Is the Roman Catholic Church in Freefall?

[Filippo Lippi]

Nun’s Rape Case Against Bishop Shakes a Catholic Bastion in India

[Thor 2]

Thanks Filippo.

A dramatic illustration of the lengths the RCC will go to to suppress stories like this getting out.

Quote:

“If this case goes ahead, it will be a new beginning and priests and bishops will be forced to be held accountable,” said the Rev. Augustine Vattoly, a priest in Kerala who was an early supporter of the nun’s accusations and said he was ordered by his superiors to back away or face repercussions.

“The church is losing its moral authority,” Father Vattoly said. “We are losing the faith of the people. The church will become a place without people if this continues. Just like in Europe, the young will no longer come here.”

"Ordered by his superiors to back away or face repercussions" .... Yes that sounds about right.

The raped nun and her sister nuns had to hold a public protest for weeks before any action was taken by the Vatican or the police.

[Blue Mountain]

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

Nun’s Rape Case Against Bishop Shakes a Catholic Bastion in India

I there a link to the actual story at the NYT and not to a blasted information-free twitter feed??

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

I there a link to the actual story at the NYT and not to a blasted information-free twitter feed??

Here you go https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/09/w...ia-bishop.html

It was a link in the twitter feed.

[Thor 2]

Wondering about the offending priests, bishops, cardinals and ...... popes next?

Do these guys somehow contrive to see themselves in a state of grace after committing these terrible acts I wonder. Can they somehow self justify what they have done and see themselves as good clergy, with God smiling on them. Alternatively perhaps they have moved beyond that, belief has long since gone and now it is just a job. A job with perks.

[Blue Mountain]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Here you go https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/09/w...ia-bishop.html

It was a link in the twitter feed.

Thanks for the link. I have the site "static-ads.twitter.com" in my ad-busting HOSTS file, but for some reason that also prevented the Twitter site from retrieving the picture that usually displays under the tweet. Said picture is also the only part of the page that contains the link! Idiot programmers.

[arthwollipot]

East Timor defrocks Catholic priest after case of Catholic child sexual abuse is confirmed

Quote:

An American missionary who was a hero in Timor-Leste for founding children's shelters that have operated for more than two decades has been expelled from his Catholic congregation after admitting to sexual abuse of minors.

Media reports about the allegations have stunned the country, also known as East Timor, one of two predominantly Catholic nations in Asia along with the Philippines.

The bishop of Dili, Virgilio do Carmo da Silva, told reporters that American Richard Daschbach was expelled from the church last year and was no longer a priest.

...

The public defenders' office in Oe-Kusi Ambeno said it was aware of the scandal but there was no criminal case registered against him.

Yet. Hopefully.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

East Timor defrocks Catholic priest after case of Catholic child sexual abuse is confirmed



Yet. Hopefully.

Wow they did the right thing once. Now if they would stop protecting priests who rape nuns...

[Darat]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Wow they did the right thing once. Now if they would stop protecting priests who rape nuns...

They can't rape children, now they can't rape nuns, what do you expect them to do, be celibate?

[Trebuchet]

It's not just the Catholics, either. Southern Baptist sex abuse.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Darat

They can't rape children, now they can't rape nuns, what do you expect them to do, be celibate?

Change the rules to allow them to get married.

[Tony99]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Change the rules to allow them to get married.

Not a chance the Vatican will loosen the purse strings to support a priest and his family.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's not just the Catholics, either. Southern Baptist sex abuse.

A powerful article.

Watching the video I was stunned to hear one of the ex pastors, (now doing time) complaining that he was a victim. After all, he said, he had brought 400 - 500 people to a saving faith.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Tony99

Not a chance the Vatican will loosen the purse strings to support a priest and his family.

There is more to it than just that I think. An unmarried priest would be inclined to bequeath his wealth to the church, if he had no family to give it too. Wasn't this part of the reason for the celibacy ruling?

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

There is more to it than just that I think. An unmarried priest would be inclined to bequeath his wealth to the church, if he had no family to give it too. Wasn't this part of the reason for the celibacy ruling?

Pretty much, though the Church would say it was the risk that a married priest would bequeath the Church's property to his family.


There were longstanding issues with various Bishoprics and what not essentially becoming heritable within a family who was coincidentally the same as the local nobility.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Wondering about the offending priests, bishops, cardinals and ...... popes next?

Do these guys somehow contrive to see themselves in a state of grace after committing these terrible acts I wonder. Can they somehow self justify what they have done and see themselves as good clergy, with God smiling on them. Alternatively perhaps they have moved beyond that, belief has long since gone and now it is just a job. A job with perks.

