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4th August 2022, 07:28 PM | #1721 |
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4th August 2022, 08:17 PM | #1722 |
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4th August 2022, 08:30 PM | #1723 |
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4th August 2022, 09:54 PM | #1724 |
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5th August 2022, 02:40 AM | #1725 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Would you care to point out to me exactly where I said it was YOUR original claim?
I was referring to Trump's false claim and those who repeat it: “In the ninth month you can take the baby and rip the baby right out of the womb, just prior to the birth of the baby. You can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month, on the final day. And that's not acceptable." (Trump-Clinton 3rd debate) Mike Pence: ""I'm pro-life, I don't apologize for it. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris support taxpayer funding of abortion all the way up to the moment of birth." (2020 Pence-Harris Debate) I was also referring to Warp12 who has repeatedly demanded to know if we support a law that would forbid abortions at 8 1/2 weeks: 1. How can a baby be aborted AFTER birth? 2. Try reading what I said again. I said "the two latest terminations verified were at 28 and 30 weeks". Did I say those two fetuses had not been delivered and then killed? No. I said they were 'terminated' and the latest verified. The fact that you and Warp can only identify ONE....ONE...doctor who did it is not evidence that "doctorS" do it. Wow. You're making a lot of claims there based on what exactly? Can you refer me to a single case in any of the five states that have no restrictions of a doctor performing an unnecessary third trimester abortion just because a woman wanted one? No. You can't. But don't let that stop you. No...wait....on second thought.... Only partially true. It was the suspicion of illegal drug dispensing that initiated the investigation of Gosnell, but that investigation revealed the death of the woman (not 'women') at the clinic, the unsanitary operations and conditions, the untrained staff, and lack of medical supervision of the drugs. When the clinic was raided, it wasn't just because of the drugs. |
5th August 2022, 05:11 AM | #1726 |
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Can someone explain the rape and incest people that make up so much of the electorate?
I understand the abortion is murder crowd....nothing about rape or incest would justify murdering a third party. I understand the abortion is not murder crowd... just make abortions legal, problem solved. But what goes into opposing abortion but thinking it should be legal for rape or incest? What is the philosophy behind that? |
5th August 2022, 05:13 AM | #1727 |
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5th August 2022, 05:21 AM | #1728 |
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5th August 2022, 05:30 AM | #1729 |
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5th August 2022, 06:05 AM | #1730 |
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5th August 2022, 06:10 AM | #1731 |
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5th August 2022, 06:17 AM | #1732 |
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5th August 2022, 06:18 AM | #1733 |
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Yes it's called "I'm against abortion except in cases of rape and incest."
Join us next week for another exciting episode of "Someone pretends they don't know how language works." |
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5th August 2022, 06:19 AM | #1734 |
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Where's your evidence for what they were and weren't being diagnosed by him for?
Where's your evidence for this? The community that made up Gosnell's clients were not like you, Zig. They couldn't afford to shop around for medical care. In many cases they were immigrants, with a limited use of English and virtually no understanding of our medical system. You're making assumptions of why people do things without the slightest knowledge of the situations those people were in. Your evidence for this is the same assumptions you've made, right? Because we've already established that you're under the assumption that Gosnell's patients had access to medical services and insurance and money to pay for those things that we know they didn't have. No, I have no fantasy about Gosnell's business. I am just not operating from the framework you seem to be stuck in. I know that you're making a lot of assumptions about motivations, and ability to pay, and knowledge of the medical system in America, that aren't applicable to the people you're talking about, and using those assumptions to prove what you've already assumed. |
5th August 2022, 06:29 AM | #1735 |
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5th August 2022, 06:48 AM | #1736 |
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5th August 2022, 06:56 AM | #1737 |
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5th August 2022, 07:21 AM | #1738 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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5th August 2022, 07:48 AM | #1739 |
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Assuming you are asking in good faith I will describe as was described to me by a local NARAL organizer:
In the US you have about Group A) 1/3 wanted free and unrestricted abortion rights Group b) 1/3 want abortion banned and Group C) 1/3 want abortion available, but are either fine or indifferent with restrictions and conditions on abortions such as 24hr waiting, 12-15 week limits, parental notification, etc, etc. (these numbers are not exact and are prone to change) Group B initially went for full out attempts to ban, but this hit walls, so since the late 80's they have been using the tactic of legistlating restrictions on abortion. This was done with the effort of soothing group C that it really wasn't a big deal, scare tactics about "partial-birth abortions", claims that those slutty women are using abortion as birth control, and many other tactics. For the most part it was worked as Group C isn't as invested as Group A in fighting against 24 waiting periods. However, Group C has a hard line and that is rape and incest. If a woman has sex and gets pregnant they can reason that she should have been better prepared, kept her legs shut, etc. But rape? What was she supposed to do? Ask their rapist to out on a condom? Ask them to wait while put in their diaphragm? That's a hard limit for even the skeeviest of Group C. So often Group B puts on the mask of "Oh! We would never restrict *those* abortions!" and so they usually add in some bit about allowing abortion in those cases as long as the patient files a full police report with 500 pages of documentation, etc. That mask sometimes convinces Group C sometimes does not. The mask falls off a lot. |
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5th August 2022, 07:51 AM | #1740 |
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Also "Except in the case of rape" is largely a social compromise, it's not (all the time) a stance someone holds on a personal level.
