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Old 8th July 2020, 05:20 PM   #1
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Weather question

There may be a simple explanation as to why the weather patterns for Italy for example are comparable to perhaps Charleston SC while its latitude is close to New York. Maybe I should say the weather in Italy is comparable to California both of which border oceans on the west. But the Atlantic is in no way comparable to the Atlantic.
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Old 8th July 2020, 06:48 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There may be a simple explanation as to why the weather patterns for Italy for example are comparable to perhaps Charleston SC while its latitude is close to New York. Maybe I should say the weather in Italy is comparable to California both of which border oceans on the west. But the Atlantic is in no way comparable to the Atlantic.
I think that in order to answer your question you'll have to define what you mean by"weather patterns". Seasonal temperatures, rainfall, and etc.

You might want to take a look at:
K%C3%B6ppen_Climate_ClassificationWP to get some ideas.
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Old 8th July 2020, 06:57 PM   #3
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The weather on the two coasts of America is affected by the ocean currents. Umm, clockwise north if the equator. So NYC gets warm water from the Caribbean, Californian gets cooler water from the Arctic. The Mediterranean is too small for that phenomenon.
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Old 9th July 2020, 09:32 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The weather on the two coasts of America is affected by the ocean currents. Umm, clockwise north if the equator. So NYC gets warm water from the Caribbean, Californian gets cooler water from the Arctic. The Mediterranean is too small for that phenomenon.
Which does not really explain why "the weather in Italy is comparable to California" as asked in the OP.
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Old 9th July 2020, 02:08 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There may be a simple explanation as to why the weather patterns for Italy for example are comparable to perhaps Charleston SC while its latitude is close to New York. Maybe I should say the weather in Italy is comparable to California both of which border oceans on the west. But the Atlantic is in no way comparable to the Atlantic.
What in the blue blazes of hell ever made you think climatology could produce a "simple" explanation, let alone actual "answer"?

You're not "missing one"... meteorology alone is as much art as science (I was taught some vs. studying it, degree-wise) or else we'd be on/near the verge of "weather control".
We're not. I expect that's gonna be Sci-fi territory for another century or so (it's gonna take some monsterous global hardware).

Fun to speculate though, if that's all you need.
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Old 9th July 2020, 02:28 PM   #6
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate
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Old 9th July 2020, 02:29 PM   #7
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ETA: As a layman... I worked alongside and with the very latest Crays at NASA/AMES back when (me in flight they in fluid dynamics) and that were time loaned out to meteorology as available. If our understanding of meterology has surpassed our available processing power (I doubt it) we'd still need decades to process the data models and reduce the unknown variable to the mere hundreds (thousands more likely).
Weather be complex.
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Old 9th July 2020, 04:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
ETA: As a layman... I worked alongside and with the very latest Crays at NASA/AMES back when (me in flight they in fluid dynamics) and that were time loaned out to meteorology as available. If our understanding of meterology has surpassed our available processing power (I doubt it) we'd still need decades to process the data models and reduce the unknown variable to the mere hundreds (thousands more likely).
Weather be complex.
Yup. And the models always have exceeded capacity of the computing power available way back to the first mathematical forecast by Lewis Fry Richardson in about 1922. The forecast will be better with smaller grids, smaller steps and faster processing. At anytime the race is between the time to make the forecast and the quality of the forecast.
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Old 9th July 2020, 04:26 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Note the use of the Köppen Climate Classifications.
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Old 9th July 2020, 04:36 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There may be a simple explanation as to why the weather patterns for Italy for example are comparable to perhaps Charleston SC while its latitude is close to New York. Maybe I should say the weather in Italy is comparable to California both of which border oceans on the west. But the Atlantic is in no way comparable to the Atlantic.
If the Atlantic isn't like the Atlantic, what the heck is it like?
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Old 9th July 2020, 05:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There may be a simple explanation as to why the weather patterns for Italy for example are comparable to perhaps Charleston SC while its latitude is close to New York. Maybe I should say the weather in Italy is comparable to California both of which border oceans on the west. But the Atlantic is in no way comparable to the Atlantic.