It seems to me the question I ask above is answered to some degree in the testaments given by the clergy in the article linked by Trebuchet below.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's not just the Catholics, either. Southern Baptist sex abuse.

I get the impression that some thought they were the good guys but victims. Nasty little kids seducing them and such.

[The Nimble Pianist]

Originally Posted by Tony99

Not a chance the Vatican will loosen the purse strings to support a priest and his family.

"The Vatican" does not pay priests or bishops. Deacons, priests, bishops, diocesan personnel, etc. are paid by the local diocese. Parish personnel (janitors, professional choirs, school teachers/principals, etc.) are paid by the local parish.

The Catholic Church is not as centralized as many people seem to believe. Financially speaking almost no money from the local churches (i.e. dioceses) makes it way to the Vatican unless there are funding campaigns specifically stipulated for such. These might take the form of a second collection for a particular intention of the Pope, or of a particular dicastery in the Vatican, or in the annual "Peter's Pence". Dioceses might independently send off annual assessments to the Vatican but those monies in turn come from either direct donation to the diocese or from the bishops' annual appeals held at the parish level. In some cases there are small taxes levied by the diocese on the parishes of their weekly offerings (usually something around 5% or less). Point is, when you drop cash into that basket at Sunday Mass the vast majority of it stays at that parish and if any of it indirectly makes its way to Rome it does so at such a negligible rate that we can functionally ignore it in calculations.

The vast wealth of the Vatican comes almost entirely from assets, art/cultural patrimony, tourism, real estate, business investments, and the Institute for the Works of Religion (i.e. "the Vatican Bank").

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by ahhell

Pretty much, though the Church would say it was the risk that a married priest would bequeath the Church's property to his family.


There were longstanding issues with various Bishoprics and what not essentially becoming heritable within a family who was coincidentally the same as the local nobility.

They possibly could abandon celibacy nevertheless. During the early years of the schism between the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches priestly celibacy was not one of the major issues of conflict, though things that now seem of lesser importance, like the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist, were fought over stubbornly.

Many Eastern rite churches admit married men to the priesthood, while accepting the authority of Rome.

It is one of the reforms that Rome might be persuaded to accept, though the struggle to secure it will be long and hard.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I get the impression that some thought they were the good guys but victims. Nasty little kids seducing them and such.

Just shows how much they have in common with catholic doctrine.

[The Nimble Pianist]

Originally Posted by Craig B

They possibly could abandon celibacy nevertheless. During the early years of the schism between the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches priestly celibacy was not one of the major issues of conflict, though things that now seem of lesser importance, like the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist, were fought over stubbornly.

Many Eastern rite churches admit married men to the priesthood, while accepting the authority of Rome.

Not only do the Eastern Catholic churches admit married men to the priesthood, many of them require men to be married as a condition of ordination (religious priests excluded).

Quote:

It is one of the reforms that Rome might be persuaded to accept, though the struggle to secure it will be long and hard.

I'm honestly expecting this to happen this year at the Pan-Amazon Synod in October, at least on a regional scale there. Ordaining married men to the priesthood has been mentioned as a solution to the priest shortage in South America and Pope Francis has spoken very favorably about it many times in the past. One thing we've learned about all these episcopal synods under this papacy is that they're usually a farce and the conclusions are foreordained by whatever the Pope has already said he wants. Pope says married priests in the Amazon will be a good thing then come October the bishops will rubber stamp it and we're going to have married priests in the Amazon by next year.

After a few years they'll have another synod to assess how the situation is in the Amazon. If all looks good you can then expect all priestly celibacy to be dropped worldwide. Episcopal and religious celibacy isn't likely to ever be rescinded since its history goes back way later in history an is shared by all of the Apostolic churches not just Rome.

Anyway, the long awaited Vatican summit on worldwide sex abuse starts tomorrow. I'm not hopeful for much more than a bunch of hand wringing, and perhaps a commission of a commission to be set up to investigate bishops and cardinals... which will of course be answerable to no one besides other bishops and cardinals.

In other news, the doctrinal thermostat has been cranked up. The Pope recently returned from a trip to Abu Dhabi in which he met with some prominent Islamic Sheikh and signed a joint declaration that God "wills the diversity of religions." This has caused quite the **** storm among more orthodox Catholics since this clearly is at odds with the Catholic dogma of the unicity of the faith. A few days later Gerhard Cardinal Müller issued a public manifesto denouncing recent confusion in the faith. While he doesn't explicitly name Pope Francis, anyone in the know who has been paying attention to Catholic current events can see that every issue he mentions and then condemns has been a pet doctrinal project of the current pontiff (that divorced and remarried may receive Holy Communion, Protestants may receive Holy Communion, Hell doesn't exist, the souls of the damned simply cease to exist, the death penalty is intrinsically evil, salvation outside of Christianity, etc.) That it was Cardinal Müller who issued this makes it doubly interesting since he is the former Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. This congregation used to be known as The Holy Office of the Inquisition. Yeah, that inquisition. It's the office responsible for safeguarding the doctrines and dogmata of the faith by investigating heresy and censuring it. This is the closest I think we've ever come to a sitting Cardinal implicitly calling a sitting Pope a heretic! Time to get the popcorn.

