Dear Users… (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) Part 10 - Page 15

Gord_in_Toronto · 17th December 2021, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money.

How do these people get promoted?!

eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people.

Another meeting? With more people? Isn't there some rule that connects the number of people in a meeting with the inverse of actually producing a result? Good luck.

Norman Alexander · 17th December 2021, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money.

How do these people get promoted?!

eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people.

Charge them back at your aggregated hourly rates for this effort. Chances are that will be a sizeable sum. They will complain, and you can withdraw the charge "reluctantly". But they will remember that their thickness will cost them.

catsmate · 18th December 2021, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money.

How do these people get promoted?!
.

The Peter Principle.

Wudang · 18th December 2021, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

The Peter Principle.

I still remember the pleasant shock I had in a group call with a senior IT executive at t'Bank when I wanted to explain how a particular tool worked and I asked "Do you know what a concentrator network is?" and he replied "Of course." I put my crayons and sock puppets back in the drawer.

a_unique_person · 19th December 2021, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money.

How do these people get promoted?!

eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people.

Because they believe the jargon.

rdaneel · 19th December 2021, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money.

How do these people get promoted?!

eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people.

Makes me think of the recurring theme of users thinking it's all magic.

"You mean you can't just pull this rabbit out of your hat?"

arthwollipot · 19th December 2021, 07:49 PM

I just took a phone call from someone who phoned us to tell us that they couldn't phone us.

I guess.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

How do these people get promoted?!

Originally Posted by catsmate

The Peter Principle.

People are promoted to their level of incompetence.

zooterkin · 20th December 2021, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I just took a phone call from someone who phoned us to tell us that they couldn't phone us.

I guess.

People are promoted to their level of incompetence.

That’s what catsmate said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

The Don · 20th December 2021, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money.

How do these people get promoted?!

eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people.

One of my specialities is large-scale data migration and in particular the sort of data consolidation that goes on during mergers and acquisitions.

It never ceases to amaze me how often clients/senior business people think that migration can fix all the problems in the source data such as someone not filling in their email or entering a valid address which happens to be factually accurate - and don't even get me started on how to migrate data from System B into the new system when it was never migrated from System A which was retired when System B was commissioned.

arthwollipot · 20th December 2021, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

That’s what catsmate said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Yes, I was explaining what the Peter Principle said for people who don't click links.

Filippo Lippi · 21st December 2021, 12:24 AM

Terrible code created by the nicest bloke in office....

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

catsmate · 21st December 2021, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money.

How do these people get promoted?!

eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people.

Back when I was a consultant for <REDACTED> I worked on a client deployment project for <CLIENT> a major international airline. At one, hour long, meeting the main topic of discussion for the eleven client staff present was what the default font for Word and Excel should be when Microsoft Office was deployed (they'd previously been using SmartSuite).
The PM of our little team (who was doing he deployment) was reduced to catatonia.

catsmate · 21st December 2021, 02:34 AM

Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki).

In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item.

However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice.

Wudang · 21st December 2021, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

One of my specialities is large-scale data migration and in particular the sort of data consolidation that goes on during mergers and acquisitions.

It never ceases to amaze me how often clients/senior business people think that migration can fix all the problems in the source data such as someone not filling in their email or entering a valid address which happens to be factually accurate - and don't even get me started on how to migrate data from System B into the new system when it was never migrated from System A which was retired when System B was commissioned.

My wife does the same for companies moving to new systems . The number of companies who think that somehow moving from system A to system B will magically fix all the crap data entered by staff on minimum wage and zero career prospects is amazing.

malbui · 21st December 2021, 05:43 AM

My wife works in that field as well and for the last eighteen months has been running a huge data migration exercise arising from a corporate merger.

Lots of careful analysis and testing has revealed that people’s recollections of what got migrated into the current systems and when are singularly inaccurate.

It is also clear that there has been a certain level of… carelessness in respect of data integrity monitoring over the years.

She is also amused by the number of senior staff who insist that all historical data from business unit X from years YYYY to YYZZ must be available in the new systems, even though these data are not in the current system and indeed the servers on which they were stored have been sitting switched off in a basement for several years.

She is extremely good at her job but reports that a good 80% of it is real low-hanging fruit stuff.

Filippo Lippi · 21st December 2021, 05:57 AM

If business unit X needs data from year YZZY they'll all be transported to the debris room

TragicMonkey · 21st December 2021, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki).

In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item.

However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice.

Years ago I wrote here of the middle management meetings I attended at the job I had at the time, where we spent two minutes on a multiple million dollar shortfall and an hour on the dress code definition of flip flop vs sandal. The latter issue was a huge controversy and came up in every meeting every summer.

malbui · 21st December 2021, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki).

In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item.

However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice.

I’ve been a member of all of our executive committees for the last three years. One of the many advantages of enforced home office has been that during these hideous almost weekly timesinks I can do interesting things on my two big screens while keeping half an eye on the presentation unfolding on my laptop screen. I reckon on average there’s about half an hour of useful stuff in each meeting, most of it spontaneous AOB items at the end.

Filippo Lippi · 21st December 2021, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Years ago I wrote here of the middle management meetings I attended at the job I had at the time, where we spent two minutes on a multiple million dollar shortfall and an hour on the dress code definition of flip flop vs sandal. The latter issue was a huge controversy and came up in every meeting every summer.

"can we have better Fruit and herbal tea selection in the vending machines?" was always fired at senior management in one of my workplaces

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

TragicMonkey · 21st December 2021, 12:31 PM

Dear Users: 90 minutes before my first actual vacation of the year, which will take me out of the office for the rest of the year, is not the time to make a massive new and urgent request.

Fortunately for me, what you're asking for is very, very stupid, and requires you to answer five questions critical to the core logic before I can possibly begin. Good luck answering all five (or understanding them), in your committee of eight people, in the next 89 minutes!

Love always,
[Recipient is Out of Office: "Hi everyone, I'm out on PTO until Jan 3. Address urgent issues to Tiffany S."]

(Tiffany's out until Jan 5, btw)

Norman Alexander · 21st December 2021, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki).

In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item.

However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice.

It is also a great method to slow or even thoroughly stall a completely unwise, undesirable, universally despised and overly-expensive project that has no justification on God's green earth for ever seeing the light of day. Just having the brain-fart owner stalled dealing with font selections and colours can effectively kill such projects, or at least stall them for so long they become irrelevant.

catsmate · 21st December 2021, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

It is also a great method to slow or even thoroughly stall a completely unwise, undesirable, universally despised and overly-expensive project that has no justification on God's green earth for ever seeing the light of day. Just having the brain-fart owner stalled dealing with font selections and colours can effectively kill such projects, or at least stall them for so long they become irrelevant.

Some years ago, on a ~Stg£1.3 billion IT project fora certain UK government entity a meeting was held. At 14:30 on a Friday afternoon naturally (we couldn't wait for a bank holiday alas) so certain 'stakeholders' couldn't make it.

There were 19 items on the agenda and the important one (for me anyway) was carefully placed at number 12. It was carefully phrased using certain technical phraseology which the attendees wouldn't understand, and referred to decision supposedly made by a previous committee regarding part of the project that involved the current IT environment, the Transition phase and the Transformed environment.

It took two minutes and forty-six seconds to be agreed (I timed it, there was money riding on how long it tool) unanimously, and saved my then employers approximately forty million pounds, while eventually causing UKGov to expend about five times that to re-fit.

arthwollipot · 21st December 2021, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Back when I was a consultant for <REDACTED> I worked on a client deployment project for <CLIENT> a major international airline. At one, hour long, meeting the main topic of discussion for the eleven client staff present was what the default font for Word and Excel should be when Microsoft Office was deployed (they'd previously been using SmartSuite).
The PM of our little team (who was doing he deployment) was reduced to catatonia.

I was partially involved in the development of a new brand identity for an employer I once worked for. That's the kind of thing that you have to consider when crafting the image and public face of an organisation.

TragicMonkey · 21st December 2021, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I was partially involved in the development of a new brand identity for an employer I once worked for. That's the kind of thing that you have to consider when crafting the image and public face of an organisation.

Is that why my work rejected my suggestion for a new mascot? I thought Trevor the Diabetic Nephropathy Velociraptor was a cute idea. Although I admit my sketch was probably inaccurate, we don't know whether velociraptors had nipples but if they did they probably weren't pierced.

arthwollipot · 21st December 2021, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Is that why my work rejected my suggestion for a new mascot? I thought Trevor the Diabetic Nephropathy Velociraptor was a cute idea. Although I admit my sketch was probably inaccurate, we don't know whether velociraptors had nipples but if they did they probably weren't pierced.

Actually, velociraptors were reptiles, so we know that they didn't have nipples. But there's no reason that they couldn't have had piercings where their nipples would have been.

TragicMonkey · 21st December 2021, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Actually, velociraptors were reptiles, so we know that they didn't have nipples. But there's no reason that they couldn't have had piercings where their nipples would have been.

I don't think current consensus is that dinosaurs were reptiles.

arthwollipot · 21st December 2021, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I don't think current consensus is that dinosaurs were reptiles.

News to me. Have you got a link?

ETA: Wikipedia includes this footnote:

Quote:

Dinosaurs (including birds) are members of the natural group Reptilia. Their biology does not precisely correspond to the antiquated class Reptilia of Linnaean taxonomy, consisting of cold-blooded amniotes without fur or feathers. As Linnean taxonomy was formulated for modern animals prior to the study of evolution and paleontology, it fails to account for extinct animals with intermediate traits between traditional classes.

TragicMonkey · 21st December 2021, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

News to me. Have you got a link?

ETA: Wikipedia includes this footnote:

No, I just meant they weren't thought of as they were in the bad old days as slow coldblooded things. I didn't realize they'd put birds into Reptilia. I guess they've changed things a bit since I was in high school.

arthwollipot · 21st December 2021, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

No, I just meant they weren't thought of as they were in the bad old days as slow coldblooded things. I didn't realize they'd put birds into Reptilia. I guess they've changed things a bit since I was in high school.

Regarding dinosaurs? They sure have. All the old books I loved when I was a kid are totally wrong now, in almost every significant way.

Filippo Lippi · 22nd December 2021, 03:42 AM

Why isn't our default view of incidents in Service Now "default view?" Our actual default view is rubbish and shows me nothing but status

Grrr...

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

jeremyp · 22nd December 2021, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Actually, velociraptors were reptiles, so we know that they didn't have nipples. But there's no reason that they couldn't have had piercings where their nipples would have been.

Actually they are flightless birds. Still don't have nipples.

Filippo Lippi · 22nd December 2021, 07:36 AM

People who work in tech support?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

TragicMonkey · 22nd December 2021, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

People who work in tech support?

We don't know whether people who work in tech support have nipples but if they do they probably aren't pierced.

catsmate · 22nd December 2021, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I was partially involved in the development of a new brand identity for an employer I once worked for. That's the kind of thing that you have to consider when crafting the image and public face of an organisation.

Oh I've seen that too. In fact the same client joined an alliance of others in the same business all their internal document templates needed to be updated with the new alliance logo in exactly the right position. Something that they were utterly unable to accomplish themselves; it ended up under change control and cost them around thirty thousand Euro for (effectively) a couple of hours of work.

The font discussion was purely for internal use, they had no mandated corporate font; it was down to the merits of TNR, Arial et cetera.

They also required their standard desktop to have their corporate logo inset (and vetoed my animated version of it

) and wanted the colour of the rest to match it. However the bunch of Mac using "designers" were completely unable to actually give us the RGB values of the logo background colour.

catsmate · 22nd December 2021, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

Why isn't our default view of incidents in Service Now "default view?" Our actual default view is rubbish and shows me nothing but status

Grrr...

Because someone paid a consultant at least one hundred times as much as the effort justified to change it.
Duh.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

We don't know whether people who work in tech support have nipples but if they do they probably aren't pierced.

You'd be quite wrong there. I know of at least six with nipple piercings. And two more.....intimate areas pierced.

arthwollipot · 22nd December 2021, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

We don't know whether people who work in tech support have nipples but if they do they probably aren't pierced.

I work in tech support, and I have nipples, but they're not pierced. In fact I have only one piercing.

TragicMonkey · 22nd December 2021, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I work in tech support, and I have nipples, but they're not pierced. In fact I have only one piercing.

Now I'm imagining you have one very large hoop piercing that goes through both nipples.

arthwollipot · 22nd December 2021, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Now I'm imagining you have one very large hoop piercing that goes through both nipples.

How did you know?

arthwollipot · 22nd December 2021, 07:54 PM

Okay then. My day is made. I just spoke to the Most Important Person Not Even In The Department.

Norman Alexander · 22nd December 2021, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

We don't know whether people who work in tech support have nipples but if they do they probably aren't pierced.

It's a fair bet they are pierced. Service Desk live for the pain.

17th December 2021, 03:33 PM	#561
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,500	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money. How do these people get promoted?! eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people. Another meeting? With more people? Isn't there some rule that connects the number of people in a meeting with the inverse of actually producing a result? Good luck.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

17th December 2021, 06:15 PM	#562
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,790	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money. How do these people get promoted?! eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people. Charge them back at your aggregated hourly rates for this effort. Chances are that will be a sizeable sum. They will complain, and you can withdraw the charge "reluctantly". But they will remember that their thickness will cost them.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

18th December 2021, 06:04 AM	#563
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,069	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money. How do these people get promoted?! . The Peter Principle.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th December 2021, 06:09 AM	#564
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,548	Originally Posted by catsmate The Peter Principle. I still remember the pleasant shock I had in a group call with a senior IT executive at t'Bank when I wanted to explain how a particular tool worked and I asked "Do you know what a concentrator network is?" and he replied "Of course." I put my crayons and sock puppets back in the drawer.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

19th December 2021, 02:09 PM	#565
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,242	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money. How do these people get promoted?! eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people. Because they believe the jargon.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

19th December 2021, 07:16 PM	#566
rdaneel Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I'M IN THE PHONEBOOK! I'M SOMEBODY!!! Posts: 4,483	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money. How do these people get promoted?! eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people. Makes me think of the recurring theme of users thinking it's all magic. "You mean you can't just pull this rabbit out of your hat?"
	__________________ "Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor "I heard some things I can't prove from someone I don't know, and God dammit, that's enough for me." - Penny Arcade "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from Science!" - Agatha Heterodyne

19th December 2021, 07:49 PM	#567
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	I just took a phone call from someone who phoned us to tell us that they couldn't phone us. I guess. Originally Posted by TragicMonkey How do these people get promoted?! Originally Posted by catsmate The Peter Principle. People are promoted to their level of incompetence.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

20th December 2021, 05:55 AM	#568
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,391	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I just took a phone call from someone who phoned us to tell us that they couldn't phone us. I guess. People are promoted to their level of incompetence. That’s what catsmate said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

20th December 2021, 06:58 AM	#569
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,406	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money. How do these people get promoted?! eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people. One of my specialities is large-scale data migration and in particular the sort of data consolidation that goes on during mergers and acquisitions. It never ceases to amaze me how often clients/senior business people think that migration can fix all the problems in the source data such as someone not filling in their email or entering a valid address which happens to be factually accurate - and don't even get me started on how to migrate data from System B into the new system when it was never migrated from System A which was retired when System B was commissioned.

20th December 2021, 06:17 PM	#570
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Originally Posted by zooterkin That’s what catsmate said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle Yes, I was explaining what the Peter Principle said for people who don't click links.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

21st December 2021, 12:24 AM	#571
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,869	Terrible code created by the nicest bloke in office.... Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

21st December 2021, 02:29 AM	#572
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,069	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It just took three experts 56 minutes to get it into the very thick skulls of management that if particular data isn't put into the database, we cannot pull that data out of the database. I know how much I'm paid per hour, and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the call is paid even more, so this was a waste not just of my time and patience but also money. How do these people get promoted?! eta: They've scheduled another call for next week so it can be gone over again, with more people. Back when I was a consultant for <REDACTED> I worked on a client deployment project for <CLIENT> a major international airline. At one, hour long, meeting the main topic of discussion for the eleven client staff present was what the default font for Word and Excel should be when Microsoft Office was deployed (they'd previously been using SmartSuite). The PM of our little team (who was doing he deployment) was reduced to catatonia.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st December 2021, 02:34 AM	#573
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,069	Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki). In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item. However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st December 2021, 05:30 AM	#574
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,548	Originally Posted by The Don One of my specialities is large-scale data migration and in particular the sort of data consolidation that goes on during mergers and acquisitions. It never ceases to amaze me how often clients/senior business people think that migration can fix all the problems in the source data such as someone not filling in their email or entering a valid address which happens to be factually accurate - and don't even get me started on how to migrate data from System B into the new system when it was never migrated from System A which was retired when System B was commissioned. My wife does the same for companies moving to new systems . The number of companies who think that somehow moving from system A to system B will magically fix all the crap data entered by staff on minimum wage and zero career prospects is amazing.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

21st December 2021, 05:43 AM	#575
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,276	My wife works in that field as well and for the last eighteen months has been running a huge data migration exercise arising from a corporate merger. Lots of careful analysis and testing has revealed that people’s recollections of what got migrated into the current systems and when are singularly inaccurate. It is also clear that there has been a certain level of… carelessness in respect of data integrity monitoring over the years. She is also amused by the number of senior staff who insist that all historical data from business unit X from years YYYY to YYZZ must be available in the new systems, even though these data are not in the current system and indeed the servers on which they were stored have been sitting switched off in a basement for several years. She is extremely good at her job but reports that a good 80% of it is real low-hanging fruit stuff.
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,276	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

21st December 2021, 05:57 AM	#576
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,869	If business unit X needs data from year YZZY they'll all be transported to the debris room
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

21st December 2021, 06:15 AM	#577
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,193	Originally Posted by catsmate Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki). In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item. However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice. Years ago I wrote here of the middle management meetings I attended at the job I had at the time, where we spent two minutes on a multiple million dollar shortfall and an hour on the dress code definition of flip flop vs sandal. The latter issue was a huge controversy and came up in every meeting every summer.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st December 2021, 06:34 AM	#578
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,276	Originally Posted by catsmate Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki). In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item. However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice. I’ve been a member of all of our executive committees for the last three years. One of the many advantages of enforced home office has been that during these hideous almost weekly timesinks I can do interesting things on my two big screens while keeping half an eye on the presentation unfolding on my laptop screen. I reckon on average there’s about half an hour of useful stuff in each meeting, most of it spontaneous AOB items at the end.
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,276	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

21st December 2021, 07:34 AM	#579
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,869	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Years ago I wrote here of the middle management meetings I attended at the job I had at the time, where we spent two minutes on a multiple million dollar shortfall and an hour on the dress code definition of flip flop vs sandal. The latter issue was a huge controversy and came up in every meeting every summer. "can we have better Fruit and herbal tea selection in the vending machines?" was always fired at senior management in one of my workplaces Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

21st December 2021, 12:31 PM	#580
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,193	Dear Users: 90 minutes before my first actual vacation of the year, which will take me out of the office for the rest of the year, is not the time to make a massive new and urgent request. Fortunately for me, what you're asking for is very, very stupid, and requires you to answer five questions critical to the core logic before I can possibly begin. Good luck answering all five (or understanding them), in your committee of eight people, in the next 89 minutes! Love always, [Recipient is Out of Office: "Hi everyone, I'm out on PTO until Jan 3. Address urgent issues to Tiffany S."] (Tiffany's out until Jan 5, btw)
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st December 2021, 02:12 PM	#581
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,790	Originally Posted by catsmate Another point that repeatedly crops up in these situations, not directly related to the Unfortunate Ape's example, is Parkinson's Principle or the Law of Triviality (wiki). In general the time and effort expended on any item on a meeting agenda will be in inverse proportion to the complexity, importance and value of that item. However, if applied carefully, this can be an excellent way to persuade a managing committee, who are usually technically illiterate, to be guided to the desired choice. It is also a great method to slow or even thoroughly stall a completely unwise, undesirable, universally despised and overly-expensive project that has no justification on God's green earth for ever seeing the light of day. Just having the brain-fart owner stalled dealing with font selections and colours can effectively kill such projects, or at least stall them for so long they become irrelevant.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

21st December 2021, 03:10 PM	#582
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,069	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander It is also a great method to slow or even thoroughly stall a completely unwise, undesirable, universally despised and overly-expensive project that has no justification on God's green earth for ever seeing the light of day. Just having the brain-fart owner stalled dealing with font selections and colours can effectively kill such projects, or at least stall them for so long they become irrelevant. Some years ago, on a ~Stg£1.3 billion IT project fora certain UK government entity a meeting was held. At 14:30 on a Friday afternoon naturally (we couldn't wait for a bank holiday alas) so certain 'stakeholders' couldn't make it. There were 19 items on the agenda and the important one (for me anyway) was carefully placed at number 12. It was carefully phrased using certain technical phraseology which the attendees wouldn't understand, and referred to decision supposedly made by a previous committee regarding part of the project that involved the current IT environment, the Transition phase and the Transformed environment. It took two minutes and forty-six seconds to be agreed (I timed it, there was money riding on how long it tool) unanimously, and saved my then employers approximately forty million pounds, while eventually causing UKGov to expend about five times that to re-fit.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st December 2021, 05:55 PM	#583
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Originally Posted by catsmate Back when I was a consultant for <REDACTED> I worked on a client deployment project for <CLIENT> a major international airline. At one, hour long, meeting the main topic of discussion for the eleven client staff present was what the default font for Word and Excel should be when Microsoft Office was deployed (they'd previously been using SmartSuite). The PM of our little team (who was doing he deployment) was reduced to catatonia. I was partially involved in the development of a new brand identity for an employer I once worked for. That's the kind of thing that you have to consider when crafting the image and public face of an organisation.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

21st December 2021, 06:29 PM	#584
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,193	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I was partially involved in the development of a new brand identity for an employer I once worked for. That's the kind of thing that you have to consider when crafting the image and public face of an organisation. Is that why my work rejected my suggestion for a new mascot? I thought Trevor the Diabetic Nephropathy Velociraptor was a cute idea. Although I admit my sketch was probably inaccurate, we don't know whether velociraptors had nipples but if they did they probably weren't pierced.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st December 2021, 07:24 PM	#585
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Is that why my work rejected my suggestion for a new mascot? I thought Trevor the Diabetic Nephropathy Velociraptor was a cute idea. Although I admit my sketch was probably inaccurate, we don't know whether velociraptors had nipples but if they did they probably weren't pierced. Actually, velociraptors were reptiles, so we know that they didn't have nipples. But there's no reason that they couldn't have had piercings where their nipples would have been.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

21st December 2021, 07:28 PM	#586
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,193	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Actually, velociraptors were reptiles, so we know that they didn't have nipples. But there's no reason that they couldn't have had piercings where their nipples would have been. I don't think current consensus is that dinosaurs were reptiles.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st December 2021, 07:58 PM	#587
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I don't think current consensus is that dinosaurs were reptiles. News to me. Have you got a link? ETA: Wikipedia includes this footnote: Quote: Dinosaurs (including birds) are members of the natural group Reptilia. Their biology does not precisely correspond to the antiquated class Reptilia of Linnaean taxonomy, consisting of cold-blooded amniotes without fur or feathers. As Linnean taxonomy was formulated for modern animals prior to the study of evolution and paleontology, it fails to account for extinct animals with intermediate traits between traditional classes.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава Last edited by arthwollipot; 21st December 2021 at 07:59 PM.

21st December 2021, 08:27 PM	#588
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,193	Originally Posted by arthwollipot News to me. Have you got a link? ETA: Wikipedia includes this footnote: No, I just meant they weren't thought of as they were in the bad old days as slow coldblooded things. I didn't realize they'd put birds into Reptilia. I guess they've changed things a bit since I was in high school.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st December 2021, 08:45 PM	#589
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey No, I just meant they weren't thought of as they were in the bad old days as slow coldblooded things. I didn't realize they'd put birds into Reptilia. I guess they've changed things a bit since I was in high school. Regarding dinosaurs? They sure have. All the old books I loved when I was a kid are totally wrong now, in almost every significant way.
	__________________ Слава Україні Героям слава

22nd December 2021, 03:42 AM	#590
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,869	Why isn't our default view of incidents in Service Now "default view?" Our actual default view is rubbish and shows me nothing but status Grrr... Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

22nd December 2021, 06:03 AM	#591
jeremyp Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 1,668	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Actually, velociraptors were reptiles, so we know that they didn't have nipples. But there's no reason that they couldn't have had piercings where their nipples would have been. Actually they are flightless birds. Still don't have nipples.

22nd December 2021, 07:36 AM	#592
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,869	People who work in tech support? Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

22nd December 2021, 10:03 AM	#593
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,193	Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi People who work in tech support? We don't know whether people who work in tech support have nipples but if they do they probably aren't pierced.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

22nd December 2021, 03:12 PM	#594
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,069	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I was partially involved in the development of a new brand identity for an employer I once worked for. That's the kind of thing that you have to consider when crafting the image and public face of an organisation. Oh I've seen that too. In fact the same client joined an alliance of others in the same business all their internal document templates needed to be updated with the new alliance logo in exactly the right position. Something that they were utterly unable to accomplish themselves; it ended up under change control and cost them around thirty thousand Euro for (effectively) a couple of hours of work. The font discussion was purely for internal use, they had no mandated corporate font; it was down to the merits of TNR, Arial et cetera. They also required their standard desktop to have their corporate logo inset (and vetoed my animated version of it ) and wanted the colour of the rest to match it. However the bunch of Mac using "designers" were completely unable to actually give us the RGB values of the logo background colour.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

22nd December 2021, 03:15 PM	#595
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,069	Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi Why isn't our default view of incidents in Service Now "default view?" Our actual default view is rubbish and shows me nothing but status Grrr... Because someone paid a consultant at least one hundred times as much as the effort justified to change it. Duh. Originally Posted by TragicMonkey We don't know whether people who work in tech support have nipples but if they do they probably aren't pierced. You'd be quite wrong there. I know of at least six with nipple piercings. And two more.....intimate areas pierced.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.