[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero - Page 68

Captain_Swoop · 1st February 2020, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

The alternative is to just agree to everything the other side wants.

No, it is to negotiate in good faith to reach a mutually acceptable outcome.

SezMe · 1st February 2020, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

Also given its an election year in the USA how much progress will there actually be on a trade deal?

Before the election: None. Zip. Nada.

The Dems are not going to give Trump another trade deal, no matter how bad it is.

After the election, assuming Trump loses, very, very little attention will be focused on foreign trade deals given the YUGE internal problems the USA will be facing after four years of a disastrous administration. BJ will have to get in line.

SezMe · 1st February 2020, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Don't tell me what I think. The sheer impudence and presumptuousness that lies behind this personalised message....

Where'd all the hostility come from? He just asked a question.

ceptimus · 1st February 2020, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

Talking tough only works if you have leverage and credibility, Boris Johnson has neither.

Yes, which is pretty much what the UK is going to have to do in all its trade negotiations however much Little Englanders stamp their feet and demand special treatment. If the EU, which actually wants a reasonable deal, is playing hardball what do you think the USA and China are going to do?

If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it.

quadraginta · 1st February 2020, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

The "Hold it! Next man makes a move, the ****** gets it" school of negotiation

That is exactly the first thing that came to mind for me.

I even cued up a link to the appropriate clip from YouTube, but I wasn't sure if I'd get in trouble or not for posting it.

What the hell.

Clip from "R' rated movie Blazing Saddles.

[nsfw]

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Captain_Swoop · 1st February 2020, 07:13 PM

John Bolton Tweeted

@AmbJohnBolton
Brexit is done! Happy first full day of UK Independence as they reclaim their sovereignty from the EU. Brexit reflects deeply held views that the British enjoy governing themselves & are done surrendering their interests to the EU bureaucracy
@BorisJohnson

EHocking · 1st February 2020, 08:00 PM

Garage acts like an ******** in his departing speech to the EU parliament.

Yesterday chamber’s vice-president Mairead McGuiness turned off Nigel Farage’s microphone and said: ‘Please sit down, resume your seats, put your flags away and take them with you if you’re leaving now’.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/30/eu-te...7/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

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Darat · 2nd February 2020, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Talking tough to try to secure a good deal. Negotiation 101. Something Theresa May was never prepared to do, but something the EU has done throughout, and will continue to do.

Terrible way to negotiate something like a trade deal, it's a little kids view of business negotiations.

Darat · 2nd February 2020, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

The alternative is to just agree to everything the other side wants.

No. The alternative is to sit down, understand what both you and the "other side" want, understand what is most important for each side, understand where each side can compromise if necessary, and then work with the other side to come up with an agreement that both of you are satisfied with. Now in trade talks it is slightly different in that you start with an agreed deal and are then trying to improve on that deal for both sides.

Vixen · 2nd February 2020, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

The Guardian: Johnson to impose full customs checks on goods from EU – report.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...from-eu-report

Opps...

This will impact greatly on the Just-In-Time business model originating from Japan and which is is now the standard for the car industry (amongst many others, especially online retailers).

Quote:

The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year.

Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line.

The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.

Guardian, article from two years ago.

In other words, manufacturers are going to have to regress to the old-fashioned system of keeping stocks of all the parts, together with making goods in advance of orders so that they are ready to deliver when the orders come in. If they get the forecast wrong, then surely going into liquidation - or, more likely, moving production to a more customs friendly country - will be the outcome.

British cars are extremely popular here in Finland but the car sales market is price sensitive. An increase of the predicted 10% will result in consumers turning to the competitive Italian and Czech market, instead. Honda is a big seller here, too, presumably imported from the production lines in the UK. (The Toyota Varis is the bestseller, I believe.)

Quote:

While 56% of British car exports go to Europe, just 7% of EU exports go the UK. “The UK is an important market but what matters more is protecting the EU single market,” said Hawes.

From the same article, there is the issue of the work force:

Quote:

The industry also fears the impact of new immigration rules for EU nationals. Already 14% of Honda’s 3,500 to 4,000-strong Swindon workforce are from other EU countries, but this is growing fast: of the 600 extra workers hired to build new Civic model last year, 40% were EU workers, as are 30% of the staff at the company’s European HQ in Bracknell.

