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Old 9th June 2015, 11:24 PM   #361
Joecool
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why someone would clean your toilet Under no money system. Money can buy anything, love, power, slave to clean your toilet, but Under no money you cannot do that, you'll live in the real world, the true one, not in a world that some hypocrite kiss your ass for money.
So in other words, society will go backwards. Now we'll be gathering our own food, hunting and having to build our own homes. We'll have to gather firewood and nobody will have time to do anything fun because we'll all be working hard just to survive.

What if I find a way to monopolize the water supply or I have all the cows and chickens or I have all the trees to make lumber? Then you and many others will be kissing my a$$ for water, cows or chickens or trees to make lumber.

Isn't it easier if you scrub my toilets (because you enjoy it) while I practice golf and take pictures of babes in bikinis?
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Old 10th June 2015, 05:59 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why someone would clean your toilet Under no money system. Money can buy anything, love, power, slave to clean your toilet, but Under no money you cannot do that, you'll live in the real world, the true one, not in a world that some hypocrite kiss your ass for money.
Of course you don't have to clean my toilet. You're doing it because that's what you enjoy. Hurry up and finish cleaning all my toilets because a couple of friends of mine need your services also. We'll all be busy doing our work - bikini model photography - while you're doing yours.

Aren't you glad you get to do what you enjoy the most?
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Old 10th June 2015, 08:28 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Of course you don't have to clean my toilet. You're doing it because that's what you enjoy. Hurry up and finish cleaning all my toilets because a couple of friends of mine need your services also. We'll all be busy doing our work - bikini model photography - while you're doing yours.

Aren't you glad you get to do what you enjoy the most?
And after you've finished cleaning RoboTimbo's toilet, Gaetan, please stop by at Astrejurhof to pull all the weeds from the boulevard grass. I'll pay you as soon as I get back from the band rehearsal and wine tasting --

-- Oh, that's right; you don't like money, do you? That's fine. More money for Me to spend on chocolate.
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Old 10th June 2015, 03:01 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
So in other words, society will go backwards. Now we'll be gathering our own food, hunting and having to build our own homes. We'll have to gather firewood and nobody will have time to do anything fun because we'll all be working hard just to survive.

What if I find a way to monopolize the water supply or I have all the cows and chickens or I have all the trees to make lumber? Then you and many others will be kissing my a$$ for water, cows or chickens or trees to make lumber.

Isn't it easier if you scrub my toilets (because you enjoy it) while I practice golf and take pictures of babes in bikinis?
You kiss the ass of your bos to get the 120,000$ job that you have, it's is not because you are smart you have it.
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Old 10th June 2015, 03:55 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You kiss the ass of your bos to get the 120,000$ job that you have, it's is not because you are smart you have it.
You're the one who proposed that people would be doing whatever they pleased. It isn't my fault that it pleases you to clean our toilets while we're off on bikini model photography shoots.
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Old 10th June 2015, 04:01 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You kiss the ass of your bos to get the 120,000$ job that you have, it's is not because you are smart you have it.
Or it could be that I took the time to be educated and worked my way up the ladder to where I'm at now. It had nothing to do with kissing someone's a$$.

YOU proposed this silly no money system. I said nobody will want to clean toilets or do unpleasant tasks. YOU said some people enjoy cleaning toilets and unpleasant tasks.

YOU said people should do what they enjoy so I said I want to play golf and take pictures of bikini models. Now YOU are saying nobody wants to clean my toilets and make my meals.

YOUR system doesn't work.
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Old 10th June 2015, 04:19 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Or it could be that I took the time to be educated and worked my way up the ladder to where I'm at now. It had nothing to do with kissing someone's a$$.

YOU proposed this silly no money system. I said nobody will want to clean toilets or do unpleasant tasks. YOU said some people enjoy cleaning toilets and unpleasant tasks.

YOU said people should do what they enjoy so I said I want to play golf and take pictures of bikini models. Now YOU are saying nobody wants to clean my toilets and make my meals.

