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Old 21st January 2020, 07:54 AM   #2481
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO Boris Johnson's Dominic Cummings' plan is to leave with no deal and then allow the architects of Brexit to make a killing in the chaos that follows. If I'm right, there's no incentive to even try to do a deal though there may be some mileage in appearing to do one.
I don't see it. You've had people on left and right being in favour of leaving the EEC, and then the EU for decades. Is the claim that Tony Ben, Nigel Lawson and all the other Eurosceptics were cynically motivated, or that despite the long history of Euroscepticism, the people behind the leave campaign in fact agree that remain are right and pretend not to?
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Old 21st January 2020, 07:58 AM   #2482
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Is there anything more disturbingly stupid than a senior Brexiteer?

A Brexit Party MEP just complained that leaving the EU leaves UK with no representation
Bloody hell, why didn't anyone bring this up before now?
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Old 21st January 2020, 08:00 AM   #2483
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Most of the time to reach the current deal was spent pissing about and delaying until the clock ran down. We shall see if the situation is transformed, but I am doubtful.
It's the same people in charge... What's that definition of insanity again....
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Old 21st January 2020, 08:03 AM   #2484
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's the same people in charge... What's that definition of insanity again....
The situation in the UK government has changed quite significantly. The tendency however is always going to be to require a crisis, artificial or organic, to force a conclusion.
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Old 21st January 2020, 08:52 AM   #2485
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't see it. You've had people on left and right being in favour of leaving the EEC, and then the EU for decades. Is the claim that Tony Ben, Nigel Lawson and all the other Eurosceptics were cynically motivated, or that despite the long history of Euroscepticism, the people behind the leave campaign in fact agree that remain are right and pretend not to?
Tony Benn, Nigel Lawson and the run of the mill Eurosceptics aren't the architects of Brexit any more than the millions of people in Northern towns and cities who have voted to cut off their noses to spite their faces.

The architects of Brexit are people like Dominic Cummings, Aaron Banks, James Dyson and Crispin Odey. These people aren't proposing Brexit for the greater good or even out of a (IMO misplaced) sense of wanting to recover sovereignty. Instead they see an opportunity to make personal capital (both financial and/or political) out of the turmoil that will follow a no-deal Brexit knowing full well that the British public will end up actually carrying the cost.
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Old 21st January 2020, 09:34 AM   #2486
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Tony Benn, Nigel Lawson and the run of the mill Eurosceptics aren't the architects of Brexit any more than the millions of people in Northern towns and cities who have voted to cut off their noses to spite their faces.

The architects of Brexit are people like Dominic Cummings, Aaron Banks, James Dyson and Crispin Odey. These people aren't proposing Brexit for the greater good or even out of a (IMO misplaced) sense of wanting to recover sovereignty. Instead they see an opportunity to make personal capital (both financial and/or political) out of the turmoil that will follow a no-deal Brexit knowing full well that the British public will end up actually carrying the cost.
This^
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Old 21st January 2020, 10:06 AM   #2487
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Tony Benn, Nigel Lawson and the run of the mill Eurosceptics aren't the architects of Brexit any more than the millions of people in Northern towns and cities who have voted to cut off their noses to spite their faces.

The architects of Brexit are people like Dominic Cummings, Aaron Banks, James Dyson and Crispin Odey. These people aren't proposing Brexit for the greater good or even out of a (IMO misplaced) sense of wanting to recover sovereignty. Instead they see an opportunity to make personal capital (both financial and/or political) out of the turmoil that will follow a no-deal Brexit knowing full well that the British public will end up actually carrying the cost.
It seems simpler to suppose they broadly believe in Brexit.
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Old 21st January 2020, 11:33 AM   #2488
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It seems simpler to suppose they broadly believe in Brexit.
A brexit proposed by the very people they claim to think are anathema to their ideology?
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Old 21st January 2020, 11:42 AM   #2489
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
A brexit proposed by the very people they claim to think are anathema to their ideology?
Cummings, Banks, and Gove were never going to produce a glorious socialist Brexit that EU rules prevented.