EU citizens living in the UK didn't even get a vote so I can't see them hanging around for long, anyway.

Amazer · 2nd February 2020, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it.

Sometimes taking a bad deal is better than going with the alternative on offer, like trading on only WTO terms. But that's something that the current batch of Brexiteers seem determined to find out the hard way.

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Vixen · 2nd February 2020, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Where'd all the hostility come from? He just asked a question.

There is a contingent of Amanda Knox fans who follow me around from thread to thread taking snide swipes at me simply because my view differs from theirs on one topic. Grow up, guys!

ceptimus · 2nd February 2020, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Amazer

Sometimes taking a bad deal is better than going with the alternative on offer, like trading on only WTO terms.

Why?

Amazer · 2nd February 2020, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Why?

We'll probably find out why that is in the next couple of years... if the UKgov continues on its present heading. Not really in the mood to explain today.

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Darat · 2nd February 2020, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Why?

Because the "bad" deal is still better than the WTO rules and regulations.

I suspect we are still going to get so much crap from the likes of the Mail and Express talking about "betrayal", and "we voted for Brexit not Init" when we are negotiating deals.

We have already "given up our sovereignty" in regards to trading internationally by signing on to the WTO. Any deal should be considered "bad" only if we end up with something worse than WTO rules.

And sadly it is just too easy for the media to make profits from pushing simplistic, stupid and harmful headlines rather than objective reporting.

Ziggurat · 2nd February 2020, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Talking explicitly about products. Unless the UK explicitly adopts the EU standard (politically difficult because that would make us a "rule taker") then the product in question would have to be recertified for the EU regardless of whether the UK standard was higher, lower or equivalent. Certification is a time consuming and expensive process which may be worthwhile if you're doing millions of pounds worth of business but not if you're a smaller company trying to break into a market.

No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change.

As for small producers, well, you are providing a good argument for why EU membership is a bad deal. You don’t get a break on regulations by being a member.

Lothian · 2nd February 2020, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it.

Pathetic. Remainers have constantly pointed out that any deal will be worse than we currently have and that no deal will leave us on damaging WTO terms. Brexiteers called this 'project fear' and told us Europe needs the UK more than we need the EU. This will be the easiest deal ever. We will have free trade with the EU and it won't cost us a penny because German car makers will insist on it. We will also get better trade deals with the rest of the world.
This is what 17.4m people voted for.
The only foot stamping will come from the betrayed when they realise they have been lied to.

GlennB · 2nd February 2020, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change.

Post-Brexit the raw materials or components might come from sources that were previously non-compliant with EU standards and therefore avoided. But, no doubt, this is why you were careful to say "if the product doesn't change". Has Tesco's frozen chicken casserole 'changed' if it contains chlorine-washed chicken?

If the UK has to observe EU rules on such matters in order to export chicken casseroles then we are accepting their rules. If we don't then the product cannot be exported to the EU.

ceptimus · 2nd February 2020, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Because the "bad" deal is still better than the WTO rules and regulations.

In which case it's not really "bad".

Amazer · 2nd February 2020, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change.

As for small producers, well, you are providing a good argument for why EU membership is a bad deal. You don’t get a break on regulations by being a member.

You still have no clue do you? This has been explained numerous times over the years...

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Garrison · 2nd February 2020, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it.

Ah another 'I know you are what am I?' response from you.

And now you are suggesting not only do we trade on the worst possible terms with the EU but the rest of the world as well if they don't recognize the specialness of the UK, not so much simple as simple-minded.

Originally Posted by ceptimus

In which case it's not really "bad".

Well of course as you, hopefully, understand if its worse than what we have now then yes its bad.

Ziggurat · 2nd February 2020, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Post-Brexit the raw materials or components might come from sources that were previously non-compliant with EU standards and therefore avoided.

Why would they? Only if there’s a cost savings which would offset the regulatory burden.

Quote:

But, no doubt, this is why you were careful to say "if the product doesn't change".

That burden applies to EU producers too, they don’t get a pass on recertification if their products change. You cannot simultaneously argue EU rules are a huge burden when the UK is out but not a huge burden when they are in.

