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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 9th February 2019, 11:08 AM   #1081
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Nun’s Rape Case Against Bishop Shakes a Catholic Bastion in India
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Old 9th February 2019, 01:41 PM   #1082
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Thanks Filippo.

A dramatic illustration of the lengths the RCC will go to to suppress stories like this getting out.

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“If this case goes ahead, it will be a new beginning and priests and bishops will be forced to be held accountable,” said the Rev. Augustine Vattoly, a priest in Kerala who was an early supporter of the nun’s accusations and said he was ordered by his superiors to back away or face repercussions.

“The church is losing its moral authority,” Father Vattoly said. “We are losing the faith of the people. The church will become a place without people if this continues. Just like in Europe, the young will no longer come here.”

"Ordered by his superiors to back away or face repercussions" .... Yes that sounds about right.

The raped nun and her sister nuns had to hold a public protest for weeks before any action was taken by the Vatican or the police.
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Old 9th February 2019, 03:28 PM   #1083
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
I there a link to the actual story at the NYT and not to a blasted information-free twitter feed??
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Old 9th February 2019, 04:45 PM   #1084
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I there a link to the actual story at the NYT and not to a blasted information-free twitter feed??
Here you go https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/09/w...ia-bishop.html

It was a link in the twitter feed.
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Old 9th February 2019, 05:39 PM   #1085
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Wondering about the offending priests, bishops, cardinals and ...... popes next?

Do these guys somehow contrive to see themselves in a state of grace after committing these terrible acts I wonder. Can they somehow self justify what they have done and see themselves as good clergy, with God smiling on them. Alternatively perhaps they have moved beyond that, belief has long since gone and now it is just a job. A job with perks.
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Old 9th February 2019, 10:52 PM   #1086
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here you go https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/09/w...ia-bishop.html

It was a link in the twitter feed.
Thanks for the link. I have the site "static-ads.twitter.com" in my ad-busting HOSTS file, but for some reason that also prevented the Twitter site from retrieving the picture that usually displays under the tweet. Said picture is also the only part of the page that contains the link! Idiot programmers.
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:50 PM   #1087
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East Timor defrocks Catholic priest after case of Catholic child sexual abuse is confirmed

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An American missionary who was a hero in Timor-Leste for founding children's shelters that have operated for more than two decades has been expelled from his Catholic congregation after admitting to sexual abuse of minors.

Media reports about the allegations have stunned the country, also known as East Timor, one of two predominantly Catholic nations in Asia along with the Philippines.

The bishop of Dili, Virgilio do Carmo da Silva, told reporters that American Richard Daschbach was expelled from the church last year and was no longer a priest.

...

The public defenders' office in Oe-Kusi Ambeno said it was aware of the scandal but there was no criminal case registered against him.
Yet. Hopefully.
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:19 AM   #1088
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Wow they did the right thing once. Now if they would stop protecting priests who rape nuns...
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:02 AM   #1089
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Wow they did the right thing once. Now if they would stop protecting priests who rape nuns...
They can't rape children, now they can't rape nuns, what do you expect them to do, be celibate?
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:11 AM   #1090
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It's not just the Catholics, either. Southern Baptist sex abuse.
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:57 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
They can't rape children, now they can't rape nuns, what do you expect them to do, be celibate?
Change the rules to allow them to get married.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:04 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Change the rules to allow them to get married.
Not a chance the Vatican will loosen the purse strings to support a priest and his family.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:07 PM   #1093
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's not just the Catholics, either. Southern Baptist sex abuse.

A powerful article.

Watching the video I was stunned to hear one of the ex pastors, (now doing time) complaining that he was a victim. After all, he said, he had brought 400 - 500 people to a saving faith.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:13 PM   #1094
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Not a chance the Vatican will loosen the purse strings to support a priest and his family.

There is more to it than just that I think. An unmarried priest would be inclined to bequeath his wealth to the church, if he had no family to give it too. Wasn't this part of the reason for the celibacy ruling?
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:37 PM   #1095
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There is more to it than just that I think. An unmarried priest would be inclined to bequeath his wealth to the church, if he had no family to give it too. Wasn't this part of the reason for the celibacy ruling?
Pretty much, though the Church would say it was the risk that a married priest would bequeath the Church's property to his family.


There were longstanding issues with various Bishoprics and what not essentially becoming heritable within a family who was coincidentally the same as the local nobility.
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:02 PM   #1096
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Wondering about the offending priests, bishops, cardinals and ...... popes next?

Do these guys somehow contrive to see themselves in a state of grace after committing these terrible acts I wonder. Can they somehow self justify what they have done and see themselves as good clergy, with God smiling on them. Alternatively perhaps they have moved beyond that, belief has long since gone and now it is just a job. A job with perks.

