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Old 29th July 2022, 10:32 AM   #81
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
(apologies for taking a cookie cutter to your post)

I can certainly see a major push by some quarters to push for much better elementary and middle school civics and current affairs coursework!

My flippancy aside, I agree with your sentiment, thus the idea of adding a minor reward, and responsibility, for those who want to vote, and allowing those who choose not to vote to lead their lives as they choose sans the reward and the responsibility of participating in local, state, and federal politics.
I've read far too much criticism of democracy this year. I have a hard time in believing in it as a real, substantial thing.
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Old 29th July 2022, 10:36 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Okay, yeah,your ideas amount to rendering the concept in most of the western world of political free speech as non existent.
To the extent that Western Capitalist nations seem to prefer to allow capital and private money to corrupt and dominate their political systems and call it "free speech,"
I agree with you.
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Old 29th July 2022, 10:37 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
To the extent that Western Capitalist nations seem to prefer to allow capital and private money to corrupt and dominate their political, justice and economic systems and call it "free speech."

I agree with you.
I don't think protestors who make and hand out political signs at a protest think they are using private money to dominate.
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Old 29th July 2022, 10:47 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I've read far too much criticism of democracy this year. I have a hard time in believing in it as a real, substantial thing.
I understand, and to a degree, share in your incredulity. How could anyone but a hardcore Pollyanna not share at least some measure of such with regard to the modern state of politics in this, and most other nations on the planet.
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Old 29th July 2022, 10:50 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think protestors who make and hand out political signs at a protest think they are using private money to dominate.
I don't know about handing stuff out a protest, that would have to be examined in more detail, but I wouldn't see a problem with you discussing your views with others, or even handing out a business card with your website address on it.
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Old 29th July 2022, 10:53 AM   #86
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(repeat reply - deleted)
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Old 29th July 2022, 11:03 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
I don't know about handing stuff out a protest, that would have to be examined in more detail, but I wouldn't see a problem with you discussing your views with others, or even handing out a business card with your website address on it.
But I can't purchase materials to make a sign stating who I think others to vote.for.
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Old 29th July 2022, 03:17 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But I can't purchase materials to make a sign stating who I think others to vote.for.
You can make it, and carry it yourself. so long as the sign fits within the allowable private supporters of Publicly-funded campaign regulations (something along the lines of all private signs must be, of a uniform size) no problem!

Everyone else may do the same, either making or buying their signs for themselves.

Making them and giving them to others or buying signs to give to others, would be a violation of Publicly-funded campaign finance laws as an illegal private money contribution to a political campaign.

The candidate can pay you to carry a sign for them, and/or provide you with a sign to carry, but that money must come out of their equal share of Public funding provided for each of their campaigns.
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Old 29th July 2022, 09:40 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Politics favours such people anyway. Throwing a bunch of uniformed, unmotivated people at them who need to be herded is hardly going to put the common man in charge.
So why are you worried about this "huge voting block" of otherwise "uniformed, unmotivated people"?
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Old 30th July 2022, 03:05 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So why are you worried about this "huge voting block" of otherwise "uniformed, unmotivated people"?
Because the larger and more uninformed and disinterested the electorate gets, the worse the problems with democracy get. That isn't because there is any danger of the common man actually being in power.
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Old 30th July 2022, 03:06 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
I understand, and to a degree, share in your incredulity. How could anyone but a hardcore Pollyanna not share at least some measure of such with regard to the modern state of politics in this, and most other nations on the planet.
If you are interested in this kind of thing Democracy the God That Failed by Hoppe is a good way in.
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Old 7th August 2022, 11:38 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you are interested in this kind of thing Democracy the God That Failed by Hoppe is a good way in.
Interesting, but I'm more interested in why you would consider this an appropriate (yet alone a "good way in") for those interested in creating a more democratic form of government in the U.S.?
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Old 7th August 2022, 01:08 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Interesting, but I'm more interested in why you would consider this an appropriate (yet alone a "good way in") for those interested in creating a more democratic form of government in the U.S.?
Well, if one were interested in such a project, I had thought that problems associated with democracy that your "more democratic system" might either make worse or better would be important. If you are simply designing a maximally democratic system and aren't interested in practicalities or outcomes, then there hardly seems enough in the question to be worth talking about.
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Old 9th August 2022, 12:58 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Well, if one were interested in such a project, I had thought that problems associated with democracy that your "more democratic system" might either make worse or better would be important. If you are simply designing a maximally democratic system and aren't interested in practicalities or outcomes, then there hardly seems enough in the question to be worth talking about.
I would be interested in a discussion about both the benefits and the problems of democracy both as a guiding philosophy and in it's more pure forms, though I'm not sure that on the detrimental side of democracy there is much that is new beyond the tyranny of the majority and problems of governing consensus. I just don't know that Hoppe's work is a good, yet alone the best, exploration of that subject. I am interested in hearing your take upon that work and why you feel that it is a good way into this topic.
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:44 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
I would be interested in a discussion about both the benefits and the problems of democracy both as a guiding philosophy and in it's more pure forms, though I'm not sure that on the detrimental side of democracy there is much that is new beyond the tyranny of the majority and problems of governing consensus. I just don't know that Hoppe's work is a good, yet alone the best, exploration of that subject. I am interested in hearing your take upon that work and why you feel that it is a good way into this topic.
Typically the sources people know and refer to are known as part of the general culture, and are in universally in favour of democracy. I do not think Hoppe falls into either of those descriptions. Hoppe is an economist, and so his arguments come from that way of thinking about the world.... looking at incentives.