Quote:

If the UK has to observe EU rules on such matters in order to export chicken casseroles then we are accepting their rules. If we don't then the product cannot be exported to the EU.

But now producers have a choice they didn’t have before.

Ziggurat · 2nd February 2020, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Amazer

You still have no clue do you? This has been explained numerous times over the years...

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Even if I assume you are right, this post is still an utter failure, containing no useful information about the subject at hand.

Captain_Swoop · 2nd February 2020, 04:59 AM

Foreign Secretary has told UK diplomats not to “sit next to EU counterparts" at any international meeting or event.

Petty much?

ceptimus · 2nd February 2020, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

And now you are suggesting not only do we trade on the worst possible terms with the EU but the rest of the world as well if they don't recognize the specialness of the UK.

No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO.
Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right.

The Don · 2nd February 2020, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change.

As for small producers, well, you are providing a good argument for why EU membership is a bad deal. You don’t get a break on regulations by being a member.

The products would still have to be explicitly recertified because the UK wouldn't be compliant.

You don't get a break on regulations as a member but you don't have to bear the expense of certification.

Lothian · 2nd February 2020, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO.
Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right.

Got any evidence or is this yet another Brexiteer lie?

Ziggurat · 2nd February 2020, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

The products would still have to be explicitly recertified because the UK wouldn't be compliant.

You don't get a break on regulations as a member but you don't have to bear the expense of certification.

Give me an example of how you think this works, with a specific product certification requirement.

Darat · 2nd February 2020, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

In which case it's not really "bad".

As I posted it depends on your starting point. Compared to WTO it may not be bad, but compared to the old EU deal it may be.

Lothian · 2nd February 2020, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Because the "bad" deal is still better than the WTO rules and regulations.
.

Originally Posted by ceptimus

In which case it's not really "bad".

Jesus, didn't take long for standards to hit Rock bottom. Have brexiteer expectations fallen that far?. Less than a year ago Boris was saying

I say to all the doubters, dude, we are going to energise the country.....We are going to take advantage of all the opportunities it is going to bring in in a new spirit of can-do, and we are once again going to believe in ourselves and what we can achieve."

And now you are setting WTO as the benchmark for good. What happened to getting better deals than we currently have? Where is your can do? Why are you resigned to a worse deal that we have? Why are you dismissing the Brexit campaigners as a bunch of liars? Why do you no longer believe brexit can give us better deals than we had? The easiest deals ever. Where has you optimisation and belief gone?

Lukraak_Sisser · 2nd February 2020, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO.
Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right.

No deals will be offered that are worse than WTO, but the main choice will be between the 'worse than now but still ok, but you need to keep following the EU rules' deal from the EU, the 'bend over and take it' deal from Trump or WTO.

All of which will be worse than the current deals, as the UK has severely weakened its position in the international market.
And since the first option will go agains brexit jingoism as 'betrayal', you're about to bend over and take it.

Lothian · 2nd February 2020, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

No deals will be offered that are worse than WTO

Of course they won't. However repeat it enough and then the brexit lemmings will then see WTO or a marginally better deal as a fantastic result.

jimbob · 2nd February 2020, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Of course negotiation 101 works a lot better from a strong position, and the UK does not have that.
But sure, threaten to harm your economy a lot. I'm sure that will work better this time.

I have for a long time thought this is the Johnson's attempted negotiating approach:
In case you are unfamiliar with this scene - the language is NSFW.

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ETA: The link works when I preview the post but not when I read my post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_JOGmXpe5I

Darat · 2nd February 2020, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Jesus, didn't take long for standards to hit Rock bottom. Have brexiteer expectations fallen that far?. Less than a year ago Boris was saying

I say to all the doubters, dude, we are going to energise the country.....We are going to take advantage of all the opportunities it is going to bring in in a new spirit of can-do, and we are once again going to believe in ourselves and what we can achieve."

And now you are setting WTO as the benchmark for good. What happened to getting better deals than we currently have? Where is your can do? Why are you resigned to a worse deal that we have? Why are you dismissing the Brexit campaigners as a bunch of liars? Why do you no longer believe brexit can give us better deals than we had? The easiest deals ever. Where has you optimisation and belief gone?

