Dear Users… (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) Part 10 - Page 13

Trebuchet · 12th November 2021, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Well, it was during the workday so "company time"...but I ended up having to work extra hours for no extra pay to do all the work I couldn't do in that time, so I think it worked out to being on my time after all.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Claim overtime, then. At least if they are going to torture you, you should get paid for it.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'm in America, overtime isn't a thing for most people here.

It isn't a thing for most "exempt" (salaried) employees, but is required by law for hourly employees.

Unusually, three of the four places I worked as an engineer paid us overtime, although Boeing was only time plus $6.50, not time-and-a-half.

The Man · 14th November 2021, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It isn't a thing for most "exempt" (salaried) employees, but is required by law for hourly employees.

Unusually, three of the four places I worked as an engineer paid us overtime, although Boeing was only time plus $6.50, not time-and-a-half.

Working the alternating shift schedule here. 12 hr shifts, 3 days on, four days off, four days on, three days off. That's 8 hrs overtime every 2 week pay period.

JoeMorgue · 14th November 2021, 05:11 PM

Sure the "rules" say you have to pay overtime.

The rules also say you can fire anyone at any time for no reason.

So it unpaid overtime can still be an expectation put on salaried employees.

TragicMonkey · 14th November 2021, 09:00 PM

I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly.

Dr. Keith · 14th November 2021, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly.

It is most standard in crap jobs. There are actual definitions for jobs that are exempt from overtime rules, but employers don’t have a lot of incentive to worry about those rules. Especially crappy employers.

arthwollipot · 14th November 2021, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly.

I was a hourly contractor when I was T1. When I received my permanency, I became salaried. In both cases penalty rates applied for working outside regular hours.

Wudang · 15th November 2021, 04:05 AM

I've been on salary since 1984. In the UK we have contracted hours but unofficially you're expected to do that bit extra to get the job done. However we still got paid overtime once it went beyond a cutoff. Twice I've been on call for a few years at a time and got quarter time for that plus double time (in hour units) whenever I was called.

JoeMorgue · 15th November 2021, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly.

I'd bet pretty hard that the general rule is:

- If you work directly for the company you provide IT support for you are probably salaried.

- If you work for a contractor/other distinct business that provides IT support, you are probably hourly.

I'm hourly (plus mileage and a monthly cell phone allowance.)

The Man · 15th November 2021, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly.

I've always been hourly as a technician, again not strictly IT. It was only as a mechanical engineer that I was on salary.

The Man · 15th November 2021, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

It is most standard in crap jobs. There are actual definitions for jobs that are exempt from overtime rules, but employers don’t have a lot of incentive to worry about those rules. Especially crappy employers.

Where I am now I was originally a subcontractor of this subcontractor. When I took the job the pay period was monthly and overtime was only payed OT rate for over 40 hrs a week averaged over the month long pay period. While against state law, I didn't mind as it was still 30% more than I was making before. 5 to 7 years later they started complying with the law which works out to 8 hrs of OT every two weeks. One of the guys always said if he ever left or got fired he'd sue them for the unpaid OT. I don't know if he ever did but it was about a year or so after he left that they started complying with the law. Never did the calculation of 4 hrs at regular rate every two weeks for like 5 to 7 years. I knew what I was agreeing to when I took the job.

Norman Alexander · 15th November 2021, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It isn't a thing for most "exempt" (salaried) employees, but is required by law for hourly employees.

Unusually, three of the four places I worked as an engineer paid us overtime, although Boeing was only time plus $6.50, not time-and-a-half.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

It is most standard in crap jobs. There are actual definitions for jobs that are exempt from overtime rules, but employers don’t have a lot of incentive to worry about those rules. Especially crappy employers.

Yeah, I overlooked this when I made my original comment. US workers are much more at risk, and have few of the pay benefits other countries have as standard. I'm salaried, but all workers, salaried and hourly, in Australia have agreed work hours in legislation. Work beyond that is subject to overtime. This can get complicated for contract work and shift work.

e.g. I work in a public hospital currently, so my employer is the state government. We have an employee "agreement" with the state about working conditions and pay rates (among many other things), including overtime conditions. We also have rates stipulated for non-standard work days, e.g. working on Christmas Day (traditionally triple time).

