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Old 1st February 2019, 01:39 PM   #1
Nay_Sayer
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Even more reasons to never visit Saudi Arabia (old story)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...wBg0L3WJQ7fJkM
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Last edited by Nay_Sayer; 1st February 2019 at 02:59 PM. Reason: Fixed
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:01 PM   #2
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There are reasons why, very quietly, the US military is moving it's assets from Saudi to other Gulf States. The other Gulf States are no one's idea of a good government, but they are not batcrap crazy like the Saudi's appear to be.
I have never known on US Serviceman who was stanioned to Saudi who as not happy when their tour of duty was up. And it's not just that Saudi Arabis is hot as hell all the time.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:16 PM   #3
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That link is from 2014.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:18 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
That link is from 2014.
Their culture is from 630 so if you look at it in those terms...
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Their culture is from 630 so if you look at it in those terms...
When I opened the link I thought, "Oh, King Abdullah is in charge again?"

I have sought out experiences in the Middle East but I'm uniquely un-tempted to visit Saudi Arabia.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
That link is from 2014.
My apologies. I was sent it today. I always check post dates, well almost always.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:58 AM   #7
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I spent 4 years there, and enjyoed it, despite the restrictions.
Most Saudis are perfectly nice people- polite, friendly, and looking for the same things in life that we all are. (The exception is when they get behind the wheel of a car, at which point they turn into suicidal maniacs). People are people, after all.
I doubt there are many countries in the world where people would like to be judged by the actions of their governments. I see no reason to make Saudi Arabia an exception to this maxim.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:06 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I spent 4 years there, and enjyoed it, despite the restrictions.
Most Saudis are perfectly nice people- polite, friendly, and looking for the same things in life that we all are. (The exception is when they get behind the wheel of a car, at which point they turn into suicidal maniacs). People are people, after all.
I doubt there are many countries in the world where people would like to be judged by the actions of their governments. I see no reason to make Saudi Arabia an exception to this maxim.
It's not the average people there who are scary - it's the diabolical, bloodthirsty monarchy.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:19 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I spent 4 years there, and enjyoed it, despite the restrictions.
Most Saudis are perfectly nice people- polite, friendly, and looking for the same things in life that we all are. (The exception is when they get behind the wheel of a car, at which point they turn into suicidal maniacs). People are people, after all.
I doubt there are many countries in the world where people would like to be judged by the actions of their governments. I see no reason to make Saudi Arabia an exception to this maxim.
It's a wheeled camel, and they are attacking Aqaba with El Aurens.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 05:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
When I opened the link I thought, "Oh, King Abdullah is in charge again?"

I have sought out experiences in the Middle East but I'm uniquely un-tempted to visit Saudi Arabia.
Especially since you can get straight-up debauched in Abu Dhabi.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 06:39 AM   #11
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“What happens in Abu Dhabi stays in Abu Dhabi...”
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:05 PM   #12
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Oh - I thought it was because of Maria Carey.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I spent 4 years there, and enjyoed it, despite the restrictions.
Most Saudis are perfectly nice people- polite, friendly, and looking for the same things in life that we all are. (The exception is when they get behind the wheel of a car, at which point they turn into suicidal maniacs). People are people, after all.
I doubt there are many countries in the world where people would like to be judged by the actions of their governments. I see no reason to make Saudi Arabia an exception to this maxim.

Well this thread by Nay Sayer is titled:

"Even more reasons to never visit Saudi Arabia"

And links an article with the heading:

"Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents"

There is no suggestion that the general people are not nice but one would have to be foolhardy to go there if your were an atheist and not quiet about it. I read it is illegal to be an atheist in Indonesia as well and in a province Sharia is law.

To go to some places is not so clever and there is one other consideration. If you visit a country as a tourist you are showing some tacit approval for the nature of the country. You are contributing to the economy with your patronage.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 02:09 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well this thread by Nay Sayer is titled:

"Even more reasons to never visit Saudi Arabia"

And links an article with the heading:

"Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents"

There is no suggestion that the general people are not nice but one would have to be foolhardy to go there if your were an atheist and not quiet about it. I read it is illegal to be an atheist in Indonesia as well and in a province Sharia is law.
And yet 5% of Saudis self-identify as atheist. LIke I say, best not to judge a country solely on its government.
I'm an atheist, and I lived in Riyadh for 4 years without any problem at all. Obviously, I didn't shout it from the rooftops, but it said 'non-Muslim' on my ID card- which was checked on a regular basis (we worked in the Diplomatic Quarter, so had to go through security on the way in), and I was never challenged on this.


Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
To go to some places is not so clever and there is one other consideration. If you visit a country as a tourist you are showing some tacit approval for the nature of the country. You are contributing to the economy with your patronage.
You can't visit Saudi Arabia as a tourist: they don't issue tourist visas. I assumed it was clear from the length of time I mentioned that I was working there. In fact, is was they who were contributing to my economy.
More importantly, I disagree entirely with the idea that one shouldn't visit certain countries. I think my job (English teacher) plays a small but vital role in helping people from different cultures communicate with each other. This is expecially true -for Westerners like myself- in the case of Muslim countries, and even more so for a closed country like Saudi. The fact they they can see us, and realise that we don't think they're all terrorists, and that we can see them and know they don't all hate us, will help to promote more tolerance and mutual understanding, something that a self-imposed boycott will not.
One can visit a country to show empathy and sympathy for its people: it doesn't have to mean one approves of its rulers.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:29 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You can't visit Saudi Arabia as a tourist: they don't issue tourist visas.
You can now. They've maybe realised that the oil won't last for ever.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 01:23 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And yet 5% of Saudis self-identify as atheist. LIke I say, best not to judge a country solely on its government.
I'm an atheist, and I lived in Riyadh for 4 years without any problem at all. Obviously, I didn't shout it from the rooftops, but it said 'non-Muslim' on my ID card- which was checked on a regular basis (we worked in the Diplomatic Quarter, so had to go through security on the way in), and I was never challenged on this.
Now did I do that?

So you lived there for 4 years without a problem, but the article Nay Sayer linked is about Saudi Arabia declaring all atheists as terrorists in new law. Did you miss that? Also Muslims seem to have an issue about folk being atheists. If you have another religion like Christianity not so bad.

Quote:
You can't visit Saudi Arabia as a tourist: they don't issue tourist visas. I assumed it was clear from the length of time I mentioned that I was working there. In fact, is was they who were contributing to my economy.
Baron answered the first sentence and I would add that vast thousands of Muslims visit the country every year to do their thing at Mecca. I don't understand the rest about what was clear and who contributed what.

Quote:
More importantly, I disagree entirely with the idea that one shouldn't visit certain countries. I think my job (English teacher) plays a small but vital role in helping people from different cultures communicate with each other. This is expecially true -for Westerners like myself- in the case of Muslim countries, and even more so for a closed country like Saudi. The fact they they can see us, and realise that we don't think they're all terrorists, and that we can see them and know they don't all hate us, will help to promote more tolerance and mutual understanding, something that a self-imposed boycott will not.
That is all very nice but one of the most effective weapons we have to show our disproval of bad regimes is to boycott and impose sanctions.

Quote:
One can visit a country to show empathy and sympathy for its people: it doesn't have to mean one approves of its rulers.
More words implying I said something I did not.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 02:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It's a wheeled camel, and they are attacking Aqaba with El Aurens.
But did they cross the Nefud Desert to get there, the last place on Earth that God made......

Yes, Lawrence of Arabia is one of my favorite movies.......
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Old 3rd February 2019, 02:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Their culture is from 630 so if you look at it in those terms...

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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But did they cross the Nefud Desert to get there, the last place on Earth that God made......

Yes, Lawrence of Arabia is one of my favorite movies.......
Mine too, but it does so distort the history. Having consulted my second-edition copy of Seven Pillars, the Arab forces actually defeated the Turks at Abu al Lasan in the dry river valley well to the north of Aqaba. During the charge, Lawrence accidentally shot his own camel in the head with his pistol. Aqaba wasn't a surprise to the British forces either, as they had sent gunboats to attack the town as Lawrence's forces approached.
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Old 4th February 2019, 02:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Now did I do that?
I refer you back to the OP: "Even more reasons never to visit Saudi Arabia". That is condemning the entire country because of the actions of its government, and I haven't noticed you disputing that.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So you lived there for 4 years without a problem, but the article Nay Sayer linked is about Saudi Arabia declaring all atheists as terrorists in new law. Did you miss that?
The law was passed in 2014, as has been noted already in this thread. Perhaps you missed that.
I was living there in 2014, btw.


Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Also Muslims seem to have an issue about folk being atheists. If you have another religion like Christianity not so bad.
Sweeping generalisation, unsupported by reality. Plenty of Christians have a problem with people being atheists, plenty of Muslims do not.



Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Baron answered the first sentence and I would add that vast thousands of Muslims visit the country every year to do their thing at Mecca. I don't understand the rest about what was clear and who contributed what.
Haj and Umrah visas are only issued to Muslims. A pilgrimage is not really my idea of tourism.
As Baron says, they are worried about the oil situation, and are- belatedly-looking to diversify their income. This is why they've just started to issue tourist visas.
The rest was, to my mind quite clear. You said I was a tourist. I said I was not. By working, I was geting paid in Saudi money, thus they contributed to my personal finances, rather than me contributing to theirs.


Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
That is all very nice but one of the most effective weapons we have to show our disproval of bad regimes is to boycott and impose sanctions.
Which is collective punishment, and appears to contradict your first point. If you only have a problem with the Saudi government, then why advocate a policy that would have a minimal impact on them, and instead punish the general populace?
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak
One can visit a country to show empathy and sympathy for its people: it doesn't have to mean one approves of its rulers.

More words implying I said something I did not.

Let me refresh your memory.

Originally Posted by Thor2
If you visit a country as a tourist you are showing some tacit approval for the nature of the country.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:51 AM   #21
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I worked in Saudi for just two years. I always considered it the world's largest minimum security prison. Many of the people were nice but the government and particularly the religious police were another matter. Driving was like entering the Roman Forum thru the gladiators entrance.

After l left Saudi I received and offer to work in Dubai. Not knowing much about it I called a Saudi friend and asked him about Dubai.

He said, 'Ah Dubayy, Sodom and Gomorrah, you go good for Westerner, it has movies, music, pork, alcohol and women'.....I went!
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:40 PM   #22
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Lets revisit this. Nay Sayer posted:

Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post

So you come back with:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I spent 4 years there, and enjyoed it, despite the restrictions.
Most Saudis are perfectly nice people- polite, friendly, and looking for the same things in life that we all are. (The exception is when they get behind the wheel of a car, at which point they turn into suicidal maniacs). People are people, after all.
I doubt there are many countries in the world where people would like to be judged by the actions of their governments. I see no reason to make Saudi Arabia an exception to this maxim.

Now did Nay Sayer say anything about judging the people because of the governments actions?

So I point this out with the following:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well this thread by Nay Sayer is titled:

"Even more reasons to never visit Saudi Arabia"

And links an article with the heading:

"Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents"

There is no suggestion that the general people are not nice but one would have to be foolhardy to go there if your were an atheist and not quiet about it. I read it is illegal to be an atheist in Indonesia as well and in a province Sharia is law.

To go to some places is not so clever and there is one other consideration. If you visit a country as a tourist you are showing some tacit approval for the nature of the country. You are contributing to the economy with your patronage.

So you round on me with similar tosh:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And yet 5% of Saudis self-identify as atheist. LIke I say, best not to judge a country solely on its government.
I'm an atheist, and I lived in Riyadh for 4 years without any problem at all. Obviously, I didn't shout it from the rooftops, but it said 'non-Muslim' on my ID card- which was checked on a regular basis (we worked in the Diplomatic Quarter, so had to go through security on the way in), and I was never challenged on this.

You can't visit Saudi Arabia as a tourist: they don't issue tourist visas. I assumed it was clear from the length of time I mentioned that I was working there. In fact, is was they who were contributing to my economy.
More importantly, I disagree entirely with the idea that one shouldn't visit certain countries. I think my job (English teacher) plays a small but vital role in helping people from different cultures communicate with each other. This is expecially true -for Westerners like myself- in the case of Muslim countries, and even more so for a closed country like Saudi. The fact they they can see us, and realise that we don't think they're all terrorists, and that we can see them and know they don't all hate us, will help to promote more tolerance and mutual understanding, something that a self-imposed boycott will not.
One can visit a country to show empathy and sympathy for its people: it doesn't have to mean one approves of its rulers.

So 5% of Saudis self identify as atheists? Somewhat contradictory to the figures I have seen, including the CIA World Fact Book and crazy if the law Nay Sayer alerted us too is enforced.

If you Google it you will find quite a number of Muslim countries that outlaw atheism, (on pain of death), but tolerate other religions, (although not with open arms), with their borders.

Sure, as you say, there a nice people in Saudi, but the people are screwed up by their religion. A poll taken in Egypt not long ago found that in the order of 70%, (can't remember the exact figure) condoned violence in answer to attacks on Islam. Kill the cartoonists and such.
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