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Old 5th January 2022, 10:53 AM   #1
Wudang
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Mozilla's founder on it taking bitcoins

https://twitter.com/jwz/status/1478022085737803776?s=20

Quote:
'm sure that whoever runs this account has no idea who I am, but I founded @mozilla and I'm here to say **** you and **** this. Everyone involved in the project should be witheringly ashamed of this decision to partner with planet-incinerating Ponzi grifters.
And on cryptocurrencies generally
https://www.jwz.org/blog/tag/dunning-krugerrands/
Quote:
What have these Libertarian crypto-bro idealists built?

The cryptocurrency industry, whose business model would seem unrealistic and ham-handed if it was a villain on Captain Planet: they manufacture only POLLUTION, nothing else, and they turn that into money.

They call it a "currency" but the only thing you can do with it is pay ransom after your computer was hacked! You can't even use it to buy porn!

And make no mistake, if you can't use a thing to buy porn, that thing is not a currency.
Cryptocurrencies are Itchy & Scratchy Money.
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Old 5th January 2022, 10:54 AM   #2
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JWZ. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
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Old 5th January 2022, 10:57 AM   #3
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Someone else retweeted him on twitter and I checked what he posted and followed him. I'd almost forgtten him.
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Old 5th January 2022, 10:58 AM   #4
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And Peter Linss agrees
Quote:
Hey @mozilla
, I expect you don’t know me either, but I designed Gecko, the engine your browser is built on. And I’m 100% with @jwz
on this.

What. The. Actual. ****.

You were meant to be better than this.
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Old 5th January 2022, 11:03 AM   #5
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TBH, "founder of Mozilla" doesn't have anywhere near the authoritative cachet with me that it did 20+ years ago. When he cashed out in the late 90s and opened a nightclub in San Francisco, that was interesting to me as a budding IT/IS professional.
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Old 5th January 2022, 11:06 AM   #6
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Fair comment.
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Old 5th January 2022, 01:58 PM   #7
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People do know they don't have to invest in crypto currency, right?
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Old 5th January 2022, 02:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
People do know they don't have to invest in crypto currency, right?
Weird point. I don't have to invest in fossil fuels either. Or the fast food industry. Or the Catholic church.
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Old 5th January 2022, 02:32 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Weird point. I don't have to invest in fossil fuels either. Or the fast food industry. Or the Catholic church.
Yet, you do. All of them massive pollution creators and most have caused more damage to humans than crypto.

I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me.
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Old 5th January 2022, 02:40 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yet, you do. All of them massive pollution creators and most have caused more damage to humans than crypto.

I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me.
What do you mean? People complain about fossil fuels all the time. There is no special hate reserved for crypto. It's just another thing that's harmful for the environment, and I can go on about it just as I can go on about the meat industry.
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Old 5th January 2022, 02:49 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
What do you mean? People complain about fossil fuels all the time. There is no special hate reserved for crypto. It's just another thing that's harmful for the environment, and I can go on about it just as I can go on about the meat industry.
Ok, are you actually doing anything to make a difference or just complaining about it? Crypto is currently working on decreasing its environmental impact. Are you working on decreasing yours?
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Old 5th January 2022, 03:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, are you actually doing anything to make a difference or just complaining about it? Crypto is currently working on decreasing its environmental impact. Are you working on decreasing yours?
Well, yes, but that's not really the point. Large changes are necessary, and large changes require a majority of people to be on board. If enough people complain, others might take notice.
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Old 5th January 2022, 03:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
JWZ. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
I corresponded with him briefly about IMAP4 implementation for work, IIRC, many years ago. Not someone who leaves you in any doubt about their opinion.
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Old 5th January 2022, 05:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
TBH, "founder of Mozilla" doesn't have anywhere near the authoritative cachet with me that it did 20+ years ago. When he cashed out in the late 90s and opened a nightclub in San Francisco, that was interesting to me as a budding IT/IS professional.
Sure, and you don't really need any special vantage point or insight to see that cypto is a dumpster fire. Nothing about this comment is untrue, but it is neither particularly interesting or unique.

Hell, I imagine many of the crypto people would broadly agree, they just don't care because they hope they are one of the lucky ones that wins at the casino.
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Old 5th January 2022, 05:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, and you don't really need any special vantage point or insight to see that cypto is a dumpster fire. Nothing about this comment is untrue, but it is neither particularly interesting or unique.

Hell, I imagine many of the crypto people would broadly agree, they just don't care because they hope they are one of the lucky ones that wins at the casino.
Exactly. For all I know, JWZ's opinion is just knee-jerk anti-crypto curmudgeonry, completely unrelated to, and uninformed by, his technical background.
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Old 6th January 2022, 02:44 AM   #16
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Nice to see more people calling the crypto-nuts on their Dunning-Krugerrands.
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Old 6th January 2022, 08:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Nice to see more people calling the crypto-nuts on their Dunning-Krugerrands.
Absolutely, it's definitely making a huge difference. Crypto is almost gone now.
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Old 6th January 2022, 09:22 AM   #18
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Business is booming:

Quote:
Crypto scammers took a record $14 billion in 2021

Scammers around the world took home a record $14 billion in cryptocurrency in 2021, thanks in large part to the rise of DeFi.
Losses from crypto-related crime rose 79% from 2020.
Cryptocurrency theft rose 516% from 2020, to $3.2 billion worth of cryptocurrency. Of this total, 72% of stolen funds were taken from DeFi protocols.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/06/cryp...box=1641459762
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Old 6th January 2022, 09:35 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Terrible. I'm happy there's no scamming that goes on anywhere else and that this is completely unique to crypto. Anyway, I'll let you all bitch about it. Cheers.
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Old 6th January 2022, 09:37 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Terrible. I'm happy there's no scamming that goes on anywhere else and that this is completely unique to crypto. Anyway, I'll let you all bitch about it. Cheers.
Tell me how you really feel, don't be shy
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Old 7th January 2022, 09:39 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me.
Because it is quite literally a pyramid scheme, and we should be bad-talking those things any time they're brought up.

If a friend of mine mentions Avon or Herbalife, I explain to them what pyramid schemes are and how they work, and that I cannot recommend strongly enough to not get involved with them, even experimentally. Every single time. Sometimes I convince them and a lot of times I don't, but I always make the effort and I will continue to do so.

Same thing with crypto and NFTs and things like this. It's a scam. A tulip mania. A star-name registry. I'm not going to simply content myself with personally avoiding the trap and silently watching other people fall into it.
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Old 7th January 2022, 10:03 PM   #22
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Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.
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Old 7th January 2022, 11:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Because it is quite literally a pyramid scheme, and we should be bad-talking those things any time they're brought up.



If a friend of mine mentions Avon or Herbalife, I explain to them what pyramid schemes are and how they work, and that I cannot recommend strongly enough to not get involved with them, even experimentally. Every single time. Sometimes I convince them and a lot of times I don't, but I always make the effort and I will continue to do so.



Same thing with crypto and NFTs and things like this. It's a scam. A tulip mania. A star-name registry. I'm not going to simply content myself with personally avoiding the trap and silently watching other people fall into it.
It's all a pyramid scheme. It's just a matter of how convincing it is.
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Old 8th January 2022, 12:15 AM   #24
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One of the nicer things about a new crypto thread is that you can recycle all of the ancient arguments from the bitcoin thread.
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Old 8th January 2022, 12:29 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
One of the nicer things about a new crypto thread is that you can recycle all of the ancient arguments from the bitcoin thread.
.. which is more environmentally friendly than crypto mining.
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Old 8th January 2022, 03:01 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.
...and therefore people that want to prevent the damage should do what?
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Old 8th January 2022, 04:24 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.
Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage.
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Old 8th January 2022, 09:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage.
As the JWZ link says "They promised us Bond villains with lasers and unhackable data centers in atmosphere-evacuated vaults in international waters. What they gave us was the banality of day-traders, armchair finance-bros with laser-eye avatars, who are unable to give up on the grift because the grift requires that they must always find the greater fool"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
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Old 8th January 2022, 11:38 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage.
If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well.
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Old 8th January 2022, 11:45 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well.
Well his point is basically that there are other values than money. If that doesn't work for you then I guess that's your choice.
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Old 8th January 2022, 12:02 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.
That's an argument for doing anything, no matter how unethical, as long as it brings you profit and is legal.