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5th August 2022, 08:09 AM | #1741 |
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Or, more likely: The forced-birthers want to end all abortions because they think women are chattel. But, they realize that they will have a harder time getting complete abortion bans in place, so they concede to allowing abortion in these limited circumstances.
Once you ban elective abortions, they can then go after the ones involving rape/incest. - They can make the legal requirements so difficult that few abortions will qualify. (You want an abortion because you were raped? You need a sworn admission of guilt from the rapist, plus you have to wait until after the rapist has served their time.) - Ending elective abortions will leave fewer clinics offering abortion services, and the doctors working at those clinics might be hesitant to perform the procedure in case they have to deal with an over-zealous prosecutor Eventually we will be in a utopia where 10 year old rape victims will know the joy of being a mother before they become a teenager! |
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5th August 2022, 08:20 AM | #1742 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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5th August 2022, 08:22 AM | #1743 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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5th August 2022, 08:23 AM | #1744 |
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Thank you for the reply
My question is along the lines of why does group C think that is appropriate. Group A thinks their position is correct because they view it as a woman's right and just a medical procedure, and it isn't murder. Group B thinks they are correct because they view it as murder. Why does group C exist? What values do they hold? Is it a matter of this issue having low salience to them? |
5th August 2022, 08:43 AM | #1745 |
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Overturning RvW does not in and of itself make abortion illegal, and only a few states have moved to do so. Most states will not. But yes, Gosnell wouldn't be stopped by abortion being illegal. Which has been used as one of the arguments in favor of legalizing abortion.
Are you under the mistaken impression that I'm arguing in favor of making abortion illegal? Because I'm not. |
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5th August 2022, 08:49 AM | #1746 |
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There's a host of reasons. Some think abortion shouldn't be easy and have no problem making it harder to obtain. Perhaps justifying it that we also limit some drugs to prescription only. Some, it just doesn't effect them directly so they don't care (until it does effect them). Some genuinely feel abortion is murder but forcing a woman to carry a child of rape is worse. You could find a million different reasonings among group C.
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5th August 2022, 08:52 AM | #1747 |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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5th August 2022, 08:58 AM | #1748 |
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Well, though I'm on the rights side here, I think I can imgine a position for the other side which translates more or less into "something is better than nothing." Persons who would like to ban all abortions might, in an actual real world, consider the possibility that allowing certain exceptions comes closer to achieving their goal than disallowing them and losing the whole fight. Besides, in the real world, it is not so uncommon to find that one's pet theories are alloyed with other ones, and two relatively incompatible ideas (e.g. the abhorrence of abortion and the abhorrence of rape) make purity impractical.
Lost causes can be noble, but the operative term here is "lost." Pure theory is, of course, different, and it's quite right and reasonable to note the degree to which such exceptions violate it, but I think it is probably disingenuous to suggest that one cannot understand why actual people in an actual world might bend to the practical at the expense of the ideal. I realize that your customary position would be to choose nothing over imperfection, but I believe that is a minority position in the real world. |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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5th August 2022, 09:10 AM | #1749 |
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Very few people share Bob's love of only embracing philosophies that are so pure they don't actually work.