I think we will see a form of schizophrenia. Anything better than WTO will be be portrayed as a betrayal, as "brexit in name only" because of course it will mean we've agreed to something with the EU which by definition has to mean it is bad., rather than "it's a better deal than WTO".

Captain_Swoop · 2nd February 2020, 06:47 AM

When diplomats sitting alongside diplomats from EU countries is seen as a bad thing, any kind of deal at all with the EU will be seen as a betrayal.

The Don · 2nd February 2020, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Give me an example of how you think this works, with a specific product certification requirement.

After Brexit, UK bodies any CE certification done by UK bodies will no longer be recognised. All products will have to recertified by a body recognised by the EU.

Garrison · 2nd February 2020, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Got any evidence or is this yet another Brexiteer lie?

Ceptimus doesn't do evidence, its just him getting in early to blame Remainers when Brexit turns out to be a fiasco.

Garrison · 2nd February 2020, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO.
Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right.

Another lie, the best terms on offer were the ones we already had as a member of the EU, its the Brexiteers who are insisting on worse terms.

abaddon · 2nd February 2020, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

Another lie, the best terms on offer were the ones we already had as a member of the EU, its the Brexiteers who are insisting on worse terms.

I don't think it is actually a lie. Ceptimus really seems to believe that the UK will get better deals with everyone. Because the Empire.

Ziggurat · 2nd February 2020, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

After Brexit, UK bodies any CE certification done by UK bodies will no longer be recognised. All products will have to recertified by a body recognised by the EU.

CE certification is mostly done by the manufacturer, not by any recognized body. The only thing that changes in those cases is the manufacturer will have to transfer the Technical File for the product to somebody within the EU, but there is no additional certification needed. During the transition period, UK certifying bodies will still be valid, we shall see what happens after that. I doubt prior certifications will expire, since I see no provision in the rules for certification expiring if the certifying body simply goes out of business.

1st February 2020, 06:46 PM	#2684
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464	Originally Posted by Garrison Talking tough only works if you have leverage and credibility, Boris Johnson has neither. Yes, which is pretty much what the UK is going to have to do in all its trade negotiations however much Little Englanders stamp their feet and demand special treatment. If the EU, which actually wants a reasonable deal, is playing hardball what do you think the USA and China are going to do? If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464

2nd February 2020, 01:04 AM	#2688
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 102,449	Originally Posted by ceptimus Talking tough to try to secure a good deal. Negotiation 101. Something Theresa May was never prepared to do, but something the EU has done throughout, and will continue to do. Terrible way to negotiate something like a trade deal, it's a little kids view of business negotiations.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

2nd February 2020, 01:10 AM	#2689
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 102,449	Originally Posted by ceptimus The alternative is to just agree to everything the other side wants. No. The alternative is to sit down, understand what both you and the "other side" want, understand what is most important for each side, understand where each side can compromise if necessary, and then work with the other side to come up with an agreement that both of you are satisfied with. Now in trade talks it is slightly different in that you start with an agreed deal and are then trying to improve on that deal for both sides.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

2nd February 2020, 01:10 AM	#2690
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 29,140	Originally Posted by Darat The Guardian: Johnson to impose full customs checks on goods from EU – report. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...from-eu-report Opps... This will impact greatly on the Just-In-Time business model originating from Japan and which is is now the standard for the car industry (amongst many others, especially online retailers). Quote: The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year. Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line. The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day. Guardian, article from two years ago. In other words, manufacturers are going to have to regress to the old-fashioned system of keeping stocks of all the parts, together with making goods in advance of orders so that they are ready to deliver when the orders come in. If they get the forecast wrong, then surely going into liquidation - or, more likely, moving production to a more customs friendly country - will be the outcome. British cars are extremely popular here in Finland but the car sales market is price sensitive. An increase of the predicted 10% will result in consumers turning to the competitive Italian and Czech market, instead. Honda is a big seller here, too, presumably imported from the production lines in the UK. (The Toyota Varis is the bestseller, I believe.) Quote: While 56% of British car exports go to Europe, just 7% of EU exports go the UK. “The UK is an important market but what matters more is protecting the EU single market,” said Hawes. From the same article, there is the issue of the work force: Quote: The industry also fears the impact of new immigration rules for EU nationals. Already 14% of Honda’s 3,500 to 4,000-strong Swindon workforce are from other EU countries, but this is growing fast: of the 600 extra workers hired to build new Civic model last year, 40% were EU workers, as are 30% of the staff at the company’s European HQ in Bracknell. EU citizens living in the UK didn't even get a vote so I can't see them hanging around for long, anyway.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

