|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
5th August 2022, 02:14 PM | #801 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,530
|
|
5th August 2022, 02:19 PM | #802 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
5th August 2022, 02:20 PM | #803 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
5th August 2022, 02:21 PM | #804 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
5th August 2022, 02:22 PM | #805 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
But maybe this discussion should be in another thread?
|
||
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|||
5th August 2022, 03:00 PM | #806 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,306
|
The EC "winner-takes-all" method is very undemocratic.
For example, Florida has 29 EC votes, and the 2020 election result was Biden/Harris 5,297,045 (48%), Trump/Pence 5,668,731 (52%). Under the current system, all 29 EC votes went to Trump - effectively rendering the votes of 5,297,045 Floridians powerless, meaningless and irrelevant. I suggest that a better and fairer way is to allocate EC votes by percentage of the popular vote, so 52% of 29 = 15.08 ~ 15 EC votes for Trump 48% of 29 = 13.92 ~ 14 EC votes for Biden Even the "congressional district" system used by Nebraska and Maine are fairer than the current system. I also think your Senate should be proportionally representative of state populations, with each state having a guaranteed one seat, and additional seats allocated according to population (which could result in a total of more than 100 seats in the Senate... but this is a different debate for a different day. |
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
5th August 2022, 06:04 PM | #807 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
And the Jan ^th Commitee is definently interested in Jones cellphone....
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
5th August 2022, 09:39 PM | #808 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 10,678
|
Sure you're not thinking of the Senate rather than the EC, there? Senate would be same amount of power. For the EC, it's more like said two escalators in the entire state state has significantly lower total power and dramatically more power per individual voter than said state that has the 4th largest economy in the world.
That would be great, for the record, but I would strongly recommend adding a provisional implementation clause, to make it so that it wouldn't be so easily used simply as a political weapon to make the final EC count skewed even further away from actually being reflective of the vote. |
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
|
6th August 2022, 02:06 PM | #809 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
6th August 2022, 03:42 PM | #810 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
I think far more radically than most Democrats although it's not necessarily more liberal. I think we should get rid of not just the EC and the Senate but the States themselves. I see the States as a silly division that might have made sense in 1789 but makes very little today. I still believe there is a need for county governments, but I see State governments redundant and get in the way of progress.
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
6th August 2022, 04:15 PM | #811 |
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 53,086
|
|
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes." |
|
6th August 2022, 04:34 PM | #812 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
6th August 2022, 05:40 PM | #813 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
6th August 2022, 10:06 PM | #814 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 29,368
|
Well, if we add more Parishes to the mix, we could chant "UP-A USA!"
|
__________________
Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting. |
|
6th August 2022, 10:45 PM | #815 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,306
|
|
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
7th August 2022, 03:15 AM | #816 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: St Aines
Posts: 1,121
|
You will still need constituencies to elect individual members of whichever house. And like the UK, you will still end up with non-representative voting (see below) results unless you have a very honest body setting up the constituencies to avoid gerrymandering and so on, or possibly some form of PR.
You will also end up with a very centralised government, possibly starving the various constituencies/counties of funds. UK results, last election. See what I mean? |
__________________
If this board is too exciting for you, try my Flickr pages. Warning: may cause narcolepsy! Some people call me 'strange'. I prefer 'unconventional'. But I'm willing to compromise and accept 'eccentric'... |
|
7th August 2022, 04:14 AM | #817 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
7th August 2022, 07:23 AM | #818 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
7th August 2022, 10:33 AM | #819 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
7th August 2022, 10:40 AM | #820 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
7th August 2022, 11:25 AM | #821 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,530
|
Consider my admonition of being afraid of the commoners as along the lines of Churchill's tone when he said, "Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the others."
But add a dash of real worry when considering the you lot elected the prolapsed orange anus. And more fearfully still, the rotten sludge, as up to this very moment, still has a chance (!) at slithering back into the White House. So yeah. It is wise to regard the commoner with at least a jaundiced eye. |
7th August 2022, 11:34 AM | #822 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 24,897
|
Several countries are federations. I think that when a country gets to a certain size, the distance between the national government and the individual citizen gets too big. There must be some kind of intermediate layer, so citizens can still feel they are part of the process.
