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Old 18th December 2014, 08:06 PM   #121
abaddon
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
How often do you plan to reset the game?
Apparently, every time anyone rises above mediocrity.
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Old 18th December 2014, 11:12 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why to not give everybody an equal share and start the Monopoly game all over again.
And what would that accomplish? Eventually, some folks would prosper more than others. Then what? You restart and take away the gains of the successful?

The world isn't a board game. Those who are successful are usually either smarter, harder working or luckier than others. That's life.

What incentive would anyone have to work hard and achieve more if you constantly steal their gains and give it to the lazy and those who don't strive to achieve? You will create the "utopia" society that you wanted.

FYI, FOX created a reality show called Utopia, a society without money. The show was a failure and went off the air in about two months. That should be a clue about your "utopian" society.
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Old 21st December 2014, 02:16 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When one fellow will have all the wealth of the earth, there won't be nothing left for the next 10 billions, you didn't heard about mathematic.
I have a degree in math and call your claim absurd !
Money is just a representation of value, and value is not conserved (zero sum).

In lawful transactions in a free market - the only way to gain money is to offer others even greater value in exchange. Free market transactions necessarily create added net wealth for both parties.


Claiming that others must be poor because some are rich is nothing but envy and classist demagoguery, coupled with a massive failure to understand fundamentals.

Last edited by stevea; 21st December 2014 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 03:18 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by stevea View Post
I have a degree in math and call your claim absurd !
Money is just a representation of value, and value is not conserved (zero sum).

In lawful transactions in a free market - the only way to gain money is to offer others even greater value in exchange. Free market transactions necessarily create added net wealth for both parties.


Claiming that others must be poor because some are rich is nothing but envy and classist demagoguery, coupled with a massive failure to understand fundamentals.
Wealth is accomplish when people work there is no need money to do that and money is a zero sum game when rich have too much means that you got to have poors
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Old 22nd December 2014, 03:51 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Wealth is accomplish when people work there is no need money to do that and money is a zero sum game when rich have too much means that you got to have poors
How much money did Adam and Eve have?
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Old 22nd December 2014, 05:02 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Wealth is accomplish when people work there is no need money to do that and money is a zero sum game when rich have too much means that you got to have poors
Sorry you are wrong. The economy is not a zero sum game.

When the economy is prosperous, everyone's cumulative wealth grows. Some have more and some have less but overall, there is more for everyone.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 05:24 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Sorry you are wrong. The economy is not a zero sum game.

When the economy is prosperous, everyone's cumulative wealth grows. Some have more and some have less but overall, there is more for everyone.
Money is a devise printed in a definite amount, when some got too much means others must have less, simply mathematic. Money doesn't fall from heaven but comes from hell, it doesn't grow.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 05:29 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money is a devise printed in a definite amount, when some got too much means others must have less, simply mathematic. Money doesn't fall from heaven but comes from hell, it doesn't grow.
LOL. This is what weird religion does to your critical thinking skills.

How much money did Adam and Eve have?
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Old 22nd December 2014, 05:31 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money is a devise printed in a definite amount, when some got too much means others must have less, simply mathematic. Money doesn't fall from heaven but comes from hell, it doesn't grow.
If that's your point of view, then Robo Timbo has it right and we should print enough money so everyone can have millions of dollars.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 06:27 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
If that's your point of view, then Robo Timbo has it right and we should print enough money so everyone can have millions of dollars.
Work make value, not money, if you print more money it doesn't mean you'll have more work done, it is just stupid to do that, it just make inflation going.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 06:31 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Work make value, not money, if you print more money it doesn't mean you'll have more work done, it is just stupid to do that, it just make inflation going.
As long as you don't mind being wrong on the internet, your weird religion can dictate your responses at will.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:12 AM   #132
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What you saw during the last election campain was a udge manipulation of electors by the oligarth medias to get rid of what they call the US communist party in order to rise their income tax credit privilege and profit. With this kind of brain wash it seems that you won't see inequality fall down before the end of the world.

Last edited by Gaetan; 23rd December 2014 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 06:04 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What you saw during the last election campain was a udge manipulation of electors by the oligarth medias to get rid of what they call the US communist party in order to rise their income tax credit privilege and profit. With this kind of brain wash it seems that you won't see inequality fall down before the end of the world.
The Communist Party of the USA hasn't been a serious force in US politics since the 20s and 30s, and was never that serious.

The Communist Party of Canada has elected exactly one MP in the 93 years it has been in existence.