It seems to me the question I ask above is answered to some degree in the testaments given by the clergy in the article linked by Trebuchet below.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's not just the Catholics, either. Southern Baptist sex abuse.

I get the impression that some thought they were the good guys but victims. Nasty little kids seducing them and such.
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:55 PM   #1097
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Not a chance the Vatican will loosen the purse strings to support a priest and his family.
"The Vatican" does not pay priests or bishops. Deacons, priests, bishops, diocesan personnel, etc. are paid by the local diocese. Parish personnel (janitors, professional choirs, school teachers/principals, etc.) are paid by the local parish.

The Catholic Church is not as centralized as many people seem to believe. Financially speaking almost no money from the local churches (i.e. dioceses) makes it way to the Vatican unless there are funding campaigns specifically stipulated for such. These might take the form of a second collection for a particular intention of the Pope, or of a particular dicastery in the Vatican, or in the annual "Peter's Pence". Dioceses might independently send off annual assessments to the Vatican but those monies in turn come from either direct donation to the diocese or from the bishops' annual appeals held at the parish level. In some cases there are small taxes levied by the diocese on the parishes of their weekly offerings (usually something around 5% or less). Point is, when you drop cash into that basket at Sunday Mass the vast majority of it stays at that parish and if any of it indirectly makes its way to Rome it does so at such a negligible rate that we can functionally ignore it in calculations.

The vast wealth of the Vatican comes almost entirely from assets, art/cultural patrimony, tourism, real estate, business investments, and the Institute for the Works of Religion (i.e. "the Vatican Bank").
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:49 AM   #1098
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Pretty much, though the Church would say it was the risk that a married priest would bequeath the Church's property to his family.


There were longstanding issues with various Bishoprics and what not essentially becoming heritable within a family who was coincidentally the same as the local nobility.
They possibly could abandon celibacy nevertheless. During the early years of the schism between the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches priestly celibacy was not one of the major issues of conflict, though things that now seem of lesser importance, like the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist, were fought over stubbornly.

Many Eastern rite churches admit married men to the priesthood, while accepting the authority of Rome.

It is one of the reforms that Rome might be persuaded to accept, though the struggle to secure it will be long and hard.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:50 AM   #1099
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I get the impression that some thought they were the good guys but victims. Nasty little kids seducing them and such.
Just shows how much they have in common with catholic doctrine.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:25 PM   #1100
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
They possibly could abandon celibacy nevertheless. During the early years of the schism between the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches priestly celibacy was not one of the major issues of conflict, though things that now seem of lesser importance, like the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist, were fought over stubbornly.

Many Eastern rite churches admit married men to the priesthood, while accepting the authority of Rome.
Not only do the Eastern Catholic churches admit married men to the priesthood, many of them require men to be married as a condition of ordination (religious priests excluded).

Quote:
It is one of the reforms that Rome might be persuaded to accept, though the struggle to secure it will be long and hard.
I'm honestly expecting this to happen this year at the Pan-Amazon Synod in October, at least on a regional scale there. Ordaining married men to the priesthood has been mentioned as a solution to the priest shortage in South America and Pope Francis has spoken very favorably about it many times in the past. One thing we've learned about all these episcopal synods under this papacy is that they're usually a farce and the conclusions are foreordained by whatever the Pope has already said he wants. Pope says married priests in the Amazon will be a good thing then come October the bishops will rubber stamp it and we're going to have married priests in the Amazon by next year.

After a few years they'll have another synod to assess how the situation is in the Amazon. If all looks good you can then expect all priestly celibacy to be dropped worldwide. Episcopal and religious celibacy isn't likely to ever be rescinded since its history goes back way later in history an is shared by all of the Apostolic churches not just Rome.

Anyway, the long awaited Vatican summit on worldwide sex abuse starts tomorrow. I'm not hopeful for much more than a bunch of hand wringing, and perhaps a commission of a commission to be set up to investigate bishops and cardinals... which will of course be answerable to no one besides other bishops and cardinals.

In other news, the doctrinal thermostat has been cranked up. The Pope recently returned from a trip to Abu Dhabi in which he met with some prominent Islamic Sheikh and signed a joint declaration that God "wills the diversity of religions." This has caused quite the **** storm among more orthodox Catholics since this clearly is at odds with the Catholic dogma of the unicity of the faith. A few days later Gerhard Cardinal Müller issued a public manifesto denouncing recent confusion in the faith. While he doesn't explicitly name Pope Francis, anyone in the know who has been paying attention to Catholic current events can see that every issue he mentions and then condemns has been a pet doctrinal project of the current pontiff (that divorced and remarried may receive Holy Communion, Protestants may receive Holy Communion, Hell doesn't exist, the souls of the damned simply cease to exist, the death penalty is intrinsically evil, salvation outside of Christianity, etc.) That it was Cardinal Müller who issued this makes it doubly interesting since he is the former Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. This congregation used to be known as The Holy Office of the Inquisition. Yeah, that inquisition. It's the office responsible for safeguarding the doctrines and dogmata of the faith by investigating heresy and censuring it. This is the closest I think we've ever come to a sitting Cardinal implicitly calling a sitting Pope a heretic! Time to get the popcorn.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:46 PM   #1101
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"God wills the diversity of religions."