I can believe that Milne and Corbyn could have some edgy 6th-form radical's idea that a disaster is what is needed to bring about said socialist utopia - but that's stupid, and would still mean they were culpable for the suffering and damage they knew they'd be enabling.
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Old 21st January 2020, 11:42 AM   #2490
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Further Education worth tens of billions, currently under serious threat from Brexit, numerous language schools have already closed as a direct result.
Nobody cares.
Fishing is worth virtually nothing it employs fewer people than Poundland.
Brexiters utterly obsessed with it.
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Old 21st January 2020, 11:48 AM   #2491
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June Mummery Brexit Party MEP Tweeted

@june_mummery
I can't believe that after supporting #UKfisheries and #coastalcommunities, @BorisJohnson will abandon them to unchecked #EU control for 11 months. With less than two weeks to go before #Brexit, it is paramount we have an oversight mechanism on EU fisheries policy.
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Old 21st January 2020, 02:34 PM   #2492
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
June Mummery Brexit Party MEP Tweeted

@june_mummery
I can't believe that after supporting #UKfisheries and #coastalcommunities, @BorisJohnson will abandon them to unchecked #EU control for 11 months. With less than two weeks to go before #Brexit, it is paramount we have an oversight mechanism on EU fisheries policy.

Perhaps we could, you know, stay in the EU?
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Old 21st January 2020, 06:23 PM   #2493
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Is there anything more disturbingly stupid than a senior Brexiteer?

A Brexit Party MEP just complained that leaving the EU leaves UK with no representation
From that link a link to a story about an MP who what's to have brexit AND still have MEPs .
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Old 21st January 2020, 06:24 PM   #2494
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Perhaps we could, you know, stay in the EU?
Too late. Boris has already knocked down that foam wall with a bulldozer. No going back now
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Old 21st January 2020, 07:41 PM   #2495
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I'm a bit confused; maybe you can clarify a few things.
- Does the UK leave the EU at the end of this month? If so, under what agreement?
- If not, when and under what agreement?
- What happens at the end of the year? A final, this time really final exit? If not, what?

Just a general summary would be a big help. Thanks.
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Old 21st January 2020, 10:53 PM   #2496
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I'm a bit confused; maybe you can clarify a few things.
- Does the UK leave the EU at the end of this month? If so, under what agreement?
- If not, when and under what agreement?
- What happens at the end of the year? A final, this time really final exit? If not, what?

Just a general summary would be a big help. Thanks.
We officially leave, meaning we are not a member of the EU after 11pm 31 Jan. We then enter a transition period until 31 Dec 2020. During transition we have all the obligations and benefits of membership but no say in the running of the EU. After 31 Dec we are no longer in transition so no longer have the obligations and benefits. Unless we agree something else before then we will default to trading on WTO terms, will not have access to EU airspace, will lose Europol info on criminals etc. Some of these things are likely to be agreed before 2021.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 03:04 AM   #2497
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Further Education worth tens of billions, currently under serious threat from Brexit, numerous language schools have already closed as a direct result.
Nobody cares.
Fishing is worth virtually nothing it employs fewer people than Poundland.
Brexiters utterly obsessed with it.
Well, not obsessed enough for Farrage to have attended the meetings on it. But yeah.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 03:35 AM   #2498
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
We officially leave, meaning we are not a member of the EU after 11pm 31 Jan. We then enter a transition period until 31 Dec 2020. During transition we have all the obligations and benefits of membership but no say in the running of the EU. After 31 Dec we are no longer in transition so no longer have the obligations and benefits. Unless we agree something else before then we will default to trading on WTO terms, will not have access to EU airspace, will lose Europol info on criminals etc. Some of these things are likely to be agreed before 2021.
Boris made a hard bargain with that deal. All the obligations for a year but no say in them.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 03:54 AM   #2499
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Perhaps we could, you know, stay in the EU?
It's not like Farage was on the EU fisheries committee but never attended any of the meetings.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 04:18 AM   #2500
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I we give them their ******* bongs at eleven o'clock do you think they'd notice if we withdrew A50 at five to? We could all agree to keep saying "Yes you're right, nothing changed it was all Project Fear" until they've found something else to be angry about.