Frankly, neither party would be worth the effort needed to reduce their electoral share, their policies do that for them. To mitigate the worst aspects of capitalism doesn't require communism, it requires a simple recognition that if you want to get wealthy you do so by making sure that more people have a good standard of living so they can buy what you produce.

Inequality has been with us forever, recognized many ancient texts with not a call for social leveling in any of them.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 06:17 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
The Communist Party of the USA hasn't been a serious force in US politics since the 20s and 30s, and was never that serious.

The Communist Party of Canada has elected exactly one MP in the 93 years it has been in existence.
People of bad faith always change the words other says. I said:

" what they call the US communist party"

The democrat party is still a right wing capitalist party paying good attention to give a good share to rich.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 06:52 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
People of bad faith always change the words other says. I said:

" what they call the US communist party"

The democrat party is still a right wing capitalist party paying good attention to give a good share to rich.
If you meant the Democrats, then you should have said the Democrats - using words with a particular meaning to represent a completely different concept does not make your argument effective.

I am reminded of why the first lesson in the teaching of Fire Discipline to prospective Gunners is the definition of Fire Discipline - "Fire Discipline is the language of fire control. It consists of words, phrases, rules and conventions that have specific meaning and result in some definite action being taken at the guns." This way we can take ANY gunner, and that gunner will understand what is required and what must happen regardless of which formation they are working with. Very important when large quantities of explosives are needed at a particular place and time. The underlying principle (ensuring comprehension) is equally important when carrying on a discussion.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 08:26 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
If you meant the Democrats, then you should have said the Democrats - using words with a particular meaning to represent a completely different concept does not make your argument effective.

I am reminded of why the first lesson in the teaching of Fire Discipline to prospective Gunners is the definition of Fire Discipline - "Fire Discipline is the language of fire control. It consists of words, phrases, rules and conventions that have specific meaning and result in some definite action being taken at the guns." This way we can take ANY gunner, and that gunner will understand what is required and what must happen regardless of which formation they are working with. Very important when large quantities of explosives are needed at a particular place and time. The underlying principle (ensuring comprehension) is equally important when carrying on a discussion.
What you say is that words have an important meaning, than the words: "What they call" have an important meaning. They mean that some medias use the word communist to treat the democrats because people brain have already been washed to prevent people being communist and they use that program to depreciate the democrat party because of their social aspect.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 08:38 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What you say is that words have an important meaning, than the words: "What they call" have an important meaning. They mean that some medias use the word communist to treat the democrats because people brain have already been washed to prevent people being communist and they use that program to depreciate the democrat party because of their social aspect.
You have that right - the word communist in most US media is used as an insult and to denigrate one's political opposition. That being said, it is obvious in the context of the discussion that that is the case. The % of people who believe that the US Democrats are actual communists are likely about the same as those who believe that we can create a utopian society with no loss of ameneties with minimal if any social coercion simply by abolishing money.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 10:47 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Wealth is accomplish when people work
Yes, there is a value increase (often) when people work, but Marx's "labor theory of value" has been long disproven. Value is always subjective. You can work as hard as you wish making things w/o any demand, and you have no wealth.

Quote:
there is no need money to do that
WRONG! There is a need for money and that's why every large culture has invented some form of money. Money makes trade and exchange more efficient - this has been explained repeatedly in this forum. You fail to understand fundamentals.

Quote:
and money is a zero sum game when rich have too much means that you got to have poors
FAIL! M1 money is in limited supply, but not value or broad money. When we say that Warren Buffet is worth billions we DO NOT mean that he has stacks of green paper stuffed in a vault. You fail to understand fundamentals.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
M1 mMoney is a devise printed in a definite amount,
FTFY, and ... You fail to understand fundamentals.

Quote:
when some got too much means others must have less, simply mathematic.
Only M1 currency, which is NOT how we measure wealth.

Quote:
Money doesn't fall from heaven but comes from hell, it doesn't grow.
But value arises from work, innovation, shortages and trade and does increase.

You really need to learn something before you post agains. Currency is NOT what we mean by wealth. No one with more than a few dollars keeps all their wealth as currency. Trumps ownership of a hotel does not influence the amount of currency in circulation, but it does represent value & wealth. We can build more hotels or iphones or grow more food w/o changing the amount of currency.