[Thor 2]

"God wills the diversity of religions."

What a wonderful proclamation and stepping stone towards harmony between different religious groups. Warms the cockles of my heat it does. Mind you it is somewhat at odds with the idea that Jesus, Mohamed, whatever, are the only way. Some work to do on this yet.

[Thor 2]

Only just over 2 months until Easter and in the Philippines they will be dusting off the crosses and sharpening the nails soon, in preparation for the crucifixions. It would impress me no end to see Francis stepping up to the plate and trying to stop this barbarism.

Mind you it's a good money spinner as the ghoulish flock to see the spectacle. This could in no small part, be the reason the practice has not been stopped long ago, by any authority.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Only just over 2 months until Easter and in the Philippines they will be dusting off the crosses and sharpening the nails soon, in preparation for the crucifixions. It would impress me no end to see Francis stepping up to the plate and trying to stop this barbarism.

Mind you it's a good money spinner as the ghoulish flock to see the spectacle. This could in no small part, be the reason the practice has not been stopped long ago, by any authority.

For the record (since I know you're curious), I consider that particular event to be a level of self-harm that borders on the pathological.

[Trebuchet]

Married priests won't solve the problem, either. Note the Baptist scandal I linked to upthread. I'd bet pretty much all of those men were married.

[Thor 2]

So now we have even more child abuse being claimed. This time in Maris (Catholic) colleges. I think the uprooting of the "Ellis Defence" may have something to do with this. I can picture many Catholic Clergy cowering in their cathedrals waiting for the axe to fall. Have to admit to a touch of schadenfreude here.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-...maris/10807538

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Married priests won't solve the problem, either. Note the Baptist scandal I linked to upthread. I'd bet pretty much all of those men were married.

I think it may be a matter of degree. The Royal Commission in Australia did find the number of child abuses by the Catholic clergy disproportionately high by comparison to other church folk. I think I posted these figures way back in this thread.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

For the record (since I know you're curious), I consider that particular event to be a level of self-harm that borders on the pathological.

Thank you arth.

Me (being an opportunist ) will post this on the other religion/mad thread.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Thank you arth.

Me (being an opportunist ) will post this on the other religion/mad thread.

Of course.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Craig B

They possibly could abandon celibacy nevertheless. During the early years of the schism between the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches priestly celibacy was not one of the major issues of conflict, though things that now seem of lesser importance, like the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist, were fought over stubbornly.

Many Eastern rite churches admit married men to the priesthood, while accepting the authority of Rome.

It is one of the reforms that Rome might be persuaded to accept, though the struggle to secure it will be long and hard.

And the Vatican does allow married men to be priests whenever it is convenient for them to do so.

[Darat]

And in the “you couldn’t make it up” column, today’s new story “Vatican envoy Luigi Ventura faces sexual assault claim” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47255439

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Darat

And in the “you couldn’t make it up” column, today’s new story “Vatican envoy Luigi Ventura faces sexual assault claim” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47255439

Yes it just goes on and on. The following reminds me of one of the entries to the reason "Reason Finals" Sam Harris ran a few years ago. A pope goes out to greet the crowd in St Peter's and nobody is there.

Quote:

The crowds are quieter than they used to be.
At the Pope's weekly audience in St Peter's Square, tourists and pilgrims barely filled half the piazza. It was easy to get to the front of the crowd to watch Francis go by in his Popemobile.

[sphenisc]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Yes it just goes on and on. The following reminds me of one of the entries to the reason "Reason Finals" Sam Harris ran a few years ago. A pope goes out to greet the crowd in St Peter's and nobody is there.

Quote:

The crowds are quieter than they used to be.
At the Pope's weekly audience in St Peter's Square, tourists and pilgrims barely filled half the piazza. It was easy to get to the front of the crowd to watch Francis go by in his Popemobile.

Looks like James Reynolds thought pretty much the same thing...or more precisely, exactly the same thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45340721

[The Nimble Pianist]

I find the Filipino practice of devotional crucifixion to be disgusting, but...

Originally Posted by Thor 2

It would impress me no end to see Francis stepping up to the plate and trying to stop this barbarism.