I was shocked - shocked, I say - when I learned just how far north Europe actually is. My understanding is that it's mostly explained by the warm Atlantic current that moves from the tropics northeast to the Mediterranean.
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Old 9th July 2020, 05:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Which does not really explain why "the weather in Italy is comparable to California" as asked in the OP.
He asked why Italy and California were that same, compared to SC. I told him why Ca is different firm the est coast, and taht the Med lacks this currents. If you two can';t grasp the answer. don't blame me for trolling.
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Old 9th July 2020, 06:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
You're not "missing one"... meteorology alone is as much art as science (I was taught some vs. studying it, degree-wise) or else we'd be on/near the verge of "weather control".
We're not.
I don't think that's true. Not our lack of understanding part, but the part about control. We understand the rotation of the earth pretty darn well, but we can't control that. Why? It's simply too big for us to affect top any significant degree. Weather isn't quite as colossal, but the energies involved are still far in excess of what we have available. Even if we understood it perfectly, I think it would remain basically uncontrollable.
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Old 9th July 2020, 11:09 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I was shocked - shocked, I say - when I learned just how far north Europe actually is. My understanding is that it's mostly explained by the warm Atlantic current that moves from the tropics northeast to the Mediterranean.
Dammit... nothings where I thought it was.
I understand re: Europe in the general thinking. And how the he'll do all you Brits etc survive so far north? Brrr.

Someone find that WW clip of the Cartographers for Social Equality or whatever, especially when they flip the map north for south...
CJ: You can't do that.
Dr. Floxx: Why not?
CJ: Cause it's freakin' me out!

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Old 9th July 2020, 11:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's true. Not our lack of understanding part, but the part about control. We understand the rotation of the earth pretty darn well, but we can't control that. Why? It's simply too big for us to affect top any significant degree. Weather isn't quite as colossal, but the energies involved are still far in excess of what we have available. Even if we understood it perfectly, I think it would remain basically uncontrollable.
Of course it'll remain uncontrollable (forever? maybe so).
Like those CT dolts thinking HAARP was a weather control facility. LOL.
60,000 times larger and maybe you change the annual precip in Anchorage.
But you're just as likely to kill the entire cast of The Deadliest Catch... in a single freak storm.
Hell... you're just as likely to change the weeks weather in Italy. By accident.
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Old 10th July 2020, 04:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There may be a simple explanation as to why the weather patterns for Italy for example are comparable to perhaps Charleston SC while its latitude is close to New York. Maybe I should say the weather in Italy is comparable to California both of which border oceans on the west. But the Atlantic is in no way comparable to the Atlantic.
The simple explanation is that weather is caused by a combination of many different factors, and the latitude of the site in question is just one of these factors.
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Old 10th July 2020, 05:50 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's true. Not our lack of understanding part, but the part about control. We understand the rotation of the earth pretty darn well, but we can't control that. Why? It's simply too big for us to affect top any significant degree. Weather isn't quite as colossal, but the energies involved are still far in excess of what we have available. Even if we understood it perfectly, I think it would remain basically uncontrollable.

While we do have an influence on climate.
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Old 10th July 2020, 06:06 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
While we do have an influence on climate.
Yeah... I deliberately didn't pick at that.

.

And if you keep that ***** as your new avatar another week... we're gonna hunt you down. Should have volunteers a'plenty.
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Old 10th July 2020, 07:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There may be a simple explanation as to why the weather patterns for Italy for example are comparable to perhaps Charleston SC while its latitude is close to New York. Maybe I should say the weather in Italy is comparable to California both of which border oceans on the west. But the Atlantic is in no way comparable to the Atlantic.
Technically that’s a climate question, not a weather question. Weather is the conditions at a specific time or some short period of time. Climate is the average or expected range of weather for a given time period.

Wrt Mediterranean climate it seems there seems to be a few factors at play. It needs to be low enough latitude for warm conditions, nearby ocean/sea which keep temperature s from getting too warm or too cold. The final aspect is the warm summers and wet (er) winters which distinguishes it from desert climates of humid tropical climates. This arises from where you sit relative to the normal location of certain pressure ridges that control where precipitation is likely to occur. The pressure ridged are related to the normal location of the Jet stream and a function of ocean currents, the shape of the continents, temperature difference between the tropics and probably a few more things.