Your argument is ridiculous.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 03:15 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You have that right - the word communist in most US media is used as an insult and to denigrate one's political opposition. That being said, it is obvious in the context of the discussion that that is the case. The % of people who believe that the US Democrats are actual communists are likely about the same as those who believe that we can create a utopian society with no loss of ameneties with minimal if any social coercion simply by abolishing money.
This is the not the only argument but the vote at the last election shows that it works out properly
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Old 23rd December 2014, 03:25 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by stevea View Post
Yes, there is a value increase (often) when people work, but Marx's "labor theory of value" has been long disproven. Value is always subjective. You can work as hard as you wish making things w/o any demand, and you have no wealth.



WRONG! There is a need for money and that's why every large culture has invented some form of money. Money makes trade and exchange more efficient - this has been explained repeatedly in this forum. You fail to understand fundamentals.



FAIL! M1 money is in limited supply, but not value or broad money. When we say that Warren Buffet is worth billions we DO NOT mean that he has stacks of green paper stuffed in a vault. You fail to understand fundamentals.



FTFY, and ... You fail to understand fundamentals.



Only M1 currency, which is NOT how we measure wealth.



But value arises from work, innovation, shortages and trade and does increase.

You really need to learn something before you post agains. Currency is NOT what we mean by wealth. No one with more than a few dollars keeps all their wealth as currency. Trumps ownership of a hotel does not influence the amount of currency in circulation, but it does represent value & wealth. We can build more hotels or iphones or grow more food w/o changing the amount of currency.

Your argument is ridiculous.
How can you say that there is an infinite amount of money, like the universe, people can use. Poor doesn't seems to have a piece of it, They don't have money, where is it?
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Old 23rd December 2014, 03:37 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
How can you say that there is an infinite amount of money, like the universe, people can use. Poor doesn't seems to have a piece of it, They don't have money, where is it?
Money doesn't grow on trees. Typically, you get money when you have something of value to sell or barter with. If I own an apple tree, I can sell some apples for money and use the money to buy things I need. Or I can offer myself as labor to earn money so I can use that money to buy things I need.

Maybe you need to figure out how the "poors" can offer something of value so they too, can earn some money.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:14 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
How can you say that there is an infinite amount of money, like the universe, people can use. Poor doesn't seems to have a piece of it, They don't have money, where is it?
So you're saying that your previous argument is ridiculous and we should give everyone millions of dollars instead?
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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:24 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Money doesn't grow on trees..
I am glad that you agree with me and that you know that money is not infinite like the universe. But since you know that you understand now that if poor doesn't have money is because rich are egoists, that's why they go to hell, because they don't share with people in need while if they would be poors they would ask for food, that's their injustice that condemn them, not their sin.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:43 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I am glad that you agree with me and that you know that money is not infinite like the universe. But since you know that you understand now that if poor doesn't have money is because rich are egoists, that's why they go to hell, because they don't share with people in need while if they would be poors they would ask for food, that's their injustice that condemn them, not their sin.
I don't agree with you except that money doesn't grow on trees. Instead of whining and trying to take money away from others, teach the "poors" to offer something of value so they can use that value to earn money. That would be fair to everyone.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:52 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I am glad that you agree with me and that you know that money is not infinite like the universe. But since you know that you understand now that if poor doesn't have money is because rich are egoists, that's why they go to hell, because they don't share with people in need while if they would be poors they would ask for food, that's their injustice that condemn them, not their sin.
You're admitting that your entire argument is based on your own weird religion then?
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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:59 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
I don't agree with you except that money doesn't grow on trees. Instead of whining and trying to take money away from others, teach the "poors" to offer something of value so they can use that value to earn money. That would be fair to everyone.
Your system doesn't work because of your logic and you agree with me, if poors would be rich than there would be more poor to take their places.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 05:31 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your system doesn't work because of your logic and you agree with me, if poors would be rich than there would be more poor to take their places.
The economy isn't a zero sum game where if someone makes money, then someone loses money. If I buy a product and spend money on it, I still can use the product or sell the product. I have something of value.

Smart people can buy something, then turn around and sell it for more. Now you would have two people who made money off the same product.

What you need to do is teach the "poors" how to offer something of value so they can also prosper. That's far more acceptable than stealing it from the rich and giving it to the poor. The US already does this. It's called taxation to fund entitlements and it doesn't work in my opinion. By doing this, you create a class of people who don't contribute much but become a drain on society's resources.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 05:40 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The economy isn't a zero sum game where if someone makes money, then someone loses money. If I buy a product and spend money on it, I still can use the product or sell the product. I have something of value.

Smart people can buy something, then turn around and sell it for more. Now you would have two people who made money off the same product.