2nd February 2020, 01:11 AM	#2691
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,711	Originally Posted by ceptimus If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it. Sometimes taking a bad deal is better than going with the alternative on offer, like trading on only WTO terms. But that's something that the current batch of Brexiteers seem determined to find out the hard way. Sent from my SM-M305F using Tapatalk
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,711

1st February 2020, 05:56 PM	#2681
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,765	Originally Posted by ceptimus The alternative is to just agree to everything the other side wants. No, it is to negotiate in good faith to reach a mutually acceptable outcome.

1st February 2020, 05:59 PM	#2682
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,183	Originally Posted by Garrison Also given its an election year in the USA how much progress will there actually be on a trade deal? Before the election: None. Zip. Nada. The Dems are not going to give Trump another trade deal, no matter how bad it is. After the election, assuming Trump loses, very, very little attention will be focused on foreign trade deals given the YUGE internal problems the USA will be facing after four years of a disastrous administration. BJ will have to get in line.

1st February 2020, 06:00 PM	#2683
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,183	Originally Posted by Vixen Don't tell me what I think. The sheer impudence and presumptuousness that lies behind this personalised message.... Where'd all the hostility come from? He just asked a question.

1st February 2020, 07:13 PM	#2686
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,765	John Bolton Tweeted @AmbJohnBolton Brexit is done! Happy first full day of UK Independence as they reclaim their sovereignty from the EU. Brexit reflects deeply held views that the British enjoy governing themselves & are done surrendering their interests to the EU bureaucracy @BorisJohnson

2nd February 2020, 01:44 AM	#2692
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 29,140	Originally Posted by SezMe Where'd all the hostility come from? He just asked a question. There is a contingent of Amanda Knox fans who follow me around from thread to thread taking snide swipes at me simply because my view differs from theirs on one topic. Grow up, guys!
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

2nd February 2020, 02:19 AM	#2693
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464	Originally Posted by Amazer Sometimes taking a bad deal is better than going with the alternative on offer, like trading on only WTO terms. Why?
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464

2nd February 2020, 02:26 AM	#2694
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,711	Originally Posted by ceptimus Why? We'll probably find out why that is in the next couple of years... if the UKgov continues on its present heading. Not really in the mood to explain today. Sent from my SM-M305F using Tapatalk
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,711

2nd February 2020, 03:44 AM	#2695
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 102,449	Originally Posted by ceptimus Why? Because the "bad" deal is still better than the WTO rules and regulations. I suspect we are still going to get so much crap from the likes of the Mail and Express talking about "betrayal", and "we voted for Brexit not Init" when we are negotiating deals. We have already "given up our sovereignty" in regards to trading internationally by signing on to the WTO. Any deal should be considered "bad" only if we end up with something worse than WTO rules. And sadly it is just too easy for the media to make profits from pushing simplistic, stupid and harmful headlines rather than objective reporting.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

2nd February 2020, 04:36 AM	#2696
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,662	Originally Posted by The Don Talking explicitly about products. Unless the UK explicitly adopts the EU standard (politically difficult because that would make us a "rule taker") then the product in question would have to be recertified for the EU regardless of whether the UK standard was higher, lower or equivalent. Certification is a time consuming and expensive process which may be worthwhile if you're doing millions of pounds worth of business but not if you're a smaller company trying to break into a market. No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change. As for small producers, well, you are providing a good argument for why EU membership is a bad deal. You don’t get a break on regulations by being a member.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd February 2020, 04:39 AM	#2697
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 17,507	Originally Posted by ceptimus If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it. Pathetic. Remainers have constantly pointed out that any deal will be worse than we currently have and that no deal will leave us on damaging WTO terms. Brexiteers called this 'project fear' and told us Europe needs the UK more than we need the EU. This will be the easiest deal ever. We will have free trade with the EU and it won't cost us a penny because German car makers will insist on it. We will also get better trade deals with the rest of the world. This is what 17.4m people voted for. The only foot stamping will come from the betrayed when they realise they have been lied to.
	Last edited by Lothian; 2nd February 2020 at 04:40 AM.