It's hardly a unique observation, but Hoppe claims democracy encourages high time preference behaviour. Democracies find it very difficult to do long term planning, or stick with a plan longer than a couple of years once it is made. There are elections to be won, after all.

I think he also makes a comparison between renters vs home owners. Who takes better care of their home? Generally it is owners because they are motivated to look after their asset. The leaders of democracies function like renters. If you look at congress, it is in their interests to extract as much from the system as possible even if it beggars the country, the national debt isn't their debt after all. With hereditary monarchy, the wealth of the nation is an asset that the monarch inherits and passes on and his prestige is tied to the strength of the nation. I don't expect you to accept these arguments, but there is far more to be said against democracy than one typically hears.

Effectively the book is an analysis of what behaviours democracies actually incentivise.
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:27 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
...Hoppe is an economist, and so his arguments come from that way of thinking about the world.... looking at incentives.
For some reason, though I read and write "Hoppe," my internal editor keeps wanting to substitute "Hobbes," it must be some sort of Psych conflation quirk. Though, in looking at Hoppe's work on democracy and Hobbe's opinion that state or society cannot be secure unless at the disposal of an absolute sovereign, thereby abrogating the established Western Civ. tradition that human beings are naturally suited to life in a polis and do not fully realize their natures until they exercise the role of citizen, perhaps I can parse out the conflation my subconscious is sensitive to.

That said, while I certainly don't object to an economic perspective on the issue of democracy, nor more broadly the idea of both positive and negative personal incentives as part of the group of the motivators for a stable governance system. But, I certainly would not exclude other factors and perspectives from the discussion, and I certainly would not place the economic perspective as the primary or most important perspective in such considerations.

If one is seeking to make a minimal modification of the current global/national set of circumstances, then just minorly tweaking the politics without changing any of the other major systems of our civilization, is more likely than not, doomed to failure, as we've constantly tweaked all of our civilization's systems repeatedly over the last few centuries, primarily to optimize the profits of capitalism's theft of labor value, and concentrated the command and control of that system to fewer and fewer decreed by virtue of their stolen wealth, Capitalist Overlords.

Quote:
It's hardly a unique observation, but Hoppe claims democracy encourages high time preference behaviour. Democracies find it very difficult to do long term planning, or stick with a plan longer than a couple of years once it is made. There are elections to be won, after all.
Not sure I'm understanding how you /he are defining that phrase "High Time Preference Behavior?"