Like monsoon patterns these pressure ridges can be altered by changes in global temperature sending them farther north or south which could change a Mediterranean climate into something else. Eg in California there is a danger a migration of where these ridges occur could take away the “wet winter” associated with Mediterranean climates and change it to a desert climate.
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Old 10th July 2020, 07:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's true. Not our lack of understanding part, but the part about control. We understand the rotation of the earth pretty darn well, but we can't control that. Why? It's simply too big for us to affect top any significant degree. Weather isn't quite as colossal, but the energies involved are still far in excess of what we have available. Even if we understood it perfectly, I think it would remain basically uncontrollable.
Human activity is causing the earths atmosphere to retain an additional ~4*10^22 J every year.
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Old 10th July 2020, 07:58 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Human activity is causing the earths atmosphere to retain an additional ~4*10^22 J every year.
And that's got **** all to do with weather control. To control the weather, you need to be able to control the energy inputs, which means turning them on and off as needed. That's completely different than the question of what effect we're having on the climate as a result of greenhouse gasses. Why would you even bring that up, except as an attempt to derail the thread?
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:01 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Yup. And the models always have exceeded capacity of the computing power available way back to the first mathematical forecast by Lewis Fry Richardson in about 1922. The forecast will be better with smaller grids, smaller steps and faster processing. At anytime the race is between the time to make the forecast and the quality of the forecast.
Well yes. A "forecast" which isn't complete until after the time it's forecasting isn't very useful. Well, it might be useful for testing your models, but not for predicting the weather.
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:15 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's true. Not our lack of understanding part, but the part about control. We understand the rotation of the earth pretty darn well, but we can't control that. Why? It's simply too big for us to affect top any significant degree. Weather isn't quite as colossal, but the energies involved are still far in excess of what we have available. Even if we understood it perfectly, I think it would remain basically uncontrollable.
Sooo...you're saying lobbing nukes at unwanted storms probably won't help? Not even the biggest ever, bestest nukes?
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:20 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Masque View Post
Sooo...you're saying lobbing nukes at unwanted storms probably won't help? Not even the biggest ever, bestest nukes?
Even Slim Pickins just gave you the stink eye.





(but Donald picked up his Sharpie. )
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:27 AM   #25
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Offhand, probably the closest thing to intentional weather control we've done was the changing of farming practices and related land management strategies in response to the Dust Bowl. Some things, such as planting hedges along fences, were intended to reduce the overall windiness of the region, while others were simply to reduce the amount of soil uptake (taking the dust out of dust storms). Obviously, like anthropogenic climate change, this has more to do with climate/weather patterns than, say, creating a rainstorm for a dry area on demand.
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:50 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
Offhand, probably the closest thing to intentional weather control we've done was the changing of farming practices and related land management strategies in response to the Dust Bowl. Some things, such as planting hedges along fences, were intended to reduce the overall windiness of the region, while others were simply to reduce the amount of soil uptake (taking the dust out of dust storms). Obviously, like anthropogenic climate change, this has more to do with climate/weather patterns than, say, creating a rainstorm for a dry area on demand.
I honestly don't know the history of what they did, but it feels like you're trying to be nice and throw them extra credit. Happy to be wrong.
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Old 10th July 2020, 09:37 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
Offhand, probably the closest thing to intentional weather control we've done was the changing of farming practices and related land management strategies in response to the Dust Bowl.
I'd put that under climate control, not weather control. That's actually an easier task.

For weather control I'd say the closest thing we've done is cloud seeding, which kinda works a little bit under just the right circumstances, but... not very impressive.
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Old 10th July 2020, 09:59 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'd put that under climate control, not weather control. That's actually an easier task.

For weather control I'd say the closest thing we've done is cloud seeding, which kinda works a little bit under just the right circumstances, but... not very impressive.
Good distinctions. Changing how much rain/soil erosion you'll deal with in ten years is climate. Minimal but impressive.
Cloud seeding is... embarrassing (at our level).
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Old 10th July 2020, 10:00 AM   #29
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Sorry. But:



Just follow up on Köppen and his Climate Classifications.
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Old 10th July 2020, 10:27 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And that's got **** all to do with weather control. To control the weather, you need to be able to control the energy inputs, which means turning them on and off as needed. That's completely different than the question of what effect we're having on the climate as a result of greenhouse gasses. Why would you even bring that up, except as an attempt to derail the thread?
Your claim was that manipulate energy on a scale that would allow us to control weather. This is false, we do manipulate energy on a scale that would allow it. What we lack is the precise control and the computing power required to achieve a specific result at a point in time.

If we wanted to turn California into a desert, the Amazon into grassland or melt Antarctica, it’s well within out ability to do so given enough lead-time.
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Old 10th July 2020, 10:37 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Your claim was that manipulate energy on a scale that would allow us to control weather. This is false, we do manipulate energy on a scale that would allow it. What we lack is the precise control and the computing power required to achieve a specific result at a point in time.



If we wanted to turn California into a desert, the Amazon into grassland or melt Antarctica, it’s well within out ability to do so given enough lead-time.
You two are just looking for explanation points (that really should be an ISF bbEdit option)... and you're right with your examples. Maybe. But the devastation elsewhere, most certainly unexpected, would be incredible.
And that's how you're both right.
We can do it. We can't control the outcome.
And that's not really control, is it?
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Old 10th July 2020, 10:38 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'd put that under climate control, not weather control. That's actually an easier task.