What a wonderful proclamation and stepping stone towards harmony between different religious groups. Warms the cockles of my heat it does. Mind you it is somewhat at odds with the idea that Jesus, Mohamed, whatever, are the only way. Some work to do on this yet.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:28 PM   #1102
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Only just over 2 months until Easter and in the Philippines they will be dusting off the crosses and sharpening the nails soon, in preparation for the crucifixions. It would impress me no end to see Francis stepping up to the plate and trying to stop this barbarism.

Mind you it's a good money spinner as the ghoulish flock to see the spectacle. This could in no small part, be the reason the practice has not been stopped long ago, by any authority.
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Old 13th February 2019, 05:02 PM   #1103
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Only just over 2 months until Easter and in the Philippines they will be dusting off the crosses and sharpening the nails soon, in preparation for the crucifixions. It would impress me no end to see Francis stepping up to the plate and trying to stop this barbarism.

Mind you it's a good money spinner as the ghoulish flock to see the spectacle. This could in no small part, be the reason the practice has not been stopped long ago, by any authority.
For the record (since I know you're curious), I consider that particular event to be a level of self-harm that borders on the pathological.
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Old 13th February 2019, 05:53 PM   #1104
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Married priests won't solve the problem, either. Note the Baptist scandal I linked to upthread. I'd bet pretty much all of those men were married.
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Old Yesterday, 02:28 PM   #1105
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So now we have even more child abuse being claimed. This time in Maris (Catholic) colleges. I think the uprooting of the "Ellis Defence" may have something to do with this. I can picture many Catholic Clergy cowering in their cathedrals waiting for the axe to fall. Have to admit to a touch of schadenfreude here.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-...maris/10807538
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Old Yesterday, 02:33 PM   #1106
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Married priests won't solve the problem, either. Note the Baptist scandal I linked to upthread. I'd bet pretty much all of those men were married.

I think it may be a matter of degree. The Royal Commission in Australia did find the number of child abuses by the Catholic clergy disproportionately high by comparison to other church folk. I think I posted these figures way back in this thread.
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Old Yesterday, 02:38 PM   #1107
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For the record (since I know you're curious), I consider that particular event to be a level of self-harm that borders on the pathological.

Thank you arth.

Me (being an opportunist ) will post this on the other religion/mad thread.
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Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM   #1108
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thank you arth.

Me (being an opportunist ) will post this on the other religion/mad thread.
Of course.
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Old Today, 04:51 PM   #1109
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
They possibly could abandon celibacy nevertheless. During the early years of the schism between the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches priestly celibacy was not one of the major issues of conflict, though things that now seem of lesser importance, like the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist, were fought over stubbornly.

Many Eastern rite churches admit married men to the priesthood, while accepting the authority of Rome.

It is one of the reforms that Rome might be persuaded to accept, though the struggle to secure it will be long and hard.
And the Vatican does allow married men to be priests whenever it is convenient for them to do so.
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Old Today, 04:53 PM   #1110
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And in the “you couldn’t make it up” column, today’s new story “Vatican envoy Luigi Ventura faces sexual assault claim” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47255439
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Old Today, 06:52 PM   #1111
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And in the “you couldn’t make it up” column, today’s new story “Vatican envoy Luigi Ventura faces sexual assault claim” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47255439

Yes it just goes on and on. The following reminds me of one of the entries to the reason "Reason Finals" Sam Harris ran a few years ago. A pope goes out to greet the crowd in St Peter's and nobody is there.


Quote:
The crowds are quieter than they used to be.
At the Pope's weekly audience in St Peter's Square, tourists and pilgrims barely filled half the piazza. It was easy to get to the front of the crowd to watch Francis go by in his Popemobile.
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Old Today, 07:06 PM   #1112
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes it just goes on and on. The following reminds me of one of the entries to the reason "Reason Finals" Sam Harris ran a few years ago. A pope goes out to greet the crowd in St Peter's and nobody is there.
Quote:
The crowds are quieter than they used to be.
At the Pope's weekly audience in St Peter's Square, tourists and pilgrims barely filled half the piazza. It was easy to get to the front of the crowd to watch Francis go by in his Popemobile.
Looks like James Reynolds thought pretty much the same thing...or more precisely, exactly the same thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45340721
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