2nd February 2020, 04:50 AM	#2698
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 27,984	Originally Posted by Ziggurat No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change. Post-Brexit the raw materials or components might come from sources that were previously non-compliant with EU standards and therefore avoided. But, no doubt, this is why you were careful to say "if the product doesn't change". Has Tesco's frozen chicken casserole 'changed' if it contains chlorine-washed chicken? If the UK has to observe EU rules on such matters in order to export chicken casseroles then we are accepting their rules. If we don't then the product cannot be exported to the EU.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

2nd February 2020, 04:53 AM	#2699
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464	Originally Posted by Darat Because the "bad" deal is still better than the WTO rules and regulations. In which case it's not really "bad".
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464

2nd February 2020, 04:54 AM	#2700
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,711	Originally Posted by Ziggurat No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change. As for small producers, well, you are providing a good argument for why EU membership is a bad deal. You don’t get a break on regulations by being a member. You still have no clue do you? This has been explained numerous times over the years... Sent from my SM-M305F using Tapatalk
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,711

2nd February 2020, 04:54 AM	#2701
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,794	Originally Posted by ceptimus If the deal on offer is a bad one, then the UK doesn't accept it, and trades instead under WTO rules. This applies to all countries (and protectionist trading blocs) that the UK negotiates with. This is very simple and obvious: only the petulant foot-stamping remainers seem unable to understand it. Ah another 'I know you are what am I?' response from you. And now you are suggesting not only do we trade on the worst possible terms with the EU but the rest of the world as well if they don't recognize the specialness of the UK, not so much simple as simple-minded. Originally Posted by ceptimus In which case it's not really "bad". Well of course as you, hopefully, understand if its worse than what we have now then yes its bad.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX Last edited by Garrison; 2nd February 2020 at 04:56 AM.

2nd February 2020, 04:57 AM	#2702
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,662	Originally Posted by GlennB Post-Brexit the raw materials or components might come from sources that were previously non-compliant with EU standards and therefore avoided. Why would they? Only if there’s a cost savings which would offset the regulatory burden. Quote: But, no doubt, this is why you were careful to say "if the product doesn't change". That burden applies to EU producers too, they don’t get a pass on recertification if their products change. You cannot simultaneously argue EU rules are a huge burden when the UK is out but not a huge burden when they are in. Quote: If the UK has to observe EU rules on such matters in order to export chicken casseroles then we are accepting their rules. If we don't then the product cannot be exported to the EU. But now producers have a choice they didn’t have before.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd February 2020, 04:59 AM	#2703
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,662	Originally Posted by Amazer You still have no clue do you? This has been explained numerous times over the years... Sent from my SM-M305F using Tapatalk Even if I assume you are right, this post is still an utter failure, containing no useful information about the subject at hand.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd February 2020, 04:59 AM	#2704
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,765	Foreign Secretary has told UK diplomats not to “sit next to EU counterparts" at any international meeting or event. Petty much?

2nd February 2020, 05:00 AM	#2705
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464	Originally Posted by Garrison And now you are suggesting not only do we trade on the worst possible terms with the EU but the rest of the world as well if they don't recognize the specialness of the UK. No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO. Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,464

2nd February 2020, 05:02 AM	#2706
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,400	Originally Posted by Ziggurat No it wouldn’t. It’s already been certified to EU standards. It’s the same product. It doesn’t need to get recertified if the product doesn’t change. As for small producers, well, you are providing a good argument for why EU membership is a bad deal. You don’t get a break on regulations by being a member. The products would still have to be explicitly recertified because the UK wouldn't be compliant. You don't get a break on regulations as a member but you don't have to bear the expense of certification.

2nd February 2020, 05:05 AM	#2707
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 17,507	Originally Posted by ceptimus No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO. Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right. Got any evidence or is this yet another Brexiteer lie?