For weather control I'd say the closest thing we've done is cloud seeding, which kinda works a little bit under just the right circumstances, but... not very impressive.
I would have to research it again, but my understanding is that cloud seeding turned out to just plain not work at all. Also, I do agree about the climate/weather distinction as noted in the tail end of my post.
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Old 10th July 2020, 10:57 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The weather on the two coasts of America is affected by the ocean currents. Umm, clockwise north if the equator. So NYC gets warm water from the Caribbean, Californian gets cooler water from the Arctic. The Mediterranean is too small for that phenomenon.
Yes, and the Atlantic is small enough that even though the current is from the west and north (Gulf Stream and North Atlantic Drift) the water is still warm when it reaches Europe. Even though Europe's latitudes are similar to Canada to Northern US, the climate, until you get quite a ways inland, is significantly warmer than you would find at similar latitudes in North America.
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Old 10th July 2020, 10:58 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Your claim was that manipulate energy on a scale that would allow us to control weather. This is false, we do manipulate energy on a scale that would allow it. What we lack is the precise control and the computing power required to achieve a specific result at a point in time.

If we wanted to turn California into a desert, the Amazon into grassland or melt Antarctica, it’s well within out ability to do so given enough lead-time.
You're talking about "controlling" climate. Which is a dubious proposition. I think "influencing" climate is more accurate.

Controlling weather requires energy inputs that are both acute and precise. Gradually adding energy to the system isn't enough. You have to add a lot of energy quickly, to change the weather. And we simply don't have the resources to add that kind of energy to a localized weather pattern.
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Old 10th July 2020, 11:17 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
You two are just looking for explanation points (that really should be an ISF bbEdit option)... and you're right with your examples. Maybe. But the devastation elsewhere, most certainly unexpected, would be incredible.
And that's how you're both right.
We can do it. We can't control the outcome.
And that's not really control, is it?
Our ability to precisely control weather was never at issue. You even stated as much in your post that spawned the exchange:

[quote=Jim_MDP;13152241]
meteorology alone is as much art as science (I was taught some vs. studying it, degree-wise) or else we'd be on/near the verge of "weather control".
We're not.QUOTE]

What I challenged was the claim that we don’t manipulate energy on the scale required. We can and do change the weather already. What we can’t do very well is decide on specific weather we’d like to have and make it happen, but again the discussion over why not.
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Old 10th July 2020, 11:42 AM   #36
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[quote=lomiller;13153190]Our ability to precisely control weather was never at issue. You even stated as much in your post that spawned the exchange:



Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post

meteorology alone is as much art as science (I was taught some vs. studying it, degree-wise) or else we'd be on/near the verge of "weather control".

We're not.QUOTE]



What I challenged was the claim that we don’t manipulate energy on the scale required. We can and do change the weather already. What we can’t do very well is decide on specific weather we’d like to have and make it happen, but again the discussion over why not.
I'm saying you're both building towards a pedantry fight. I can see it on Trump's weather map... dont even need the Sharpie.




.


Hmm... just hit Quote. Wonder how the post got borked.
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Old 10th July 2020, 12:09 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're talking about "controlling" climate. Which is a dubious proposition. I think "influencing" climate is more accurate.
This is a meaningless distinction. “Control” always has limits, you can’t make a passenger Jet flying 500mph in on direction stop in mid air and go a completely different direction 1 second later. This does not mean the pilot is “influencing it” rather than “controlling it”. Turning the Amazon to grassland or melting Antarctica are things we can decide to do or not do. We, by definition, are in control that outcome.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Controlling weather requires energy inputs that are both acute and precise. Gradually adding energy to the system isn't enough. You have to add a lot of energy quickly, to change the weather.
We are changing weather already without doing any of this. Dictating a specific result is what’s hard not changing the weather. Again though no one is suggesting otherwise.
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Old 10th July 2020, 12:16 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post

Hmm... just hit Quote. Wonder how the post got borked.
I messed up a quote tag and had to go back and edit it. Maybe you responded before I fixed it
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Old 10th July 2020, 12:38 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I messed up a quote tag and had to go back and edit it. Maybe you responded before I fixed it
Thanks. Bbcode is generally caveman level... meaning, even I can do it. A couple passes and I didnt spot the error.
Tough to find a "timing error".

Now that I think about it... I AM a banger (wouldbe drummer). That might explain it.



.

Eta: LL's a pillock... card me, coward.
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Old 10th July 2020, 01:40 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Your claim was that manipulate energy on a scale that would allow us to control weather. This is false, we do manipulate energy on a scale that would allow it. What we lack is the precise control and the computing power required to achieve a specific result at a point in time.
Control. I used that word for a reason. Even your response concedes the point. And again, weather is not climate. Your reference was to climate, not to weather.
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