What you need to do is teach the "poors" how to offer something of value so they can also prosper. That's far more acceptable than stealing it from the rich and giving it to the poor. The US already does this. It's called taxation to fund entitlements and it doesn't work in my opinion. By doing this, you create a class of people who don't contribute much but become a drain on society's resources.
Since you agree with me that money doesn't fall from tree, which is true, it means that when someone make a profit, others must lose money otherwise money would fall from tree, don't you think so?
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Old 23rd December 2014, 05:49 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Since you agree with me that money doesn't fall from tree, which is true, it means that when someone make a profit, others must lose money otherwise money would fall from tree, don't you think so?
Maybe money does grow on trees. How do you explain that there I more money in the world now than 10 years ago? It must come from somewhere.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 06:04 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Maybe money does grow on trees. How do you explain that there I more money in the world now than 10 years ago? It must come from somewhere.
It comes from debts or loans but it doesn't make any difference because prices rise accordingly so there is more money but 2 dollars means one dollar.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 06:08 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It comes from debts or loans but it doesn't make any difference because prices rise accordingly so there is more money but 2 dollars means one dollar.
That doesn't make any sense. You said if someone makes money then someone else loses money. What does that have to do with debts or loans?
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Old 23rd December 2014, 06:47 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
That doesn't make any sense. You said if someone makes money then someone else loses money. What does that have to do with debts or loans?
It is because that when a do business if i make more money than i lose, it comes from people who lost more money than they made.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 07:17 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It is because that when a do business if i make more money than i lose, it comes from people who lost more money than they made.
You agree that that's an idiotic statement? How many people have to tell you that money isn't a zero sum game?

How much money did Adam and Eve have? You won't answer because it destroys your argument. Thank you for admitting that.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 09:22 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You agree that that's an idiotic statement? How many people have to tell you that money isn't a zero sum game?

How much money did Adam and Eve have? You won't answer because it destroys your argument. Thank you for admitting that.
Money is a zero sum game, if you give a bit of money to the rich who is making all the profit in the Monopoly game it doesn't change the issue of the game, almost all his profit comes from others loss.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 09:29 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You're admitting that your entire argument is based on your own weird religion then?
It seems like he's calling for the revival of the radical Anabaptist Christian sect that led the Munster rebellion back in the 16th century. If you've got four and half hours to spare, Dan Carlin has an excellent podcast on it in his Hardcore History podcast.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 10:03 PM   #156
RoboTimbo
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money is a zero sum game, if you give a bit of money to the rich who is making all the profit in the Monopoly game it doesn't change the issue of the game, almost all his profit comes from others loss.
Repeating your weird religious dogmatism doesn't suddenly make it sane.
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Old 24th December 2014, 10:12 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money is a zero sum game, if you give a bit of money to the rich who is making all the profit in the Monopoly game it doesn't change the issue of the game, almost all his profit comes from others loss.
Money isn't a zero sum game or we would have the same amount of money in the economy just like a monopoly game.

Even in a monopoly game, everyone starts out with money and eventually more and more money comes into the game.

Your arguments are getting bizarre.
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Old 24th December 2014, 12:14 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Money isn't a zero sum game or we would have the same amount of money in the economy just like a monopoly game.

Even in a monopoly game, everyone starts out with money and eventually more and more money comes into the game.

Your arguments are getting bizarre.
They print some money every year but it is not much significative and it goes to rich anyway, no, if there are poors it is because rich have too much, that's the role of the state to take the too much they have and to redistribute the money, if they don't do that there can only be more poor, and that what happen because polititians are servants of the oligarths and are elected by oligarth propaganda an their media.
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Old 24th December 2014, 12:21 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
They print some money every year but it is not much significative and it goes to rich anyway, no, if there are poors it is because rich have too much, that's the role of the state to take the too much they have and to redistribute the money, if they don't do that there can only be more poor, and that what happen because polititians are servants of the oligarths and are elected by oligarth propaganda an their media.
I ran this through the weird religion translator and it still came back as "insane". Do you have any arguments that make sense?
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Old 24th December 2014, 12:35 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
They print some money every year but it is not much significative and it goes to rich anyway, no, if there are poors it is because rich have too much, that's the role of the state to take the too much they have and to redistribute the money, if they don't do that there can only be more poor, and that what happen because polititians are servants of the oligarths and are elected by oligarth propaganda an their media.
Your argument makes no sense. What if someone took away all of Bill Gates money and burned it. Now Bill Gates has no money.

How many poor people are better off?

We already have redistribution of wealth in the US. It's called Medicaid, Food Stamps and Cash Welfare.
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