What do you expect Pope Francis to do about this? It's a practice performed by less than 100 people per year in one part of the globe in a church of over a billion people. The bishops of the Philippines without reservation condemn the practice every single year. What more can he or they do?

[The Nimble Pianist]

Meet the new Roman Camerlengo, His Eminence Kevin Cardinal Farrell.

The Roman Camerlengo is responsible for validating the death of the Pope (via the silver hammer), sealing off his residence and offices, destroying his seal and papal ring, and convoking and presiding over the next papal conclave. During the interregnum the Roman Camerlengo serves as the de facto head of the Catholic Church and the head of state of Vatican City. It's sort of (though not completely) analogous to the position held by a vice president, except the Camerlengo doesn't "finish off" the prior pontiff's term since the term was finished by the very death of said pontiff. As soon as there's white smoke coming from the conclave's chimneys the Camerlengo ceases to be head of the Church/State.

Cardinal Farrell is an interesting character. He's the current Prefect of the Dicastery for Laity, Family and Life, a promotion that was given in the midst of the ex-Cardinal, Archbishop McCarrick scandal here in the United States and which was met with considerable shock and disgust. Cardinal Farrell was once the six-year roommate of Archbishop McCarrick and he swears to this day that he had no idea McCarrick was raping post-pubescent boys and taking adult seminarians to his bed. Cardinal Farrell also once served five years under disgraced Marcial Maciel, who was the Mexican priest who started the religious order "Legionaries of Christ", raped dozens of individuals under his care, fathered children despite his vows of celibacy and went on to rape two of his own biological sons. Cardinal Farrell, again, swears he knew nothing of Fr. Maciel's improprieties. While Cardinal Farrell was the bishop of Dallas he infamously dismissed a case of priestly rape against a male altar server because the server was 17 at the time and so was of the age to consent to sex. I **** you not.

Let's recap:

In the same week leading up to the Vatican summit on worldwide sex abuse, a summit that was the raison d'etre for Pope Francis unilaterally stepping in to the American bishops' November summit in Baltimore and telling them they are forbidden from voting on any binding or non-binding resolutions addressing sex abuse in the American clergy, we have the Vatican leaking info about the ***possible*** defrocking of McCarrick (which of course was met with great jubilation by the papolaters of the Church) as what appears to anyone with half a brain as a PR stunt, and then one of like 5 American prelates with the most blood on his hands is named the ******* Camerlengo of the Catholic Church.

You SERIOUSLY can't make this **** up.

[Trebuchet]

McCarrick's defrocking is confirmed.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by The Nimble Pianist

I find the Filipino practice of devotional crucifixion to be disgusting, but...



What do you expect Pope Francis to do about this? It's a practice performed by less than 100 people per year in one part of the globe in a church of over a billion people. The bishops of the Philippines without reservation condemn the practice every single year. What more can he or they do?

Well yes I can see more that can be done now that you ask. A few bleating bishops is not much of a response I think. These deluded Catholic dudes need to hear it straight from the head man.

Francis should rock up there in his popemobile and give it to them straight...... "Look you guys, I'm the head of this outfit and I'm telling you this cross hanging **** is not on." (He could bring along a bit of muscle, like a couple of those guards from the Vatican in their daggy dress.)

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well yes I can see more that can be done now that you ask. A few bleating bishops is not much of a response I think. These deluded Catholic dudes need to hear it straight from the head man.

Francis should rock up there in his popemobile and give it to them straight...... "Look you guys, I'm the head of this outfit and I'm telling you this cross hanging **** is not on." (He could bring along a bit of muscle, like a couple of those guards from the Vatican in their daggy dress.)

He should tell them that if they want to copy the Jesus narrative they have to do it correctly and stay up there until they are dead.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

McCarrick's defrocking is confirmed.

The first time a Cardinal has been defrocked they report. Not only losing his red cap and frock but his priesthood as well! We are still waiting to see what further moves are to be made about Pell.

One has to wonder about the not so penetrating insight, popes have shown in appointing these guys to their elevated status. Sure it could be argued they make these decisions when not sitting in the infallible chair, but then again we can ask, why wouldn't they use this facility they have been given?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

The first time a Cardinal has been defrocked they report. Not only losing his red cap and frock but his priesthood as well! We are still waiting to see what further moves are to be made about Pell.

One has to wonder about the not so penetrating insight, popes have shown in appointing these guys to their elevated status. Sure it could be argued they make these decisions when not sitting in the infallible chair, but then again we can ask, why wouldn't they use this facility they have been given?

Shhh! The infallibility thing is make-believe, but no-one is supposed to know that.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Darat

And the Vatican does allow married men to be priests whenever it is convenient for them to do so.

I believe that the RCC has accepted already-married defectors from the CoE.