YOUR system doesn't work.
Under money system you can pay someone to clean your house but no one will do that Under no money system unless you have a desease because cleaning you house is something you can do yourself and doesnt necessitate any skill'
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Old 10th June 2015, 04:26 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Under money system you can pay someone to clean your house but no one will do that Under no money system unless you have a desease because cleaning you house is something you can do yourself and doesnt necessitate any skill'
I pay someone to come in once a week to clean as I work long hours and travel a good deal. Clearly the money system is far superior than what you have on offer.
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Old 10th June 2015, 04:36 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I pay someone to come in once a week to clean as I work long hours and travel a good deal. Clearly the money system is far superior than what you have on offer.
I guess you have time to read posts and answering it, you have time to clean your house, Under no money systen you won't have to work hard because all unemployed people will have a job because you won't have to wait for investment to pay workers Then the'll be more people at work and less task for each one.
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Old 10th June 2015, 04:56 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I guess you have time to read posts and answering it, you have time to clean your house, Under no money systen you won't have to work hard because all unemployed people will have a job because you won't have to wait for investment to pay workers Then the'll be more people at work and less task for each one.

No - house cleaning will take a back seat to getting food and ensuring that you have fuel to cook and heat with.

Or, you'll end up cleaning my house as I will be able to force you with the firearms I will save.
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Old 10th June 2015, 04:57 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I guess you have time to read posts and answering it, you have time to clean your house, Under no money systen you won't have to work hard because all unemployed people will have a job because you won't have to wait for investment to pay workers Then the'll be more people at work and less task for each one.
I've decided not to. I've decided to spend my money to pay someone to do it instead.
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Old 10th June 2015, 05:25 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I guess you have time to read posts and answering it, you have time to clean your house, Under no money systen you won't have to work hard because all unemployed people will have a job because you won't have to wait for investment to pay workers Then the'll be more people at work and less task for each one.
You have plenty of time to type on the computer so you have plenty of time to get our toilets clean since that's what you enjoy. I have a disease that forces me to photograph bikini models so I can't clean my own toilets. Get busy. Just think how popular you'll be!
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Old 10th June 2015, 06:10 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I guess you have time to read posts and answering it, you have time to clean your house, Under no money systen you won't have to work hard because all unemployed people will have a job because you won't have to wait for investment to pay workers Then the'll be more people at work and less task for each one.
Under a no money system, we'll all be working harder. Just because more people are working doesn't mean production will be greater. The people are aren't working are not working for a reason. They might be disabled, or they lack the skills to work a job, or they might be lazy. There might also be reasons I have not thought of.

I would rather have a money system where I can have the option of paying someone to clean my house s I can do something I enjoy doing.

In YOUR no money system, I have to do all my own work, but I'll have to take the time to gather food and water. In YOUR system, society will regress to a lot of menial tasks.
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Old 10th June 2015, 09:12 PM   #374
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Money is a great equalizer. Although I know how to shingle a roof and have in fact done two small roofs, over the years I've developed musculoskeletal problems that would make it dangerous for 57-year-old Me to climb a 30-foot ladder and redo the top of My 3-storey house. Now I just pick up the phone and get estimates from roofing companies, who employ crews of younger and stronger labourers, and if necessary I phone a contact at the Credit Union where I bank and get a short-term loan to pay the roofers. (The work gets done a lot quicker than I could ever do it, too.)

When work needs to be done, especially if it needs to be done in a hurry because one's roof is damaged and leaking, it is pure folly to attempt to learn multiple skills that others already possess at an expert level. It takes time to develop such expertise, and as such it makes very good sense to hire people who can do the work quickly and well.