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I was a hourly contractor when I was T1. When I received my permanency, I became salaried. In both cases penalty rates applied for working outside regular hours.

There you go.

arthwollipot · 15th November 2021, 07:29 PM

Government work is awesome. We have so much job security.

arthwollipot · 16th November 2021, 06:16 PM

Things I Wish More People Would Understand, Part 386: Service Desk operators are Customer Service people, not technicians.

Blue Mountain · 16th November 2021, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Things I Wish More People Would Understand, Part 386: Service Desk operators are Customer Service people, not technicians.

Maybe the technicians are in part 387.

arthwollipot · 16th November 2021, 08:21 PM

Haha I didn't even notice that. I just typed a random number.

catsmate · 17th November 2021, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Haha I didn't even notice that. I just typed a random number.

Your subconscious might disagree.

JoeMorgue · 17th November 2021, 07:28 AM

This is completely non-IT related but over the weekend the cleaning crew waxed all the floors and for the last couple days the buildings have been full of echoing sneaker squeaks and it is rather annoying.

TragicMonkey · 17th November 2021, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This is completely non-IT related but over the weekend the cleaning crew waxed all the floors and for the last couple days the buildings have been full of echoing sneaker squeaks and it is rather annoying.

That's why I can never understand how people can stand to watch basketball. That sound is like nails on a chalkboard to me.

Jack by the hedge · 17th November 2021, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Your subconscious might disagree.

Pray this exchange doesn't get overheard by the telepathy thread just over there.

arthwollipot · 17th November 2021, 05:34 PM

Trebuchet · 17th November 2021, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This is completely non-IT related but over the weekend the cleaning crew waxed all the floors and for the last couple days the buildings have been full of echoing sneaker squeaks and it is rather annoying.

Take off the sneakers so you can slide around on your socks!

Gord_in_Toronto · 17th November 2021, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Take off the sneakers so you can slide around on your socks!

Ah hem. These are IT people. They don't wear socks.

erlando · 18th November 2021, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Ah hem. These are IT people. They don't wear socks.

... Wait, what? Did I miss a memo?

Wudang · 18th November 2021, 03:32 AM

How can you wear mountain boots without socks?

Dr. Keith · 18th November 2021, 05:30 AM

I was assuming they must be argyle tattoos.

jeremyp · 18th November 2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Ah hem. These are IT people. They don't wear socks.

Yes they do - with their sandals.

Wudang · 18th November 2021, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Yes they do - with their sandals.

If they're quiche eaters. Realm programmers wear mountain boots.

arthwollipot · 18th November 2021, 05:13 PM

I just got off a call with a perfectly lovely fellow who had absolutely no clue. He said that I was very good at my job. I was able to answer all his questions and explain everything in ways he could readily understand. I went the extra mile for this person, because he was pleasant and in a good mood. It was a good call.

I mention it here because in our jobs, and in this thread, we have a tendency to complain and vent. We tend to focus on the bad customers. I think it's important for our outlook and sanity to recognise that occasionally, we get good ones too.

alfaniner · 18th November 2021, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

If they're quiche eaters. Realm programmers wear mountain boots.

Which realm?

erlando · 19th November 2021, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I just got off a call with a perfectly lovely fellow who had absolutely no clue. He said that I was very good at my job. I was able to answer all his questions and explain everything in ways he could readily understand. I went the extra mile for this person, because he was pleasant and in a good mood. It was a good call.

I mention it here because in our jobs, and in this thread, we have a tendency to complain and vent. We tend to focus on the bad customers. I think it's important for our outlook and sanity to recognise that occasionally, we get good ones too.

My best experience with a user was when I was making administrative software for doctors (general practitioners). We were actually partly user owned so we had meetings with the user group twice a year. On one of those meetings I had one of the secretaries who used the system as her main tool for doing her job and who I'd interacted with quite a bit on a feature come up to me and say "You know that button you made (collecting some aggregated data about a patient). That saves me an hour of work a day that I can use on patient-facing stuff. I love that button". That about made my year.

arthwollipot · 19th November 2021, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

My best experience with a user was when I was making administrative software for doctors (general practitioners). We were actually partly user owned so we had meetings with the user group twice a year. On one of those meetings I had one of the secretaries who used the system as her main tool for doing her job and who I'd interacted with quite a bit on a feature come up to me and say "You know that button you made (collecting some aggregated data about a patient). That saves me an hour of work a day that I can use on patient-facing stuff. I love that button". That about made my year.

Yeah, I've been in a good mood all day, because of that one call.

Wudang · 19th November 2021, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Which realm?

Sigh.

Gord_in_Toronto · 19th November 2021, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Sigh.

Translation --> "If you have to ask, I'm not telling you".

TragicMonkey · 19th November 2021, 10:19 AM

Ah, the joy of trying to work from home when one's internet speed is down to 8 mbps. Finally fixed itself. It was...not fun. I'm still periodically sending emails to myself to make sure they're going to go through.

Wudang · 20th November 2021, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Translation --> "If you have to ask, I'm not telling you".

I debated claiming it's because I have done a little work with realm on Android but honestly I have no clue how that typo crept in. I suck at typing on phones.

Gord_in_Toronto · 20th November 2021, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

I debated claiming it's because I have done a little work with realm on Android but honestly I have no clue how that typo crept in. I suck at typing on phones.

You didn't have to explain. I did not ask.

Reilly you did not have to.

arthwollipot · 28th November 2021, 08:14 PM

I've just had my competency assessed.

The good news is that I have been officially found to be competent.

Trebuchet · 28th November 2021, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Ah, the joy of trying to work from home when one's internet speed is down to 8 mbps. Finally fixed itself. It was...not fun. I'm still periodically sending emails to myself to make sure they're going to go through.

Remember when 1200 baud was awesome? I do.

Wudang · 29th November 2021, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Remember when 1200 baud was awesome? I do.

1200 baud? Luxury! We had 2 tin cans and a string but it was an internet to us.

a_unique_person · 29th November 2021, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Remember when 1200 baud was awesome? I do.

You could run 10 3270 terminals off it at once

12th November 2021, 11:22 AM	#481
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 34,156	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Well, it was during the workday so "company time"...but I ended up having to work extra hours for no extra pay to do all the work I couldn't do in that time, so I think it worked out to being on my time after all. Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Claim overtime, then. At least if they are going to torture you, you should get paid for it. Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'm in America, overtime isn't a thing for most people here. It isn't a thing for most "exempt" (salaried) employees, but is required by law for hourly employees. Unusually, three of the four places I worked as an engineer paid us overtime, although Boeing was only time plus $6.50, not time-and-a-half.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

14th November 2021, 12:55 PM	#482
The Man Unbanned zombie poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 16,504	Originally Posted by Trebuchet It isn't a thing for most "exempt" (salaried) employees, but is required by law for hourly employees. Unusually, three of the four places I worked as an engineer paid us overtime, although Boeing was only time plus $6.50, not time-and-a-half. Working the alternating shift schedule here. 12 hr shifts, 3 days on, four days off, four days on, three days off. That's 8 hrs overtime every 2 week pay period.
	__________________ BRAINZZZZZZZZ

14th November 2021, 05:11 PM	#483
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 39,957	Sure the "rules" say you have to pay overtime. The rules also say you can fire anyone at any time for no reason. So it unpaid overtime can still be an expectation put on salaried employees.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

14th November 2021, 09:00 PM	#484
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,202	I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

14th November 2021, 09:46 PM	#485
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,050	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly. It is most standard in crap jobs. There are actual definitions for jobs that are exempt from overtime rules, but employers don’t have a lot of incentive to worry about those rules. Especially crappy employers.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

14th November 2021, 10:33 PM	#486
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly. I was a hourly contractor when I was T1. When I received my permanency, I became salaried. In both cases penalty rates applied for working outside regular hours.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

15th November 2021, 04:05 AM	#487
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,548	I've been on salary since 1984. In the UK we have contracted hours but unofficially you're expected to do that bit extra to get the job done. However we still got paid overtime once it went beyond a cutoff. Twice I've been on call for a few years at a time and got quarter time for that plus double time (in hour units) whenever I was called.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

15th November 2021, 06:40 AM	#488
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 39,957	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly. I'd bet pretty hard that the general rule is: - If you work directly for the company you provide IT support for you are probably salaried. - If you work for a contractor/other distinct business that provides IT support, you are probably hourly. I'm hourly (plus mileage and a monthly cell phone allowance.)
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

15th November 2021, 10:42 AM	#489
The Man Unbanned zombie poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 16,504	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly. I've always been hourly as a technician, again not strictly IT. It was only as a mechanical engineer that I was on salary.
	__________________ BRAINZZZZZZZZ

15th November 2021, 10:55 AM	#490
The Man Unbanned zombie poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 16,504	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith It is most standard in crap jobs. There are actual definitions for jobs that are exempt from overtime rules, but employers don’t have a lot of incentive to worry about those rules. Especially crappy employers. Where I am now I was originally a subcontractor of this subcontractor. When I took the job the pay period was monthly and overtime was only payed OT rate for over 40 hrs a week averaged over the month long pay period. While against state law, I didn't mind as it was still 30% more than I was making before. 5 to 7 years later they started complying with the law which works out to 8 hrs of OT every two weeks. One of the guys always said if he ever left or got fired he'd sue them for the unpaid OT. I don't know if he ever did but it was about a year or so after he left that they started complying with the law. Never did the calculation of 4 hrs at regular rate every two weeks for like 5 to 7 years. I knew what I was agreeing to when I took the job.
	__________________ BRAINZZZZZZZZ Last edited by The Man; 15th November 2021 at 10:57 AM.

15th November 2021, 01:44 PM	#491
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by Trebuchet It isn't a thing for most "exempt" (salaried) employees, but is required by law for hourly employees. Unusually, three of the four places I worked as an engineer paid us overtime, although Boeing was only time plus $6.50, not time-and-a-half. Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'm surprised that so many people in this thread seem to be paid hourly. I've been salaried for my entire IT career, from support to programming to unholy combinations of the two to whatever the heck it is I do now. (And those jobs have been across the whole spectrum of fanciness, it's not like they were all highly-paid and boast-worthy, so please don't think I'm being snobby about my frequently crappy jobs. Some of that pay was pretty damn low, it just was never paid by the hour.) I assumed it was just a standard IT industry practice to be salaried and not hourly. Originally Posted by Dr. Keith It is most standard in crap jobs. There are actual definitions for jobs that are exempt from overtime rules, but employers don’t have a lot of incentive to worry about those rules. Especially crappy employers. Yeah, I overlooked this when I made my original comment. US workers are much more at risk, and have few of the pay benefits other countries have as standard. I'm salaried, but all workers, salaried and hourly, in Australia have agreed work hours in legislation. Work beyond that is subject to overtime. This can get complicated for contract work and shift work. e.g. I work in a public hospital currently, so my employer is the state government. We have an employee "agreement" with the state about working conditions and pay rates (among many other things), including overtime conditions. We also have rates stipulated for non-standard work days, e.g. working on Christmas Day (traditionally triple time). Originally Posted by arthwollipot I was a hourly contractor when I was T1. When I received my permanency, I became salaried. In both cases penalty rates applied for working outside regular hours. There you go.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

15th November 2021, 07:29 PM	#492
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Government work is awesome. We have so much job security.
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16th November 2021, 06:16 PM	#493
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Things I Wish More People Would Understand, Part 386: Service Desk operators are Customer Service people, not technicians.
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16th November 2021, 08:17 PM	#494
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,999	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Things I Wish More People Would Understand, Part 386: Service Desk operators are Customer Service people, not technicians. Maybe the technicians are in part 387. Joke is a take on the Intel 80386 CPU chip and its accessory 80387 math-co-processor.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Last edited by Blue Mountain; 16th November 2021 at 08:19 PM. Reason: ETA: trie to make lame joke not so lame

16th November 2021, 08:21 PM	#495
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Haha I didn't even notice that. I just typed a random number.
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17th November 2021, 02:22 AM	#496
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,071	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Haha I didn't even notice that. I just typed a random number. Your subconscious might disagree.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

17th November 2021, 07:28 AM	#497
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 39,957	This is completely non-IT related but over the weekend the cleaning crew waxed all the floors and for the last couple days the buildings have been full of echoing sneaker squeaks and it is rather annoying.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

17th November 2021, 08:14 AM	#498
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,202	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue This is completely non-IT related but over the weekend the cleaning crew waxed all the floors and for the last couple days the buildings have been full of echoing sneaker squeaks and it is rather annoying. That's why I can never understand how people can stand to watch basketball. That sound is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

17th November 2021, 09:42 AM	#499
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 13,372	Originally Posted by catsmate Your subconscious might disagree. Pray this exchange doesn't get overheard by the telepathy thread just over there.

17th November 2021, 05:34 PM	#500
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814
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17th November 2021, 08:09 PM	#501
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 34,156	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue This is completely non-IT related but over the weekend the cleaning crew waxed all the floors and for the last couple days the buildings have been full of echoing sneaker squeaks and it is rather annoying. Take off the sneakers so you can slide around on your socks!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

17th November 2021, 08:51 PM	#502
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,503	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Take off the sneakers so you can slide around on your socks! Ah hem. These are IT people. They don't wear socks.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

18th November 2021, 01:41 AM	#503
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,295	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Ah hem. These are IT people. They don't wear socks. ... Wait, what? Did I miss a memo?
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,295	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

18th November 2021, 03:32 AM	#504
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,548	How can you wear mountain boots without socks?
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

18th November 2021, 05:30 AM	#505
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,050	I was assuming they must be argyle tattoos.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

18th November 2021, 12:59 PM	#506
jeremyp Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 1,668	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Ah hem. These are IT people. They don't wear socks. Yes they do - with their sandals.

18th November 2021, 03:41 PM	#507
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,548	Originally Posted by jeremyp Yes they do - with their sandals. If they're quiche eaters. Realm programmers wear mountain boots.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

18th November 2021, 05:13 PM	#508
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	I just got off a call with a perfectly lovely fellow who had absolutely no clue. He said that I was very good at my job. I was able to answer all his questions and explain everything in ways he could readily understand. I went the extra mile for this person, because he was pleasant and in a good mood. It was a good call. I mention it here because in our jobs, and in this thread, we have a tendency to complain and vent. We tend to focus on the bad customers. I think it's important for our outlook and sanity to recognise that occasionally, we get good ones too.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

18th November 2021, 05:39 PM	#509
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,726	Originally Posted by Wudang If they're quiche eaters. Realm programmers wear mountain boots. Which realm?
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

19th November 2021, 12:19 AM	#510
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,295	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I just got off a call with a perfectly lovely fellow who had absolutely no clue. He said that I was very good at my job. I was able to answer all his questions and explain everything in ways he could readily understand. I went the extra mile for this person, because he was pleasant and in a good mood. It was a good call. I mention it here because in our jobs, and in this thread, we have a tendency to complain and vent. We tend to focus on the bad customers. I think it's important for our outlook and sanity to recognise that occasionally, we get good ones too. My best experience with a user was when I was making administrative software for doctors (general practitioners). We were actually partly user owned so we had meetings with the user group twice a year. On one of those meetings I had one of the secretaries who used the system as her main tool for doing her job and who I'd interacted with quite a bit on a feature come up to me and say "You know that button you made (collecting some aggregated data about a patient). That saves me an hour of work a day that I can use on patient-facing stuff. I love that button". That about made my year.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,295	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

19th November 2021, 12:33 AM	#511
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Originally Posted by erlando My best experience with a user was when I was making administrative software for doctors (general practitioners). We were actually partly user owned so we had meetings with the user group twice a year. On one of those meetings I had one of the secretaries who used the system as her main tool for doing her job and who I'd interacted with quite a bit on a feature come up to me and say "You know that button you made (collecting some aggregated data about a patient). That saves me an hour of work a day that I can use on patient-facing stuff. I love that button". That about made my year. Yeah, I've been in a good mood all day, because of that one call.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

19th November 2021, 03:13 AM	#512
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,548	Originally Posted by alfaniner Which realm? Sigh.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

19th November 2021, 10:11 AM	#513
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,503	Originally Posted by Wudang Sigh. Translation --> "If you have to ask, I'm not telling you".
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

19th November 2021, 10:19 AM	#514
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,202	Ah, the joy of trying to work from home when one's internet speed is down to 8 mbps. Finally fixed itself. It was...not fun. I'm still periodically sending emails to myself to make sure they're going to go through.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

20th November 2021, 01:44 AM	#515
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,548	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Translation --> "If you have to ask, I'm not telling you". I debated claiming it's because I have done a little work with realm on Android but honestly I have no clue how that typo crept in. I suck at typing on phones.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.