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5th August 2022, 09:20 AM | #1750 |
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5th August 2022, 09:30 AM | #1751 |
Penultimate Amazing
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https://dupontclinic.com/services/ab...fter-26-weeks/
"If you are 26 weeks or later into your pregnancy, we can still see you, regardless of your medical history, background, or fetal indications. We do not require any particular “reason” to be seen here – if you would like to terminate your pregnancy, we support you in that decision."They ADVERTISE this service (it's legal in DC, where they are located). Yet you want me to believe that nobody uses it? Why would nobody do it where it's legal, when we know people did it where it was illegal? Are you really that confused about how humans work? But if you want an example of an actual specific person who got an elective third trimester abortion, I can provide that too: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/psrh.12190 This paper has several specific examples of people getting third trimester abortions. Some of them were medically necessary, but not all of them were. For example, several were pregnancies where the woman didn't know she was pregnant until after 24 weeks, but wanted an abortion for completely elective reasons. You may consider these cases justified. But justified or not, they are still absolutely third-trimester elective abortions. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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5th August 2022, 09:43 AM | #1752 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Read the god damn grand jury report. That wasn't his business, that wasn't what he did. People didn't go to him for other medical care. They went specifically for abortions. He didn't even have the equipment to diagnose anyone with anything.
Quote:
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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5th August 2022, 10:26 AM | #1753 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I did read it. It doesn't support your claims. That's why I'm asking you to do so.
No, I am not under the impression that Gosnell was doing this for free. I know that he charged for abortions. The numbers I see quoted that he charged for abortions seem substantially lower than what insurance companies are charged, however. And because of the Hyde Amendment, Medicaid doesn't cover abortions at all no matter who you go to. And in your zeal to claim all Gosnell did was elective late term abortions all the time, you seem to forget that it was his narcotic prescription business that caught the attention of authorites. |
5th August 2022, 10:50 AM | #1754 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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5th August 2022, 12:54 PM | #1755 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Week 28 (*see below) starts the third trimester, not week 26. Also they said no reason is necessary "to be seen"...to get an appointment..., not that they'll provide an abortion at any week of gestation regardless of the health and viability of the fetus.
Actually, they are not "third-trimester elective abortions." Why the article erroneously describes these as 'third trimester', I don't know. *MOST sources cite the third trimester as weeks 28-40 while a few cite weeks 27-40. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists define it as "Third trimester (28 weeks and 0 days to 40 weeks and 6 days)". However, both the cases in the article of non-fetal abnormalities abortions were still late second trimester by either definition. All cases profiled in the article were due to fetal abnormalities except the two following: Autumn who only found out she was pregnant at 26 weeks and had an abortion. That is two weeks BEFORE the third trimester begins. Veronica was 25 weeks pregnant, three weeks BEFORE the third trimester begins. Therefore, your claim in not correct. |
5th August 2022, 12:55 PM | #1756 |
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If I had goddamn genie I would wish that being wrong wore people out as much as arguing with them does.
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5th August 2022, 01:37 PM | #1757 |
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He also forced people to have abortions who didn't want them, which speaks to his motives. In order to be an elective late-term abortion, you have to know their motives, regardless of whether Gosnell told them the truth about their condition at the time or not. Context wouldn't hurt, either.
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5th August 2022, 03:24 PM | #1758 |
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Huh, makes perfect sense to me...I was raised pro-life but I am now firmly in camp 'A'
For me, my time in that camp was based basically on an innate understanding that there is a range of decisions and not all black and white. So the exceptions in case of rape or incest were pretty much the same as the exceptions for when life of woman was at risk--She has the superior right to life since she is already an adult. Forcing her to carry a child and give birth after rape effectively ends her life--destroys her psychologically (and in fact can lead to suicide). There is still a belief that the unborn's life is worth protecting, but an understanding that not all cases are equal and sometimes the mother takes priority as basically a right to self defense (another traditional conservative doctrine). |
5th August 2022, 04:16 PM | #1759 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That seems like rationalizing to me. Why is the child of a rape any less a child deserving of life than one not conceived in rape? A woman can be just as destroyed psychologically by being forced to give birth and then have to give it up for adoption because she cannot care for it. She will have to live the rest of her life knowing she has a child somewhere and agonize over not knowing if it was adopted by a loving or abusive person or if it's even alive.
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5th August 2022, 05:28 PM | #1760 |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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