2nd February 2020, 05:07 AM	#2708
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,662	Originally Posted by The Don The products would still have to be explicitly recertified because the UK wouldn't be compliant. You don't get a break on regulations as a member but you don't have to bear the expense of certification. Give me an example of how you think this works, with a specific product certification requirement.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd February 2020, 05:15 AM	#2709
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 102,449	Originally Posted by ceptimus In which case it's not really "bad". As I posted it depends on your starting point. Compared to WTO it may not be bad, but compared to the old EU deal it may be.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

2nd February 2020, 05:18 AM	#2710
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 17,507	Originally Posted by Darat Because the "bad" deal is still better than the WTO rules and regulations. . Originally Posted by ceptimus In which case it's not really "bad". Jesus, didn't take long for standards to hit Rock bottom. Have brexiteer expectations fallen that far?. Less than a year ago Boris was saying I say to all the doubters, dude, we are going to energise the country.....We are going to take advantage of all the opportunities it is going to bring in in a new spirit of can-do, and we are once again going to believe in ourselves and what we can achieve." And now you are setting WTO as the benchmark for good. What happened to getting better deals than we currently have? Where is your can do? Why are you resigned to a worse deal that we have? Why are you dismissing the Brexit campaigners as a bunch of liars? Why do you no longer believe brexit can give us better deals than we had? The easiest deals ever. Where has you optimisation and belief gone?

2nd February 2020, 05:58 AM	#2711
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,527	Originally Posted by ceptimus No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO. Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right. No deals will be offered that are worse than WTO, but the main choice will be between the 'worse than now but still ok, but you need to keep following the EU rules' deal from the EU, the 'bend over and take it' deal from Trump or WTO. All of which will be worse than the current deals, as the UK has severely weakened its position in the international market. And since the first option will go agains brexit jingoism as 'betrayal', you're about to bend over and take it.

2nd February 2020, 06:16 AM	#2712
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 17,507	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser No deals will be offered that are worse than WTO Of course they won't. However repeat it enough and then the brexit lemmings will then see WTO or a marginally better deal as a fantastic result.
	Last edited by Lothian; 2nd February 2020 at 07:40 AM.

2nd February 2020, 06:30 AM	#2714
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 102,449	Originally Posted by Lothian Jesus, didn't take long for standards to hit Rock bottom. Have brexiteer expectations fallen that far?. Less than a year ago Boris was saying I say to all the doubters, dude, we are going to energise the country.....We are going to take advantage of all the opportunities it is going to bring in in a new spirit of can-do, and we are once again going to believe in ourselves and what we can achieve." And now you are setting WTO as the benchmark for good. What happened to getting better deals than we currently have? Where is your can do? Why are you resigned to a worse deal that we have? Why are you dismissing the Brexit campaigners as a bunch of liars? Why do you no longer believe brexit can give us better deals than we had? The easiest deals ever. Where has you optimisation and belief gone? I think we will see a form of schizophrenia. Anything better than WTO will be be portrayed as a betrayal, as "brexit in name only" because of course it will mean we've agreed to something with the EU which by definition has to mean it is bad., rather than "it's a better deal than WTO".
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2nd February 2020, 06:47 AM	#2715
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,765	When diplomats sitting alongside diplomats from EU countries is seen as a bad thing, any kind of deal at all with the EU will be seen as a betrayal.

2nd February 2020, 06:54 AM	#2716
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,400	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Give me an example of how you think this works, with a specific product certification requirement. After Brexit, UK bodies any CE certification done by UK bodies will no longer be recognised. All products will have to recertified by a body recognised by the EU.

2nd February 2020, 07:02 AM	#2717
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,794	Originally Posted by Lothian Got any evidence or is this yet another Brexiteer lie? Ceptimus doesn't do evidence, its just him getting in early to blame Remainers when Brexit turns out to be a fiasco.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

2nd February 2020, 07:04 AM	#2718
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,794	Originally Posted by ceptimus No. Exactly the opposite. I'm suggesting that we trade on the best possible terms on offer. If the offered terms are worse than WTO then we stick with WTO. Remainers are now adopting a masochist stance where they want us to accept terms that will make things as bad as possible: they want the country to suffer just to prove that the remainers were right. Another lie, the best terms on offer were the ones we already had as a member of the EU, its the Brexiteers who are insisting on worse terms.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX