[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero - Page 83

Darat · 20th May 2020, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No need to over-think things.

Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area.

It is all very simple!

Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile.

And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit.

Dave Rogers · 20th May 2020, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit.

Since I wouldn't bother expecting an accuracy better than about 10% when estimating distances, I tend not to bother which I use.

Dave

shuttlt · 20th May 2020, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No need to over-think things.

Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area.

It is all very simple!

I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits.

Dave Rogers · 20th May 2020, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits.

Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5.

Dave

shuttlt · 20th May 2020, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5.

Dave

It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom.

Dave Rogers · 20th May 2020, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom.

I make that 611.7 hectare-microns.

Dave

shuttlt · 20th May 2020, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

I make that 611.7 hectare-microns.

Dave

Decimal fractions are a continental perversion.

Ziggurat · 20th May 2020, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Earthborn

Cuneiform numerals are super simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylo...iform_numerals

This system is referred to as "base 60", but it's really not. Numbers up to 60 are really represented by a mixture of base 6 and base 10 numerals. These are alternated in a repeating fashion, forming a sort of super-structure of base 60, but it directly decomposes into alternating 6-10 base. It's not a true base 60 where there are 60 unique characters.

Wudang · 20th May 2020, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Do I? Gosh. Here's me been using metres since the 70's and I still have to do that? Shame on me.

lomiller · 20th May 2020, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

Quite.
There are plenty of jobs that the employer cannot afford to pay high wages, and the current wages are not sufficient for the local workforce to want to do the job (either by the nature of the job, or how things like benefits work, or a mix).

What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value.

3point14 · 20th May 2020, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value.

I always figure that if your business doesn't make enough money to pay your essential employees enough to live on you literally don't have a business, you have a charity masquerading as a business.

I'll except early startups from this. Maybe.

abaddon · 20th May 2020, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I have zero problems calculating the metric scale. Although the four-minute mile sounds so much less romantic when put in metres. Who cares about an odd couple of inches or centimetres when judging social distance?

Great. I work with ease with both. Now what are the advantages of imperial measure over metric.

Or shall we start posting speed limits on the road in units of furlongs per fortnight? That is a perfectly valid imperial unit of speed.

Delphic Oracle · 20th May 2020, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I always figure that if your business doesn't make enough money to pay your essential employees enough to live on you literally don't have a business, you have a charity masquerading as a business.

I'll except early startups from this. Maybe.

A lot of this relies on "rational actors" though. Not referring to your perspective exclusively, mind you.

I have caught glimpses of this mythical creature on occasion in the wild. The bulk of my experience with them is only in clinical settings :9.

I like trash/sanitation as a go-to example of how disconnected we are from giving fair approximation of value to the service.

Giant trucks squeezing down tightly packed old residential streets. People performing enormous feats of athletic prowess for hours on end (that would have most Americans wheezing with chest pains in 10 minutes). Then an entire reclamation plant process that absolutely involves material physics and biological sciences.

I'm not saying the entry level needs a degree. But certainly a healthy respect for the processes on par with a research assistant doing data entry.

Do they know what it means or how to interpret it? Perhaps not.

Should they be able to adhere to process, exercise care in accuracy, maybe form an intuitive sense of patterns leading true or false? Absolutely.

Even high cost of living areas the average seems to be about $40/mo. (£32.68) per family to stick 2 bags of solid waste on the curb every week and never worry about it again.

Calculate your own time in sorting the trash into a dozen groupings, hauling it to a dump, checking in on the scales, proceeding around the facility to the dozen piles, checking back out on on the scales, and returning home.

Let's say it's half the cost that way. $20/mo (£16.34). Assume a month of your trash, how long will what I described above take you?

At 2.5 hours, you're getting down to minimum wage territory already.

End result: One has to assume their own time and resources worthless in order to declare the same of someone else's.

ETA: sorry for the U.S. figures in a U.K. discussion, I've added appropriate currency equivalents. Our federal minimum wage is $7.25 (£5.92). High cost of living areas are around $11/hr. (£9)

quadraginta · 20th May 2020, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Because you end up with a long string of decimal points!

Imagine if time was decimalised. 12:37 would become a nightmare 12.616666666666.

That depends on how much precision you are after. 12.62 hours is plenty good if all you are after is the nearest minute.

If you want seconds then even with HMS you still need to add two more digits. And to get beyond that you have to switch to decimal anyway.

************************************************

Consider 'seasonal hours'. The day has twenty four hours. Sunrise to sunset gets twelve of them. Sunset to sunrise gets the other twelve.

Yes. The hours were different lengths depending on the time of year, and the length of an hour was rarely the same at night as it was in the daytime.

And yet, this was the system that entire cultures used for many generations, and it really hasn't been all that long since it fell out of favor completely.

That's just one example. It's all a matter of what you are used to.

Tolls · 21st May 2020, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value.

Except all UK governments want a degree of food production.

We either bin our food production and simply, as you imply, produce high end food only (or change land use entirely) and import everything we really eat, or possibly reduce our food standards...which is something the current government seems hell-bent on forcing on us when it comes to a US deal.

The next couple of years will be interesting for farming.

Captain_Swoop · 21st May 2020, 02:41 AM

Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.

The Don · 21st May 2020, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.

Yes, but now we've left the EU we can control those non-EU migrants as opposed to when we were in the EU and we were compelled to have open borders with every country.

Captain_Swoop · 21st May 2020, 07:03 AM

In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats.

Typical comments this morning

"The RNLI should be disbanded as they're acting like a taxi service for illegal immigrants"

"The RNLI are aiding and abetting criminals who are trying to illegally enter our country"

"RNLI should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting criminals who are illegally entering our country".

"The RNLI are a registered charity I would urge people not to donate anymore."

"The RNLI traitors are still escorting dinghies and boats full of illegal immigrants into our country"

"RNLI Treason! Boycott the RNLI, govt should act"

The Don · 21st May 2020, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats.

<snipped horrible comments>

That's why I give Twitter a wide berth (and why I used to give certain pubs and individuals a wide berth).

Tolls · 21st May 2020, 07:29 AM

That reads like a mix of morons and Russians...

P.J. Denyer · 21st May 2020, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.

This was always going to be the irony of "Brexit for Racists", we'll be exchanging those most culturally and superficially similar to ourselves for the very people they really object to. You can only assume they thought Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis would flood here?

SezMe · 21st May 2020, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.

Isn't that expected. If it's clear the UK is going to restrict immigration then those who might want to come to the UK some time in the future will stop dithering and make the move while it's still possible.

Greebo · 23rd May 2020, 07:26 AM

Very late reply to this

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Priti Patel has announced that if you earn under £25,600 you're basically unskilled, a second class citizen and of no value to society.

My daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS.

She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19.

The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding.

Mojo · 23rd May 2020, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Greebo

Very late reply to thisMy daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS.

She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19.

The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding.

It’s OK, that had already been replied to:

Originally Posted by shuttlt

This view of the world seems to be purely left wing.

If you are only commanding £25,600, society has already passed what ever judgement there may be to pass. By definition the role is not one with a labour shortage and a high demand for the work to be performed. If you are going to have any sort of needs based immigration model, surely people with skills that are not in demand are the people not to bring in. There is no moral judgement about your worth as a person, or your skill level or anything else.

Pixel42 · 23rd May 2020, 08:04 AM

Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs.

Mojo · 23rd May 2020, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs.

Those will be fine as long as they all guarantee to work 57-hour weeks.

P.J. Denyer · 23rd May 2020, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs.

But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right...

Ziggurat · 23rd May 2020, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right...

Your understanding of capitalism must be shallow indeed.

It's hard to fill those jobs because it doesn't pay a lot, because the system can't support paying care workers a lot. It would be easy to fill the jobs if the pay was high, but there's not enough money available to make that happen. The fact that it's a low skill job also helps keep wages down.

jimbob · 23rd May 2020, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile.

And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit.

Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years.

Mongrel · 25th May 2020, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years.

I as taught metric but real life used imperial, so I was mostly confused. I prefer metric though as it's less confusing and, IMO, the lauded "You can divide by lots of different numbers" is mostly unnecassary as rounding off to the nearest mm, 5g or 5ml is accurate enough for almost all everyday waork.

Ulf Nereng · 25th May 2020, 04:21 AM

As an aside to the imperial vs metric discussion I'd like to mention the so-called "descriptive" chess notation system which was in use in English speaking countries for far too long. It was still in use in in the eighties, when it was finally abandoned for the much more sensible algebraic notation which was of course invented by the germans a hundred years before the brits finally relented..

Example:

Kkt-KB3 (descriptive notation)
Nf3 (algebraic)

Ulf Nereng · 25th May 2020, 04:22 AM

double

Wudang · 27th May 2020, 07:32 AM

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...andemic/26/05/

Quote:

The most important farming legislation in generations passed its third reading in parliament despite warnings that in a bid to make the UK market pliable for a post-Brexit US trade deal, protections of minimum food safety standards have evaporated, as have safeguards for Britain’s farmers.

Tolls · 27th May 2020, 08:00 AM

Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire.
And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country...

The Don · 27th May 2020, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...andemic/26/05/

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you

Originally Posted by Tolls

Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire.
And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country...

Yes, somehow the farmers will find a way to blame the EU and/or the Labour party and not Brexiteers and the Tory party.

catsmate · 27th May 2020, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

The over-sixties perhaps. The rest of us use the Metric system, or rather the SI.

catsmate · 27th May 2020, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Now what are the advantages of imperial measure over metric.

It appeals to the Little Englanders.

catsmate · 27th May 2020, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats.

Typical comments this morning

"The RNLI should be disbanded as they're acting like a taxi service for illegal immigrants"

"The RNLI are aiding and abetting criminals who are trying to illegally enter our country"

"RNLI should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting criminals who are illegally entering our country".

"The RNLI are a registered charity I would urge people not to donate anymore."

"The RNLI traitors are still escorting dinghies and boats full of illegal immigrants into our country"

"RNLI Treason! Boycott the RNLI, govt should act"

And yet if I organised the rounding up of such people and had them dropped into the Atlantic I'd be the bad person...

3point14 · 27th May 2020, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you

Yes, somehow the farmers will find a way to blame the EU and/or the Labour party and not Brexiteers and the Tory party.

Actually, I don't think it matters.

Lots of MPs who made noise about this being a bad idea before the election voted cheerfully for it now.

People have short memories. They'll have forgotten about it the next time Boris has to hide in a fridge.

catsmate · 27th May 2020, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

No, I'm not. there may be a similar footnote there, but I am definitely remembering the section in "Green & Pleasant Land" which I read some time before "Good Omens" was written.

It does sound like something Marcus Rowland would write and he contributed to GAPL/

20th May 2020, 06:07 AM	#3281
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 102,509	Originally Posted by Vixen No need to over-think things. Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought. Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea. Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area. It is all very simple! Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile. And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

20th May 2020, 06:11 AM	#3282
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,344	Originally Posted by Darat And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit. Since I wouldn't bother expecting an accuracy better than about 10% when estimating distances, I tend not to bother which I use. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

20th May 2020, 06:20 AM	#3283
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,131	Originally Posted by Vixen No need to over-think things. Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought. Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea. Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area. It is all very simple! I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits.
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,131

20th May 2020, 06:38 AM	#3284
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,344	Originally Posted by shuttlt I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits. Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

20th May 2020, 06:52 AM	#3285
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,131	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5. Dave It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom.
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,131

20th May 2020, 07:04 AM	#3286
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,344	Originally Posted by shuttlt It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom. I make that 611.7 hectare-microns. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

20th May 2020, 07:25 AM	#3287
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,131	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers I make that 611.7 hectare-microns. Dave Decimal fractions are a continental perversion.
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,131	Last edited by shuttlt; 20th May 2020 at 07:29 AM.

20th May 2020, 08:17 AM	#3288
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,736	Originally Posted by Earthborn Cuneiform numerals are super simple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylo...iform_numerals This system is referred to as "base 60", but it's really not. Numbers up to 60 are really represented by a mixture of base 6 and base 10 numerals. These are alternated in a repeating fashion, forming a sort of super-structure of base 60, but it directly decomposes into alternating 6-10 base. It's not a true base 60 where there are 60 unique characters.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

20th May 2020, 08:45 AM	#3289
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,571	Originally Posted by Vixen Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea. Do I? Gosh. Here's me been using metres since the 70's and I still have to do that? Shame on me.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

20th May 2020, 09:06 AM	#3290
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,409	Originally Posted by Tolls Quite. There are plenty of jobs that the employer cannot afford to pay high wages, and the current wages are not sufficient for the local workforce to want to do the job (either by the nature of the job, or how things like benefits work, or a mix). What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

20th May 2020, 09:12 AM	#3291
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 21,277	Originally Posted by lomiller What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value. I always figure that if your business doesn't make enough money to pay your essential employees enough to live on you literally don't have a business, you have a charity masquerading as a business. I'll except early startups from this. Maybe.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 21,277	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

20th May 2020, 09:37 AM	#3292
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,499	Originally Posted by Vixen I have zero problems calculating the metric scale. Although the four-minute mile sounds so much less romantic when put in metres. Who cares about an odd couple of inches or centimetres when judging social distance? Great. I work with ease with both. Now what are the advantages of imperial measure over metric. Or shall we start posting speed limits on the road in units of furlongs per fortnight? That is a perfectly valid imperial unit of speed.
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

20th May 2020, 10:11 AM	#3293
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 6,247	Originally Posted by 3point14 I always figure that if your business doesn't make enough money to pay your essential employees enough to live on you literally don't have a business, you have a charity masquerading as a business. I'll except early startups from this. Maybe. A lot of this relies on "rational actors" though. Not referring to your perspective exclusively, mind you. I have caught glimpses of this mythical creature on occasion in the wild. The bulk of my experience with them is only in clinical settings :9. I like trash/sanitation as a go-to example of how disconnected we are from giving fair approximation of value to the service. Giant trucks squeezing down tightly packed old residential streets. People performing enormous feats of athletic prowess for hours on end (that would have most Americans wheezing with chest pains in 10 minutes). Then an entire reclamation plant process that absolutely involves material physics and biological sciences. I'm not saying the entry level needs a degree. But certainly a healthy respect for the processes on par with a research assistant doing data entry. Do they know what it means or how to interpret it? Perhaps not. Should they be able to adhere to process, exercise care in accuracy, maybe form an intuitive sense of patterns leading true or false? Absolutely. Even high cost of living areas the average seems to be about $40/mo. (£32.68) per family to stick 2 bags of solid waste on the curb every week and never worry about it again. Calculate your own time in sorting the trash into a dozen groupings, hauling it to a dump, checking in on the scales, proceeding around the facility to the dozen piles, checking back out on on the scales, and returning home. Let's say it's half the cost that way. $20/mo (£16.34). Assume a month of your trash, how long will what I described above take you? At 2.5 hours, you're getting down to minimum wage territory already. End result: One has to assume their own time and resources worthless in order to declare the same of someone else's. ETA: sorry for the U.S. figures in a U.K. discussion, I've added appropriate currency equivalents. Our federal minimum wage is $7.25 (£5.92). High cost of living areas are around $11/hr. (£9)
	Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 20th May 2020 at 10:46 AM.

20th May 2020, 03:08 PM	#3294
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Vixen Because you end up with a long string of decimal points! Imagine if time was decimalised. 12:37 would become a nightmare 12.616666666666. That depends on how much precision you are after. 12.62 hours is plenty good if all you are after is the nearest minute. If you want seconds then even with HMS you still need to add two more digits. And to get beyond that you have to switch to decimal anyway. ************************************************ Consider 'seasonal hours'. The day has twenty four hours. Sunrise to sunset gets twelve of them. Sunset to sunrise gets the other twelve. Yes. The hours were different lengths depending on the time of year, and the length of an hour was rarely the same at night as it was in the daytime. And yet, this was the system that entire cultures used for many generations, and it really hasn't been all that long since it fell out of favor completely. That's just one example. It's all a matter of what you are used to.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 20th May 2020 at 03:09 PM.

21st May 2020, 01:06 AM	#3295
Tolls Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by lomiller What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value. Except all UK governments want a degree of food production. We either bin our food production and simply, as you imply, produce high end food only (or change land use entirely) and import everything we really eat, or possibly reduce our food standards...which is something the current government seems hell-bent on forcing on us when it comes to a US deal. The next couple of years will be interesting for farming.

21st May 2020, 02:41 AM	#3296
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,866	Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.

21st May 2020, 03:20 AM	#3297
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,448	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration. Yes, but now we've left the EU we can control those non-EU migrants as opposed to when we were in the EU and we were compelled to have open borders with every country.

21st May 2020, 07:03 AM	#3298
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,866	In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats. Typical comments this morning "The RNLI should be disbanded as they're acting like a taxi service for illegal immigrants" "The RNLI are aiding and abetting criminals who are trying to illegally enter our country" "RNLI should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting criminals who are illegally entering our country". "The RNLI are a registered charity I would urge people not to donate anymore." "The RNLI traitors are still escorting dinghies and boats full of illegal immigrants into our country" "RNLI Treason! Boycott the RNLI, govt should act"

21st May 2020, 07:26 AM	#3299
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,448	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats. <snipped horrible comments> That's why I give Twitter a wide berth (and why I used to give certain pubs and individuals a wide berth).

21st May 2020, 07:29 AM	#3300
Tolls Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229	That reads like a mix of morons and Russians...

21st May 2020, 08:52 AM	#3301
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,739	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration. This was always going to be the irony of "Brexit for Racists", we'll be exchanging those most culturally and superficially similar to ourselves for the very people they really object to. You can only assume they thought Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis would flood here?
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,739	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

21st May 2020, 04:13 PM	#3302
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,183	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration. Isn't that expected. If it's clear the UK is going to restrict immigration then those who might want to come to the UK some time in the future will stop dithering and make the move while it's still possible.

23rd May 2020, 07:26 AM	#3303
Greebo Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 271	Very late reply to this Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Priti Patel has announced that if you earn under £25,600 you're basically unskilled, a second class citizen and of no value to society. My daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS. She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19. The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding.

23rd May 2020, 07:52 AM	#3304
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 36,003	Originally Posted by Greebo Very late reply to thisMy daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS. She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19. The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding. It’s OK, that had already been replied to: Originally Posted by shuttlt This view of the world seems to be purely left wing. If you are only commanding £25,600, society has already passed what ever judgement there may be to pass. By definition the role is not one with a labour shortage and a high demand for the work to be performed. If you are going to have any sort of needs based immigration model, surely people with skills that are not in demand are the people not to bring in. There is no moral judgement about your worth as a person, or your skill level or anything else.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 23rd May 2020 at 07:54 AM.

23rd May 2020, 08:04 AM	#3305
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 14,685	Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

23rd May 2020, 08:21 AM	#3306
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 36,003	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs. Those will be fine as long as they all guarantee to work 57-hour weeks.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

23rd May 2020, 09:33 AM	#3307
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,739	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs. But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right...
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,739	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

23rd May 2020, 01:52 PM	#3308
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,736	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right... Your understanding of capitalism must be shallow indeed. It's hard to fill those jobs because it doesn't pay a lot, because the system can't support paying care workers a lot. It would be easy to fill the jobs if the pay was high, but there's not enough money available to make that happen. The fact that it's a low skill job also helps keep wages down.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

23rd May 2020, 02:18 PM	#3309
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 26,130	Originally Posted by Darat Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile. And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit. Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

25th May 2020, 04:02 AM	#3310
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,138	Originally Posted by jimbob Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years. I as taught metric but real life used imperial, so I was mostly confused. I prefer metric though as it's less confusing and, IMO, the lauded "You can divide by lots of different numbers" is mostly unnecassary as rounding off to the nearest mm, 5g or 5ml is accurate enough for almost all everyday waork.
	__________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer

25th May 2020, 04:21 AM	#3311
Ulf Nereng Muse Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 652	As an aside to the imperial vs metric discussion I'd like to mention the so-called "descriptive" chess notation system which was in use in English speaking countries for far too long. It was still in use in in the eighties, when it was finally abandoned for the much more sensible algebraic notation which was of course invented by the germans a hundred years before the brits finally relented.. Example: Kkt-KB3 (descriptive notation) Nf3 (algebraic)

25th May 2020, 04:22 AM	#3312
Ulf Nereng Muse Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 652	double
	Last edited by Ulf Nereng; 25th May 2020 at 04:23 AM.

27th May 2020, 07:32 AM	#3313
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,571	https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...andemic/26/05/ Quote: The most important farming legislation in generations passed its third reading in parliament despite warnings that in a bid to make the UK market pliable for a post-Brexit US trade deal, protections of minimum food safety standards have evaporated, as have safeguards for Britain’s farmers.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

27th May 2020, 08:00 AM	#3314
Tolls Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229	Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire. And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country...

27th May 2020, 08:05 AM	#3315
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,448	Originally Posted by Wudang https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...andemic/26/05/ I'm shocked, shocked I tell you Originally Posted by Tolls Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire. And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country... Yes, somehow the farmers will find a way to blame the EU and/or the Labour party and not Brexiteers and the Tory party.