 PM | #1408 |
Nasty Woman
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23rd July 2022, 07:25 PM | #1409 |
Nasty Woman
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24th July 2022, 01:19 AM | #1410 |
Penultimate Amazing
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A white person can never truly understand racism the way a person of color in this country can. They'll never face it just as a man will never face being told he has no control over her own body. That's why white people need to ST*U when they tell people of color that there is no systemic racism and that they are treated equally in this country.
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24th July 2022, 06:05 AM | #1411 |
Papa Funkosophy
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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24th July 2022, 11:46 AM | #1412 |
Philosopher
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"You're not allowed to argue because you're a man" is quite possibly the most short-sighted argument for abortion rights I've ever heard.
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24th July 2022, 12:11 PM | #1413 |
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24th July 2022, 12:22 PM | #1414 |
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It's also somewhat in the context of decades of examples of committee meetings, hearings, and Sunday morning news roundtables with literally all male participants and an entirely reasonable outburst of frustration.
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24th July 2022, 12:56 PM | #1415 |
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24th July 2022, 01:02 PM | #1416 |
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There isn't a position on the issue espoused by a woman that isn't also espoused by at least one man. It doesn't seem to solve the issue by listening to women. Women may be able to provide specific anecdotes, but anecdotes are not good data.
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24th July 2022, 02:07 PM | #1417 |
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24th July 2022, 02:16 PM | #1418 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I think this is the point, and one I probably more agree with than disagree with in my spat with StacyS. I think a man can argue, but if that argument comes from a failure to understand or to respect what he cannot know, then indeed, he should shut up.
By the way, not to start another post I will add that I was reading a little bit from Science News, and a statistical reminder that about 50 percent of fertilized eggs do not, under natural conditions, implant. One of the reasons they may not has to do with hormonal conditions. If the "moment of conception" folks are right, can anyone taking that position say why it would not, therefore, be within the scope of their mission to dictate to women who are, or might become, pregnant, a prescribed hormonal supplement, or likewise to forbid any action that might impede the action of the appropriate hormones? Opponents of the IUD have already extended the potential mother's duty to include provision of a hospitable uterus. Where does a potential mother's duty to host a completed pregnancy begin and end? |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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24th July 2022, 02:22 PM | #1419 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, to both.
Last night I was perusing Prime Video looking for something to watch. Just by coincidence, I ran across a French film titled "Flashback". It was very apropos to this discussion: "Charlie is a high-ranking, cynical female lawyer who believes in nothing but herself. After another winning plea*, she meets with an unconventional driver, Hubert. Driving her back in time from the French revolution, to the Glorious Thirties and the First World War, he will confront Charlie with a lot of historical characters she would have never been able to meet (Marie Curie, Jeanne d’Arc, Gisèle Halimi), witnessing the biggest milestones in women rights achieved and fought for in order to experience freedom in the 20th** century." *She uses the "wearing sexy lingerie on a date means she was looking to have sex with the man so he can't be convicted of rape" defense. ** 21st century It was a lighthearted comedy but it had a serious message: women are sick and tired of being dominated and controlled by men. We aren't going to take it anymore. The are more than a few men who need to watch it. Sadly, there are women who need to, also. Like Charlie, they've forgotten women's history and need to be reminded. |
24th July 2022, 02:25 PM | #1420 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
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24th July 2022, 02:39 PM | #1421 |
Penultimate Amazing
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THIS is what I'm talking about. Matt Gaetz yesterday on abortion rights:
Quote:
Quote:
It's a good thing that POS wasn't anywhere near me when he said that. |
25th July 2022, 07:23 AM | #1422 |
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25th July 2022, 08:26 AM | #1423 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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25th July 2022, 08:29 AM | #1424 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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25th July 2022, 09:36 AM | #1425 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
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25th July 2022, 09:54 AM | #1426 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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25th July 2022, 10:05 AM | #1427 |
Philosopher
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25th July 2022, 10:07 AM | #1428 |
Penultimate Amazing
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25th July 2022, 10:28 AM | #1429 |
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-- August Pamplona |
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25th July 2022, 10:58 AM | #1430 |
Penultimate Amazing
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25th July 2022, 02:23 PM | #1431 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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Elizabeth Stone recounts what her pre-R v W abortion was like and what it will be like again for many women now thanks to the SC and the GOP anti-choice state governments:
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25th July 2022, 02:30 PM | #1432 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I've just bounced into the last page of this thread and have read the comments by Stacy and Ginger, and, in fact, that is exactly what they have said.
Anti-choice men need to STFU. Your accusation that all men have to STFU just because they are men is a misrepresentation of what I have seen right here. |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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25th July 2022, 02:48 PM | #1433 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
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25th July 2022, 03:01 PM | #1434 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, I went off on that, because I thought the initial post suggested that and reminded me too much of the "stay in your own lane" ideas by which warmongers and the like try to disqualify dissent, but got some clarification, and for my part I'm satisfied that the issue here is specifically anti-choice men who are unwilling to accept experiences that are not their own as being valid.
And as I'm a man and not being told to shut up, the implication at least is that not all men must shut up (even though I'm sure there are a few around here who wish I would). |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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25th July 2022, 03:11 PM | #1435 |
Penultimate Amazing
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25th July 2022, 03:42 PM | #1436 |
Evil Fokker
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www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- |
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26th July 2022, 04:18 AM | #1437 |
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Actually, that selective application is the problem with Stacyhs's argument. In her argument as she herself stated it, the reasons she gave for anti-choice men to STFU apply equally to pro-choice men. She doesn't want to listen when people mention that defect in her argument, but the defect remains regardless of whether she wants to hear it.
Here is her argument, in her own words, with her own bolding: As has been noted, that's a self-own: The various attempts to redeem the argument have relied upon the same special pleading that Stacyhs literally bold-faced in her original statement of her argument. Here is an example of that special pleading: The fact that Stacyhs has assured bruto that she does not want him to shut up simply highlights her selective application of her argument. |
26th July 2022, 04:29 AM | #1438 |
Penultimate Amazing
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This goes back to the same ideas behind claims that somebody can be racially black, but not "politically" black. It's not as if there is unanimity amongst women on abortion. It's just that all women who are "politically" women, hold the approved beliefs. No true "political" Scotsman is pro-life.
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26th July 2022, 04:47 AM | #1439 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Any idea how the discrepancies between these laws and best health care practices will play out in terms of liability? If you have to wait for a woman to be dying to abort her dead fetus that is medical malpractice as you are not following best medical practices.
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26th July 2022, 05:15 AM | #1440 |
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Best medical practice has always sat below the law. It is why you can't sue a doctor even when you can reasonably argue best medical practice would have been to violate FDA regulation (or any other regulation)....best medical practice automatically falls below the law
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