Some companies don't do that, I think.
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Old 8th January 2022, 01:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well.
Individually, could be. But if many people refuse to be paid in bitcoin it will lower its usefulness, and thus its value, reducing the incentive to waste electricity mining for it.
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Old 8th January 2022, 01:14 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I am waiting for the invevitable Bitcoin crash. The only question is whether it will be big enough to take the world economy down along with Bitcoin. I think it's quite likely that it will be.
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Old 8th January 2022, 06:18 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I am waiting for the invevitable Bitcoin crash. The only question is whether it will be big enough to take the world economy down along with Bitcoin. I think it's quite likely that it will be.
Claims about the imminent demise of bitcoin (this time for sure!) belong in the other thread.

OTOH I don't expect to see a single word about the technology in this thread.
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Old 8th January 2022, 06:35 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
That's an argument for doing anything, no matter how unethical, as long as it brings you profit and is legal.

Some companies don't do that, I think.
So? Does coming across as an eco scold ever actually work?The energy requirements of crypto mining are well known. The current Mozilla leadership are making an informed decision. Does JWZ really think they hold the Memory of Dear Founder so highly that if he rants at them they'll change their minds?

Mozilla doesn't run on happy thoughts and rainbows. They need money. You think maybe they've already considered the trade offs? Already weighed Greta Thunberg's future against the present circumstances of their employees and their current operations?

Do you think less Mozilla is a worthwhile price to pay, for some drop in the bucket of global emissions reduction? Do you think the people who work there would agree?
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Old 8th January 2022, 07:43 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So? Does coming across as an eco scold ever actually work?The energy requirements of crypto mining are well known. The current Mozilla leadership are making an informed decision. Does JWZ really think they hold the Memory of Dear Founder so highly that if he rants at them they'll change their minds?

Mozilla doesn't run on happy thoughts and rainbows. They need money. You think maybe they've already considered the trade offs? Already weighed Greta Thunberg's future against the present circumstances of their employees and their current operations?

Do you think less Mozilla is a worthwhile price to pay, for some drop in the bucket of global emissions reduction? Do you think the people who work there would agree?
From a cynical point of view, bad PR can make a company rethink its policies. There's also something to be said for the benefits of good PR. More donations might start pouring in if they take a stand.

Is it because Mozilla are non-profit? I don't think that absolves them of everything.
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Old 9th January 2022, 12:59 PM   #37
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Some numbers regarding Etherium costs. https://www.usenix.org/publications/...ine/web3-fraud

"So a mere second of Ethereum’s virtual machine costs 25 times more than a month of my far more capable EC2 instance. Or could buy me several Raspberry Pis."
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Last edited by Wudang; 9th January 2022 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 9th January 2022, 01:17 PM   #38
Dr.Sid
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Some numbers regarding Etherium costs. https://www.usenix.org/publications/...ine/web3-fraud

"So a mere second of Ethereum’s virtual machine costs 25 times more than a month of my far more capable EC2 instance. Or could buy me several Raspberry Pis."
Etherium ? What's that ? It's not mentioned in the article.
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Old 9th January 2022, 01:40 PM   #39
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Etherium ? What's that ? It's not mentioned in the article.
Is it really useful to pick on a one character misspelling? Especially when it's spelled correct immediately afterward?

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 9th January 2022 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 9th January 2022, 02:02 PM   #40
Dr.Sid
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Is it really useful to pick on a one character misspelling? Especially when it's spelled correct immediately afterward?
But that doesn't make sense. The article is about web3, not Ethereum itself.
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