Quote:
Effectively the book is an analysis of what behaviours democracies actually incentivise.
Not sure that you are defining the behaviors democracy incentivizes, so much as the systems within which modern variants of democracy are allowed to exist, but we can explore that more if it is important to how you look at democracy.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Not sure I'm understanding how you /he are defining that phrase "High Time Preference Behavior?"
Wanting things now rather than being prepared to wait. It's the value you place on time. Somebody who saves, or makes plans that won't deliver for 30 or 100 years is low time preference. Somebody who sells their house and spends the money on hookers is high time preference.
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Old 10th August 2022, 03:03 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Not sure that you are defining the behaviors democracy incentivizes, so much as the systems within which modern variants of democracy are allowed to exist, but we can explore that more if it is important to how you look at democracy.
It's pretty much democracy as a concept. There is then a bunch of guys, most notably the Italian Elite School, though the idea is hardly confined to them, that would tell you that the idea of The People being in some sense "sovereign" or democracy being about ascertaining some kind of "will of the people" is every bit as much of a power justifying myth as the King being chosen by God, or the Communist party being the dictatorship of the proletariat. You see these ideas in places in de Tocqueville, so they really aren't in any sense new.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:09 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Wanting things now rather than being prepared to wait. It's the value you place on time. Somebody who saves, or makes plans that won't deliver for 30 or 100 years is low time preference. Somebody who sells their house and spends the money on hookers is high time preference.
And how do you distinguish the difference between, merely wanting things now, because you are impatient, and the need to address existential issues which can't wait until after civilization has collapsed and humanity has already shed the mortal coil before they want to find the time to address those pesky life and death issues?
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:56 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
And how do you distinguish the difference between, merely wanting things now, because you are impatient, and the need to address existential issues which can't wait until after civilization has collapsed and humanity has already shed the mortal coil before they want to find the time to address those pesky life and death issues?
Time preference is an established part of economics. I didn't think it was controversial that politicians have an eye on the election cycle when they make policy decisions. Cathedrals took generations to build, now that is low time preference.

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Old 11th August 2022, 10:42 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
And how do you distinguish the difference between, merely wanting things now, because you are impatient, and the need to address existential issues which can't wait until after civilization has collapsed and humanity has already shed the mortal coil before they want to find the time to address those pesky life and death issues?

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Time preference is an established part of economics. I didn't think it was controversial that politicians have an eye on the election cycle when they make policy decisions. Cathedrals took generations to build, now that is low time preference.

Avoiding my questions does not answer my questions. Business as usual is generally a lethal response to dire emergency/existential situations. Cathedrals could take millennia, as it would be entirely unimportant if they needed to slow/halt construction for a few centuries to deal with wars, famine, economic collapse...

Evolution may provide an eventual solution for climate change, but it is increasingly unlikely that humanity will be around to celebrate nature's triumph.
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:42 PM   #102
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I am predicting if we ever do have a revolution in America, it will NOT be carried out by wannabe intellecutuals, who like to make proposols without reference to the real world.
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:06 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Avoiding my questions does not answer my questions. Business as usual is generally a lethal response to dire emergency/existential situations. Cathedrals could take millennia, as it would be entirely unimportant if they needed to slow/halt construction for a few centuries to deal with wars, famine, economic collapse...
I do not dodge questions. I'm not debating this with you. I thought you might find it interesting. If you are interested, you have everything you need to look further, if you aren't, I apologise for bothering you. There is a world of ideas outside the liberal canon. This forum is not suited for usefully debating ideas with significantly differing assumptions about the world, least of all when they involve a bunch of theory and historical analysis which nobody is going to read.

Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Evolution may provide an eventual solution for climate change, but it is increasingly unlikely that humanity will be around to celebrate nature's triumph.
If people are not willing to sacrifice today, to ensure there is still a world for themselves, their children, or grandchildren, then that is an example of time preference.

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Old 12th August 2022, 04:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am predicting if we ever do have a revolution in America, it will NOT be carried out by wannabe intellecutuals, who like to make proposols without reference to the real world.
Are you predicting the revolution will be carried out by people who can't spell?
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Old 12th August 2022, 11:33 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
... There is a world of ideas outside the liberal canon...
Indeed, Progressivism as I understand, and as my family has followed it for the last century or so, is completely outside of Modern (and generally "Traditional") Liberalism altogether.

Quote:
If people are not willing to sacrifice today, to ensure there is still a world for themselves, their children, or grandchildren, then that is an example of time preference.
These people are dooming themselves and their children, but mostly won't have to worry about the grandchildren that will never live to mature to adulthood, by following the left and right death cults to their ignoble goals.
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Old 19th August 2022, 12:58 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Indeed, Progressivism as I understand, and as my family has followed it for the last century or so, is completely outside of Modern (and generally "Traditional") Liberalism altogether.
I don't doubt you about how your family has followed it. As far as I can see, progressivism is absolutely in the tradition of liberal thought going right back to the beginning though. I think maybe people confuse a spirit of rugged independence, or some other feature of traditional America, for liberalism. Those are just the features of a particular people in whom liberal ideas happened to take hold.

Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
These people are dooming themselves and their children, but mostly won't have to worry about the grandchildren that will never live to mature to adulthood, by following the left and right death cults to their ignoble goals.
I really think people here need to read more criticisms of liberalism and modernity. The problems with rationalism and liberalism as world views have been being discussed since before the American revolution, and actively since the French.... and yet people seem to simultaneously have boundless confidence in exactly this liberalism and near total ignorance of the concerns and doubts that have been expressed about these ideas since they were newly minted.
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Old 28th August 2022, 11:01 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't doubt you about how your family has followed it. As far as I can see, progressivism is absolutely in the tradition of liberal thought going right back to the beginning though.
With regard to modern progressivism, I would certainly agree. But, such "progressivism" is little more than neoliberal-lite, very corporate friendly, and ultimately little more than sloganism. None of which has anything to do with Progressivism.

In many ways Progressivism in politics is as much about the process of establishing public policy as it is about the intended goals of that public policy.
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Old 28th August 2022, 02:28 PM   #108
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I disagree.
Progressivism does extend to improving the country not just through policies, but also by changing the institutions themsey, as can be seen by efforts to change elections laws to make it easier to vote in general, and adopt alternatives to first-past-the-post voting, like Ranked Choice.
These reforms would have a profound effect on the political landscape and would do a lot more than just giving one Party an advantage over the other.
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Old 31st August 2022, 08:14 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I disagree.
Progressivism does extend to improving the country not just through policies, but also by changing the institutions themsey, as can be seen by efforts to change elections laws to make it easier to vote in general, and adopt alternatives to first-past-the-post voting, like Ranked Choice.
These reforms would have a profound effect on the political landscape and would do a lot more than just giving one Party an advantage over the other.
I understand that these are your opinions and considerations, and are doctrinarian to the modern "progressive" perspective, which to me is not actually Progressive, so much as some kinder/gentler veneer of neoliberal pablum for the sheepdogs of the left-of-center masses.
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Old 31st August 2022, 08:25 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
I understand that these are your opinions and considerations, and are doctrinarian to the modern "progressive" perspective, which to me is not actually Progressive, so much as some kinder/gentler veneer of neoliberal pablum for the sheepdogs of the left-of-center masses.
then you are wrong: anything that changes the System itself is truly progressive, even if only because it shows that true change is possible.
it is just factually wrong to claim that, when all is said and done, the two parties are really the same.
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Old 31st August 2022, 08:45 AM   #111
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And that's sort of the problem with the Left having defined themselves this much and to this degree as being the "We have to fix the system" party.

What do they do when they ARE the system? It's sort of cuts the legs out of effective governing when you're already pre-demonized every way to be in power or hold power.

At least Right uses the whole "Government doesn't work" routine as part of their message.
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Old 31st August 2022, 09:20 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What do they do when they ARE the system?
You mean when they've got voting rights passed, abortion rights secured, gerrymandering abolished, universal health care, the equal rights amendment (or equivalent protections) in place, and other long-past-due updates to bring the nation into something resembling the 21st century? They're going to celebrate, I assume. Mission ******* accomplished.
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Old 31st August 2022, 09:26 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You mean when they've got voting rights passed, abortion rights secured, gerrymandering abolished, universal health care, the equal rights amendment (or equivalent protections) in place, and other long-past-due updates to bring the nation into something resembling the 21st century? They're going to celebrate, I assume. Mission ******* accomplished.
But systems are evil and corrupt and blah-blah-blah.

Or is it a coincidence that Democrats actually working in the system are never good enough for Progressives?

Again I'm so totaaaaaallly sure that the Squad and all the the other Progressive darlings are going to be able to snap their fingers and get everything done without dirty campaign money from evil capitalist and without making any across the aisle deals.

Again it's easy to be pure when you're not doing nothing. We're all vegetarians between meals.
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Old 31st August 2022, 10:31 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But systems are evil and corrupt and blah-blah-blah.

Or is it a coincidence that Democrats actually working in the system are never good enough for Progressives?
Not all systems, but this one could use some attention, yeah. The Democrats are just now beginning to wake up from a decades-long slumber where anything that wasn't dark moneyed neoliberalism was shoved to the back burner and forgotten, and now the smoldering is getting out of control. For pete's sake, we had Roe vs Wade hanging on by a SC policy decision for fifty years and not once could the Democrats pass legislation to codify it as law despite the other party taking overt steps to marginalize and eventually overturn it. Nor can we do it at present, even, but at least now people are acting like we ought to.

Whether this change is coming from the Dems finally smelling the fire of their own fecklessness or finally hearing the Progessives banging on the cellar door yelling THERE IS A ******* FIRE UP THERE DO SOMETHING, I don't really care. There is a fire, someone needs to do something about it, we can debate about the most effective way to approach the next one after this one's out.

Quote:
Again I'm so totaaaaaallly sure that the Squad and all the the other Progressive darlings are going to be able to snap their fingers and get everything done without dirty campaign money from evil capitalist and without making any across the aisle deals.

Again it's easy to be pure when you're not doing nothing. We're all vegetarians between meals.
As opposed to the Dems' established track record of sitting on their hands while making excuses, and trying to ratchet down expectations until "well the nation is not actively getting worse right now" is sold as an accomplishment? If dirty campaign money from evil capitalists and across aisle deals worked Progressives wouldn't be able to get a foothold. They'd still be the marginalized hippie dips handing out legal weed pamphlets and these days probably bitching about misgendering each other's avocado toast, because that's all they'd have to run on. But all those moral compromises you mention aren't working, the establishment Dems need to fight ever harder to keep from being primaried and it's scaring the piss out of them. Good.

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Old 31st August 2022, 10:33 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
As opposed to the Dems' established track record of sitting on their hands while making excuses, and trying to ratchet down expectations until "well the nation is not actively getting worse right now" is sold as an accomplishment?
Right that absolutely is an accurate description of the last few weeks of Biden's administration.
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Old 31st August 2022, 10:39 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Right that absolutely is an accurate description of the last few weeks of Biden's administration.
the last few weeks
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Old 31st August 2022, 10:51 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
the last few weeks
Which is more then progressives have done ever.

That's why you love them. They can remain forever perfect, never having to actually live in a world of compromise and reality so they can always remain virginal and pure.

Biden has to live in the real world, a world with an entire 40% of the population backing elected trolls who openly admit that obstructing him is literally their only goal.
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Old 31st August 2022, 10:54 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
...Again it's easy to be pure when you're not doing nothing...
So that's my problem, I'm supposed to expect my elected officials to do nothing, and I've wasted most of my life expecting elected officials to do the things they claim they will do and I voted for them to accomplish,...so what is the purpose of voting again?!
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Old 31st August 2022, 11:06 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Which is more then progressives have done ever.

That's why you love them. They can remain forever perfect, never having to actually live in a world of compromise and reality so they can always remain virginal and pure.

Biden has to live in the real world, a world with an entire 40% of the population backing elected trolls who openly admit that obstructing him is literally their only goal.
And he only finds success when he stops trying to reach across the aisle and starts pursuing his own objectives without preemptively compromising them in order to please the unpleasable, exactly as Progressives kept telling him he needed to be doing the whole time.

Again, it doesn't matter to me whether Democrats step aside and let Progressives do their job or pull their heads out of their asses and do it themselves. What matters is it gets done. Nuke the filibuster. Unpack the supreme court. Ensure fair elections. Protect the lives and rights of the increasingly marginalized. This country's about one Reichstag Fire away from going full Nazi, we do not have the time to piss about.

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