Oh, sorry, I forgot our current Captain and his mates have insured the Titanic for double it's value, stuffed the first class lifeboats with Bolly and caviar, locked down the lower decks and are full speed ahead for the iceburg.

Excellent analogy! The UK and Breixt is indeed the Titanic meets iceberg.

I for one have jumped ship just in time

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I AGREE


...and the band played on. That'll be Boris clinging on to the very end, I'm sure.

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Old 22nd January 2020, 06:12 AM   #2501
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's not like Farage was on the EU fisheries committee but never attended any of the meetings.
I think he went to 1 out of 40
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Old 22nd January 2020, 08:41 AM   #2502
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So the question is more like "how can we now boycott the committees when we're no longer in them?", then.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 08:47 AM   #2503
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I want to know who the Brexit Party are going to turn their back on. That's what I want to know.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 08:56 AM   #2504
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I want to know who what the Brexit Party are going to turn their back on. That's what I want to know.
Reality ?
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Old 22nd January 2020, 09:01 AM   #2505
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MPs have rejected all Lords amendments to the Brexit bill:

Quote:
MPs have overwhelmingly rejected all the changes made by peers to the government's Brexit bill and sent the legislation back to the House of Lords.

The Commons overturned five amendments passed by the Lords, including one on unaccompanied refugee children being allowed to join relatives in the UK.

Ministers say they back the principle of the Dubs amendment but the Brexit bill is not the right vehicle for it.

The bill will pass between the Houses until both sides agree on the wording.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51210602
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:14 AM   #2506
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And we can see how much more influence we are going to have. Want a USA trade deal, then don't use Huawei, want a USA trade deal, then don't tax revenues in your country else we will put tariffs on British cars...

We've not even left and the USA knows it can push us around without consequences.


If only we was part of the world's biggest economy so we couldn't be pushed around....
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Old 22nd January 2020, 02:30 PM   #2507
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I think he went to 1 out of 40
1 out of 42 if I remember correctly and am annoying pedantic.


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Old 22nd January 2020, 04:36 PM   #2508
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
MPs have rejected all Lords amendments to the Brexit bill:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51210602
The Lords have already approved the Bill without any of the amendments. So now it just requires royal assent. They decided not to engage in a ping pong match.

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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:39 PM   #2509
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Is there anything more disturbingly stupid than a senior Brexiteer?

A Brexit Party MEP just complained that leaving the EU leaves UK with no representation
Bloody hell, why didn't anyone bring this up before now?

Now, be fair. She can hardly be held to task. How could anyone possibly have anticipated such an utterly unrelated side-effect?

It's like a butterfly flapping its wings in China and causing a hurricane in the Atlantic. Totally unpredictable.

Just be grateful she noticed when she did, so she could pass the word and it wouldn't come as such an epiphany to all the other Brexiters.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:05 AM   #2510
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Boris Johnson has announced that Brexit is done

Quote:
Boris Johnson has said the UK has "crossed the Brexit finish line" after Parliament passed legislation implementing the withdrawal deal.

The EU Bill, which paves the way for the country to leave the bloc on 31 January, is now awaiting royal assent.