No one's going up on My roof for free, Gaetan. They'd be utter fools to endanger themselves with no prospect of adequate compensation, and I for one would not let them.
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Old 10th June 2015, 10:57 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
I have a disease that forces me to photograph bikini models so I can't clean my own toilets.
Another sad case of Litore-Maris-Muliere picturefactio or LMMP, also known as Hasselblad Syndrome.
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Old 11th June 2015, 05:47 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
Another sad case of Litore-Maris-Muliere picturefactio or LMMP, also known as Hasselblad Syndrome.
It's a sad state of affairs but the therapy eases the pain.
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Old 11th June 2015, 06:07 AM   #377
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I don't have the expertise to fix the electric wiring in my house (if I tried it would threaten my life and the life of everyone in my house) and there is no-one who wants to do it for free. What do I do ?

I have not been following this thread. How do I go about acquiring a car ? Do I have to build it myself from components I make myself from raw materials I get myself or do I have to rely on somebody to build cars as a hobby and then give one to me out of the kindness of their heart ?
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Old 11th June 2015, 09:48 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't have the expertise to fix the electric wiring in my house (if I tried it would threaten my life and the life of everyone in my house) and there is no-one who wants to do it for free. What do I do ?

I have not been following this thread. How do I go about acquiring a car ? Do I have to build it myself from components I make myself from raw materials I get myself or do I have to rely on somebody to build cars as a hobby and then give one to me out of the kindness of their heart ?
The no money system works on the principle of the three mousketeers, one for all, all for one, you do something for your neighbours, they'll do something for you.
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Old 11th June 2015, 09:55 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The no money system works on the principle of the three mousketeers, one for all, all for one, you do something for your neighbours, they'll do something for you.
But you seem to balk at cleaning my toilet even though you say there are people who will like doing such jobs. That's just hypocritical.
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Old 11th June 2015, 11:14 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The no money system works on the principle of the three mousketeers, one for all, all for one, you do something for your neighbours, they'll do something for you.
My neighbours lack the necessary skills to assemble a car. I'm also not sure why factory workers in China would make the required electrical sub-assemblies in their millions for people all over the world (and thus denying themselves the ability to clean their own toilets). Your model fails completely unless there are enough people with exactly the right skills everywhere. I'd like an Alfonso Mango but they cannot be grown in the UK. How do I persuade someone in India to grow one for me and various people to carry it to me. How do I reward each of them when I will not meet them ?

I can just about envisage how a money free society would work if everyone was always going to be nice to each other, and if we were all living a subsistence farming lifestyle. Effectively it's what the hippy communes of the 60's and 70's tried to do.

The trouble is, as the hippy communes of the 60's and 70's showed, we're not nice to each other, most quickly descended into conflict as groups formed and tried to grab a greater portion of power and/or important resources. Most people also don't want to live a dirt-poor subsistence farming lifestyle.
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Old 12th June 2015, 08:14 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The no money system works on the principle of the three mousketeers, one for all, all for one, you do something for your neighbours, they'll do something for you.
Well, The Three Musketeers by Dumas is a work of fiction. How fitting in the context of this thread!

The house wiring example brought up by The Don is interesting. I actually do know how to draft a permit and have actually done house wiring, but if a neighbour were to ask Me to wire their house for free I would say "No; I'm too busy." Even though I possess the exact skill that they want, My own projects and whims take priority. I might not even like them well enough to want to help them, and I am entitled to that opinion.

The only possible exception I can see to this is if they wanted to trade Me a fully functional professional-quality alto clarinet and carrying case for My collection, and even if they had one to trade (unlikely, as these are uncommon instruments) I wouldn't just rush over there to start the work because I'm busy with other things.

Gaetan, you seem to think that all people have the potential to be equally good at all things, and that they are somehow obligated to spend their leisure time catering to the needs of others. This is ridiculous. There are millions of people who will never be skilled enough to have anything of value to trade to their neighbours, and millions more whose competencies cannot be traded because they are focused on specific workplaces and industries, or require expensive, specialized and non-portable equipment (MRI machine, CNC lathe, and so on).