That said, I honestly think the election systems of the US and partly the UK are insane. Other nations have implemented much more functional systems. However, we must be aware that democracy was never claimed to be the most effective system. It is just the one that has the potential to make people actually feel involved. Hans |
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
|
7th August 2022, 01:05 PM | #823 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,306
|
Gerrymandering does not happen here for a couple of reasons
1. We have is an independent body called the Representation Commission, which consists of seven people made up of four government officials; the Government Statistician, the Surveyor-General, the Chief Electoral Officer, and the Chairperson of the Local Government Commission, plus a representative of the governing party or coalition, and a representative of the opposition bloc, and a chairperson (often a judge) nominated and agreed to by the other members. 2. The Representation Commission must use an official formula which ensures that the size of electorates is determined such that all electorates have approximately the same population (each electorate contains approximately 70,000 people (5m pop/72 electorates), and that each electorate is as near as possible, shaped within the confines of "hard" boundaries such as rivers and coastlines and, where applicable, "soft" boundaries such as provincial and district borders. This prevents the possibility of ending up having the ridiculous, pretzel-like shapes found in many gerrymandered US districts. There is no way that an electorate shape such as this one could ever be generated here.. [image]https://www.dropbox.com/s/cagst4stlrs7jgl/Gerrymander.png?raw=1[/image] 3. The formula does not incorporate voting statistics or party support statistics in determining electorate sizes and boundaries, and the Representation Commission is not allowed to use such statistics. Of course, gerrymandering cannot affect which party becomes the government in any case, because the government is elected by popular vote. If Party "A" gets, say, 55% of the popular vote, it gets 55% of the seats in parliament (66 of the 120) and it becomes the government. |
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
7th August 2022, 01:08 PM | #824 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: St Aines
Posts: 1,121
|
|
__________________
If this board is too exciting for you, try my Flickr pages. Warning: may cause narcolepsy! Some people call me 'strange'. I prefer 'unconventional'. But I'm willing to compromise and accept 'eccentric'... |
|
7th August 2022, 01:22 PM | #825 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
7th August 2022, 01:27 PM | #826 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
7th August 2022, 02:22 PM | #827 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
7th August 2022, 02:24 PM | #828 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
7th August 2022, 02:46 PM | #829 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
Yes. That the US system of government succeeded as a semi-democratic institution here for two hundred and thirty three years is amazing. Most countries that attempted to recreate our form of government failed miserably.
Watch this scene from The West Wing.
|
|||
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
||||
7th August 2022, 03:18 PM | #830 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,451
|
I am not sure what you mean here. According to the Wikipedia page on the 2016 Presidential Election, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U...ntial_election,
Hillary got 65,853,514 votes or 48.2% of the vote. Trump got 62,984,828 votes or 46.1% of the votes cast. Hillary got 2,868,686 more votes than Trump in the 2016 election. Neither candidate got a majority of the vote although Hilary got more votes than Trump. In the 2020 election, see Wikipedia page of 2020 Presidential Election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_U...ntial_election Biden got 81,268,924 votes or 51.3% of the popular vote. Trump got 74,216,154 votes or 46.9% of popular vote. Biden got 7,052,770 more votes than Trump. The very large leap in the number of people voting between the two elections is rather good evidence of just how seriously people took the 2020 election. |
7th August 2022, 03:36 PM | #831 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
7th August 2022, 03:38 PM | #832 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
7th August 2022, 06:02 PM | #833 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,451
|
I misunderstood your comment "Actually, the majority in 2016 against Hillary was 3 million." to mean that you thought that Trump got 3 million more votes than Hillary. I see what you were in fact saying was that the total number of votes for candidates other than Hillary were 3 million more than the votes for Hillary.
Mea Culpa!! |
7th August 2022, 06:08 PM | #834 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
Delete
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
8th August 2022, 11:15 AM | #835 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,530
|
If you have a system that unfairly biases to the minority, but the majority cannot do anything about it, then you do not have a democracy. Or if there does not exist sufficient drive to fix things, then accept the system the nation as a whole is clearly sufficiently satisfied with.
A long time ago a People rose up to establish a better system. Wars were fought over and for it. But since then it seems a general apathy has taken hold, all while an accelerating decline is underway. I'll say it again. A People gets the Government it deserves. |
8th August 2022, 11:31 AM | #836 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,530
|
The take-away here is the brutal fact that the orange excrescence still got not much less than half the electorate on his side. This frightening razor's edge the US has been teetering on for a while now is a phenomenon explicable only by one or more of cement-headed ignorance, anti-democratic fervor, nihilistic obstreporousness and insanity.
|
8th August 2022, 11:49 AM | #837 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
Breaking News.
The January 6 committee is now in possession of more than two years of Alex Jones's text messages that were inadvertently sent by his attorneys to plaintiffs suing him. My question is this. Will they find incriminating evidence in them? |
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
8th August 2022, 11:51 AM | #838 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
I mean sure, but they won't find anything more incriminating then everyone involved openly bragging for a couple of years about doing what they are accused of doing.
At this point the January 6 committee couldn't prove water is wet while water is sitting there going "Lookit how we I am." |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
8th August 2022, 12:16 PM | #839 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,557
|
yes.
it will be another proof that Trump planned Jan 6th to stay in power, using violent groups like the Oath Keepers and using platforms like Jones' to mobilize the Mob to come. Jones seems to have spend money on this, so it's very likely that he expected to, and maybe was, reimbursed - which would be RICO if any Prosecutor wanted to go that way. There might also be communication with Tucker or similar right-wing media Big Names to make sure that the proper Narrative is being promulgated. Mostly, the messages could mean prison for Jones, as they seem to contain illegally obtained medical records of Sandy Hook parents. |
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
8th August 2022, 12:49 PM | #840 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
I haven't seen evidence that they were illegally obtained. I think they were obtained through the disclosure process.
That said, his attorneys look like they are in trouble for how they were handled. A Connecticut judge ordered Alex Jones's lawyer Reynal to explain why he shouldn't be punished for releasing the records. |
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|