The PM said the UK could now "move forwards as one" and put "years of rancour and division behind it".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51214761

IMO shades of George W Bush and "Mission Accomplished", the real hard work is just beginning - unless the plan is to exist on WTO terms with the EU for the next few years and simply accept whatever terms the US offers for a trade deal.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 03:40 AM   #2511
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Boris Johnson has announced that Brexit is done



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51214761

IMO shades of George W Bush and "Mission Accomplished", the real hard work is just beginning - unless the plan is to exist on WTO terms with the EU for the next few years and simply accept whatever terms the US offers for a trade deal.
He's from the comfortable class, their idea of saying something has been done means they've told someone else to do it.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 04:08 AM   #2512
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As for the fishing industry

90% of the fish processed in the country comes in on foreign boats and after process is exported to mainland Europe.
Various industry figures, locals MPs and processing businesses around Grimsby (the main fish processing centre) are asking Boris to make Grimsby a special case and remain part of EU for purposes of trade.
Grimsby was a big Brexit voting area in the ref.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 05:10 AM   #2513
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
As for the fishing industry

90% of the fish processed in the country comes in on foreign boats and after process is exported to mainland Europe.
Various industry figures, locals MPs and processing businesses around Grimsby (the main fish processing centre) are asking Boris to make Grimsby a special case and remain part of EU for purposes of trade.
Grimsby was a big Brexit voting area in the ref.
It's almost as if Brexit voters hadn't thought through the implications of their actions.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 06:21 AM   #2514
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's almost as if Brexit voters hadn't thought through the implications of their actions.
They were lied to, extensively.

The billionaire owned press distributed massive misinformation to make uneducated turkeys vote for christmas.


I@m afraid this is the new normal. We're past the tipping point. We're an oligarchy in all but name now.

The most powerful person in the UK is Murdoch.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 07:57 AM   #2515
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
They were lied to, extensively.



The billionaire owned press distributed massive misinformation to make uneducated turkeys vote for christmas.





I@m afraid this is the new normal. We're past the tipping point. We're an oligarchy in all but name now.



The most powerful person in the UK is Murdoch.
Nah, it's still Viscount Rothermer as it has been for many a decade.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 08:42 AM   #2516
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Various industry figures, locals MPs and processing businesses around Grimsby (the main fish processing centre) are asking Boris to make Grimsby a special case and remain part of EU for purposes of trade.
Grimsby was a big Brexit voting area in the ref.
And they can **** right off.
Own it...

If the rest of us have to put up with this **** show, then the bloody places that voted for it can as well.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 08:53 AM   #2517
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And they can **** right off.
Own it...

If the rest of us have to put up with this **** show, then the bloody places that voted for it can as well.
And so say all of us!
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Old 23rd January 2020, 09:35 AM   #2518
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Is there anything more disturbingly stupid than a senior Brexiteer?

A Brexit Party MEP just complained that leaving the EU leaves UK with no representation
That sounded too stupid to be true.

Turns out I was right. The headline badly mischaracterizes her complaint, which is not that they don't have EU representation, but that the EU still has control over UK waters.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 09:53 AM   #2519
Ian Osborne
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That sounded too stupid to be true.

Turns out I was right. The headline badly mischaracterizes her complaint, which is not that they don't have EU representation, but that the EU still has control over UK waters.
Not really. They still should've seen this coming. Also, "Who held them to account before Brexit?" asked June Turnbull. "Nigel Farage only attended one meeting of the Fisheries Committee out of 42."
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Old 23rd January 2020, 10:24 AM   #2520
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Not really. They still should've seen this coming. Also, "Who held them to account before Brexit?" asked June Turnbull. "Nigel Farage only attended one meeting of the Fisheries Committee out of 42."
Was there anything on the agenda of those committee meetings that he personally should have been covering? Also, what makes you think she didn't see this coming? I don't see this in her Tweet. It's hardly a situation that is implicit in Brexit, just the deal that the Brexit party moaned was a bad deal.

Personally, I'd see it as the beginning of the push to maintain pressure to leave for good at the end of the year.

If I was going to attack the Tweet, this quote from Farage about why he didn't attend would be the line I'd take: "There was no legal role, no legislative role in that committee whatsoever, you couldn't do a thing. It was pointless."

Last edited by shuttlt; 23rd January 2020 at 10:34 AM.
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