People who possess skills are under no obligation to put their own needs aside and go running around day and night to do fix-it jobs for free. This class of competent slaves that you would create are the ones who would actually be "fouled" by your evil system.
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Old 12th June 2015, 12:48 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
Gaetan, you seem to think that all people have the potential to be equally good at all things, and that they are somehow obligated to spend their leisure time catering to the needs of others. This is ridiculous. There are millions of people who will never be skilled enough to have anything of value to trade to their neighbours, and millions more whose competencies cannot be traded because they are focused on specific workplaces and industries, or require expensive, specialized and non-portable equipment (MRI machine, CNC lathe, and so on).

People who possess skills are under no obligation to put their own needs aside and go running around day and night to do fix-it jobs for free. This class of competent slaves that you would create are the ones who would actually be "fouled" by your evil system.
Gaetan seems to think that our world will not change. That everyone will continue to do whatever jobs they have now, and I believe that's why he mistakenly thinks that the world will be unaffected by not having money.

I have a pretty good job with a decent salary and benefits package but if we were to switch to a no money system, I'm not going to do a job with a lot of responsibility and stress to get the same compensation as a guy who flips burgers.

I don't mind doing more and having those responsibilities now because it allows me to live a comfortable life and to save enough for my older years (retirement).
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Old 12th June 2015, 01:56 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
My neighbours lack the necessary skills to assemble a car. I'm also not sure why factory workers in China would make the required electrical sub-assemblies in their millions for people all over the world (and thus denying themselves the ability to clean their own toilets). Your model fails completely unless there are enough people with exactly the right skills everywhere. I'd like an Alfonso Mango but they cannot be grown in the UK. How do I persuade someone in India to grow one for me and various people to carry it to me. How do I reward each of them when I will not meet them ?

I can just about envisage how a money free society would work if everyone was always going to be nice to each other, and if we were all living a subsistence farming lifestyle. Effectively it's what the hippy communes of the 60's and 70's tried to do.

The trouble is, as the hippy communes of the 60's and 70's showed, we're not nice to each other, most quickly descended into conflict as groups formed and tried to grab a greater portion of power and/or important resources. Most people also don't want to live a dirt-poor subsistence farming lifestyle.
The no money system is based on mutual aid, you do some work for your neighbour and they do the same for you, we get organized, ressources are available for all and for free, preservation and free access are two good points to consider. First let's get food for everybody, then education and in a few decade we'll get organized and everything will go well. For what is boring we can make robots for it, it doesn't cost. No need of investment to get people at work, acces to resources are available without money, it is a matter of organization, everything is free, if you need something you go in market and take what you need, no waste, recycling, resources are free, people will be able to build their cities, this is easy when there is no money or barter and resources are available for free. Nowdays few companies control all resources and are available for ones who have money, this is unacceptable, with this system it won't be like that.
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Old 12th June 2015, 03:56 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The no money system is based on mutual aid, you do some work for your neighbour and they do the same for you, we get organized, ressources are available for all and for free, preservation and free access are two good points to consider. First let's get food for everybody, then education and in a few decade we'll get organized and everything will go well. For what is boring we can make robots for it, it doesn't cost. No need of investment to get people at work, acces to resources are available without money, it is a matter of organization, everything is free, if you need something you go in market and take what you need, no waste, recycling, resources are free, people will be able to build their cities, this is easy when there is no money or barter and resources are available for free. Nowdays few companies control all resources and are available for ones who have money, this is unacceptable, with this system it won't be like that.
Your theory sounds easy but it won't work. Who's going to make robots for free? Who's going to gather resources to build homes for free? You keep advocating for a no money world but that means FOR PROFIT companies will cease to exist. There won't be any gas companies exploring for oil and refining it. There won't be Home Depot selling you lumber and construction materials. There won't be any grocery stores giving you food.

You'll have to clean your own toilets and hunt and gather your own food. You'll have to build you own shelter.

I choose the money world.
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Old 12th June 2015, 04:47 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The no money system is based on mutual aid, you do some work for your neighbour and they do the same for you, we get organized, ressources are available for all and for free, preservation and free access are two good points to consider. First let's get food for everybody, then education and in a few decade we'll get organized and everything will go well. For what is boring we can make robots for it, it doesn't cost. No need of investment to get people at work, acces to resources are available without money, it is a matter of organization, everything is free, if you need something you go in market and take what you need, no waste, recycling, resources are free, people will be able to build their cities, this is easy when there is no money or barter and resources are available for free. Nowdays few companies control all resources and are available for ones who have money, this is unacceptable, with this system it won't be like that.
You are better at cleaning toilets than you are at making an argument. Is there a reason that you haven't yet started cleaning our toilets?
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Old 13th June 2015, 06:57 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You kiss the ass of your bos to get the 120,000$ job that you have, it's is not because you are smart you have it.
I'm my own boss - so that's physically impossible.

Any employee who can't understand the goals and motives of the company (ideally those of the boss as well) is a very poor employee. MOST high salary employees are paid well b/c they are substantial CONTRIBUTORS to the company goals.

You're idea that relatively high-pay employees are paid for being sycophants is dead-wrong. Exactly the opposite is true. Employees are highly paid b/c the company want's to keep them and their talents and wants them to stay rather than leave. It's the key employees who's are getting the kisses.

Your attitude, Gaetan is one of a wage-slave, a beggar. You can't advance b/c you fail to understand what motivates others (that applies to your misunderstanding of business and the utility of money as well).
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Old 13th June 2015, 07:27 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The no money system is based on mutual aid, you do some work for your neighbour and they do the same for you, we get organized, ressources are available for all and for free, preservation and free access are two good points to consider.
So you want pure communism. and don't understand why it failed. FWIW Marx's vision had no money, but even the Soviets weren't foolish enough to try that.

You and Marx are/were ignorant of the utility of price signalling. You at least seem to have some moral objection to money as a concept. To me that seems at ludicrous as objecting to 'addition' as a concept.

Your IMAGINATIONS of a world w/o money are simplistic and can't work in reality.


Quote:
First let's get food for everybody,
Yes, let's stop right there and think about that.

So farmer A & B are both magically motivated to work hard all day in the hot sun ? Not reality, but let's allow that.

What happens if they both decide to grow wheat instead of vegetables, since it takes less labor ? That means lots of wheat and no so much vegetables n the market. You go to the store and there is lots of bread and pasta, but no tomato sauce and there is a month-long wait to get one head of lettuce. That is exactly what happened in the Soviet union - waiting lines for basic necessities.

What happens when farmers A&B don't produce wheat at the same cost in fuel& fertilizer&farm machinery ? When each Farmer is given the same allotment farmerA produces 2 tons of wheat and farmerB produces just 1 ton. This means that farmerA is the most efficient producer and that society as a whole is better off supporting farmerA. It also means that farmerB is (for whatever reason) a less efficient producer and that it's quite likely the FarmB resources need to be re-applied to some other purpose.

It may be that farmerB is an incompetent farmer and needs to be replaced. It may be that FarmB has poor land for wheat and he needs to grow some other crop. The reason is irrelevant - we know that FarmerB+FarmB s a poor use of societies fuel & fertilizer for wheat production. We,as a society, should not fund that venture.

The problem w/ the "no money" society is that we have no means to rank & reward these farms&farmers and no means to determine who should get the farming resources.

Worse yet - there is no way to measure market needs and produce in accordance with those. Maybe kale is suddenly the hot new in-demand vegetable. Why is any farmer motivated to take the risk to plane kale unless there is a new reward ? They can make the same 'living' by planting the same as last year.

Just like the Soviet Union - your farms will be inefficient, wasteful of resources and unable to meet market demands.

--

Your constant failure to understand why money is useful is incomprehensible.
Do you even think about this idea.

Last edited by stevea; 13th June 2015 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 13th June 2015, 02:14 PM   #388
Gaetan
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Originally Posted by stevea View Post
So you want pure communism. and don't understand why it failed. FWIW Marx's vision had no money, but even the Soviets weren't foolish enough to try that.

You and Marx are/were ignorant of the utility of price signalling. You at least seem to have some moral objection to money as a concept. To me that seems at ludicrous as objecting to 'addition' as a concept.

Your IMAGINATIONS of a world w/o money are simplistic and can't work in reality.



Yes, let's stop right there and think about that.

So farmer A & B are both magically motivated to work hard all day in the hot sun ? Not reality, but let's allow that.

What happens if they both decide to grow wheat instead of vegetables, since it takes less labor ? That means lots of wheat and no so much vegetables n the market. You go to the store and there is lots of bread and pasta, but no tomato sauce and there is a month-long wait to get one head of lettuce. That is exactly what happened in the Soviet union - waiting lines for basic necessities.

What happens when farmers A&B don't produce wheat at the same cost in fuel& fertilizer&farm machinery ? When each Farmer is given the same allotment farmerA produces 2 tons of wheat and farmerB produces just 1 ton. This means that farmerA is the most efficient producer and that society as a whole is better off supporting farmerA. It also means that farmerB is (for whatever reason) a less efficient producer and that it's quite likely the FarmB resources need to be re-applied to some other purpose.

It may be that farmerB is an incompetent farmer and needs to be replaced. It may be that FarmB has poor land for wheat and he needs to grow some other crop. The reason is irrelevant - we know that FarmerB+FarmB s a poor use of societies fuel & fertilizer for wheat production. We,as a society, should not fund that venture.

The problem w/ the "no money" society is that we have no means to rank & reward these farms&farmers and no means to determine who should get the farming resources.

Worse yet - there is no way to measure market needs and produce in accordance with those. Maybe kale is suddenly the hot new in-demand vegetable. Why is any farmer motivated to take the risk to plane kale unless there is a new reward ? They can make the same 'living' by planting the same as last year.

Just like the Soviet Union - your farms will be inefficient, wasteful of resources and unable to meet market demands.

--

Your constant failure to understand why money is useful is incomprehensible.
Do you even think about this idea.
I told you, Under no money system it is not necessary to make money because everything is free and with a lot of workers available for free and robots it won't be so hard to work on a farm.
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Old 13th June 2015, 04:48 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I told you, Under no money system it is not necessary to make money because everything is free and with a lot of workers available for free and robots it won't be so hard to work on a farm.
It will be easier to be a bikini photographer. Get busy cleaning my toilet.
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Old 13th June 2015, 05:13 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I told you, Under no money system it is not necessary to make money because everything is free and with a lot of workers available for free and robots it won't be so hard to work on a farm.
First of all, Gaetan, no such robots yet exist. It would take literally billions of dollars, if not trillions of dollars, to invent, prototype, test, manufacture and distribute them. It could also take decades to implement them worldwide. There will also be maintenance costs associated with the robots. Who's going to fix them when they break down? How do you transport the repair staff to the farms to fix broken robots? What are you going to use to power the robots? How are you going to instruct the end users in the proper use of the robots?

In a no-money world, people will either do the minimum work necessary to preserve the standard of living for themselves and their own families, or they will simply turn rogue and steal resources from the town commons:
  • Food in the food co-op will go missing in the middle of the night, leaving the shelves empty.
  • There won't be enough firewood for the wood stove, because someone who didn't like being cold took ten times as much as his allotted share and traded a few cords of wood for bootleg alcohol, a gun, and the company of a pretty lady.
  • Anyone with enough weaponry will simply enslave his neighbours and force them to work on his behalf.

Humans are rather set in their ways, Gaetan, and they are unlikely to go along with your mad scheme. Your plan doesn't properly acknowledge that, let alone offer any sensible way to deal with it.
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Old 13th June 2015, 08:19 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I told you, Under no money system it is not necessary to make money because everything is free and with a lot of workers available for free and robots it won't be so hard to work on a farm.
Obviously you didn't understand. Let me translate this into your lingo,
Under no money system no one knows which products to produce nor how to best produce them.

The fundamental problem cannot be solved by automation.
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Old 13th June 2015, 09:18 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
First of all, Gaetan, no such robots yet exist. It would take literally billions of dollars, if not trillions of dollars, to invent, prototype, test, manufacture and distribute them. It could also take decades to implement them worldwide. There will also be maintenance costs associated with the robots. Who's going to fix them when they break down? How do you transport the repair staff to the farms to fix broken robots? What are you going to use to power the robots? How are you going to instruct the end users in the proper use of the robots?
It will cost nothing because in the no money system everything is free and nowdays farm tractors work with GPS for exemple.
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Old 13th June 2015, 09:21 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by stevea View Post
Obviously you didn't understand. Let me translate this into your lingo,
Under no money system no one knows which products to produce nor how to best produce them.

The fundamental problem cannot be solved by automation.
if they know that now why they wouldn'n know it Under no money
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Old 13th June 2015, 09:41 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It will cost nothing because in the no money system everything is free and nowdays farm tractors work with GPS for exemple.
It took money to develop GPS, Gaetan. A lot of money. It didn't just spring into existence in the stores one day. It's also dependent on data it receives from satellites, and if something were to happen to the satellites (for example, if their orbits degraded and they fell out of the sky), GPS would stop working.

Farm equipment is very, very expensive. I just did a search on a brand-new heavy duty tractor, and the base price was nearly $500,000 CDN. That's just a tractor, no tilling or planting or harvesting attachments. No one who produces such equipment is likely to give it away for free just because you want them to. They're certainly not going to invent even more sophisticated equipment if there's no profit in it for them.

I predict that if there are any skilled professionals who bother to continue working in this mythical no-money world, they won't be working on farm machinery. More likely they'll be working on weaponry so that they can crush your regime.
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Old 13th June 2015, 10:01 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
It took money to develop GPS, Gaetan. A lot of money. It didn't just spring into existence in the stores one day. It's also dependent on data it receives from satellites, and if something were to happen to the satellites (for example, if their orbits degraded and they fell out of the sky), GPS would stop working.

Farm equipment is very, very expensive. I just did a search on a brand-new heavy duty tractor, and the base price was nearly $500,000 CDN. That's just a tractor, no tilling or planting or harvesting attachments. No one who produces such equipment is likely to give it away for free just because you want them to. They're certainly not going to invent even more sophisticated equipment if there's no profit in it for them.
I tell you again, Under no money system it is not necessary to make profit because everything is free
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Old 13th June 2015, 10:30 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I tell you again, Under no money system it is not necessary to make profit because everything is free

And we keep telling you, under your no money regime no work outside the gathering of food and fuel will get done.
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Old 13th June 2015, 10:34 PM   #397
Astreja
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I tell you again, Under no money system it is not necessary to make profit because everything is free
And I tell you again, Gaetan: Under a no-money system there will not be any big industry at all. There will be only very small village economies, with no goods travelling long distances, no heavy machinery, no major energy production.

No television, radio or Internet. No new electronic innovations. No new medicines or medical equipment.

No cars, trains or planes due to cessation of fuel production. Sailing ships will be the only vessels capable of crossing the oceans. No more fresh tropical fruit or out-of-season vegetables, because they'll rot by the time they get to distant markets.

Humans will be limited to whatever they can produce with a few simple tools, with whatever skills they possess, using whatever materials they can find within a short distance of their homes. What they produce may not be useful to their neighbours, and what their neighbours produce may not be useful to them.

Your utopia is doomed to fail, because the average person in modern society simply will not put up with it.
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Old 14th June 2015, 04:17 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I tell you again, Under no money system it is not necessary to make profit because everything is free
And that's why you enjoy cleaning toilets but would never have a job as an economist.
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Old 14th June 2015, 06:39 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I tell you again, Under no money system it is not necessary to make profit because everything is free

And we keep telling you, under your no money regime no work outside the gathering of food and fuel will get done.
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Old 14th June 2015, 07:04 PM   #400
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Gaetan, why do you not answer where you get your money from? Will you be the first person to clean my toilets if we switch to your system?
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