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Old 31st January 2019, 05:02 PM   #121
dudalb
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Scientology (and to a lesser extant Mormonism) are just weird because they are new.

There's no more objective "weirdness" in either of those than any ancient mainstream religion.
Being a cult is not about weirdness of belief, but about how it works as an organization.
What makes Sceintoogy so dangerous is not it beliefs, as wacked out as they may be, but the way it exploits it's followers and the way it attacks it's enemises.
Take away those and it's just another fairly harmless UFO nut group. It's it widespread use of coercion and it's behavior that makes it dangerous.'

Once again the standard definition of cult is more about behavior as an organization then it is about religious beleifs.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:11 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
I'd add in the tenacious adherence to the word of Trump no matter how far it parts with reality is cult like as well. So that's two right off the top.
Historian Michael Burleigh has written a lot about what he calls "Secular Cults"" Political movements that take on all the emotional features of militant religious beliefs except they don't require a belief in the Supernatural.
(In fact one of the biggies in this category, Communism, was violently opposed to belief in the Supernatural).
Burleigh points at the Nazis and the Communists as two extremely successful (at least for a while) secular cults which did incalculable damage to the world in the 20th Century.
Burleigh has commented on the Trump followers, thinks they are a version of his Secular Cult ( paritularly a belief in an all powerful always right leader) but although they have the potential for mischief,thinks they do not have the potential for massive damage the way that the Nazis and the Communist did.
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Old 31st January 2019, 07:44 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The main difference is that you're free to leave a religion, but not a cult. For example, anybody can freely leave Islam without any...

No, wait.
Any number of human beings, former Muslim and Christian, say, “Hi” and or “Selam Aleykum.”
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Old 1st February 2019, 07:16 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Sure, I'll grant you that that alone does not constitute the entirety of what differentiates a Cult from a Religion, and I'm not saying that that's the only criteria to consider... but it is an important and interesting difference, because why is that? Why is the concept of a Cult perceived (both by outsiders and by members) as something negative, but Religion isn't? That is something worth studying. It hints that there's a difference in how our cultures, worldwide, view cults and how they view Religions. If we didn't think they were different, we wouldn't think of one as negative and the other one as, at least, socially acceptable generally speaking.

Other more easy to nail-down differences:

* Cults have a living human being as a leader. Religions have an omnipotent God
* Cults are very secretive and possessive about their members, and they're typically not allowed to leave as easily as in Religions
* Because of their secretiveness, Cults behave more like Spying Agencies, monitoring everything about their members and sometimes their closed ones. Religions operate more like social communities where, generally speaking, members are not being monitored and scrutinized.
You are putting the horse before the cart. Cult is already a label with negative connotations why would anyone therefore choose to use that label for their structure of beliefs?
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Old 1st February 2019, 07:33 AM   #125
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I think Dudalb is correct, and these posts pretty well sum up my understanding of the current distinction between "cult" and "religion".
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The standard definition of cult is not so much about belief but practice and how the religion is ran.
I think the "all religions are cults" is pretty much at attempt to discredit all religions with cheap shot.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Being a cult is not about weirdness of belief, but about how it works as an organization.
What makes Sceintoogy so dangerous is not it beliefs, as wacked out as they may be, but the way it exploits it's followers and the way it attacks it's enemises.
Take away those and it's just another fairly harmless UFO nut group. It's it widespread use of coercion and it's behavior that makes it dangerous.'

Once again the standard definition of cult is more about behavior as an organization then it is about religious beleifs.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Historian Michael Burleigh has written a lot about what he calls "Secular Cults"" Political movements that take on all the emotional features of militant religious beliefs except they don't require a belief in the Supernatural.
(In fact one of the biggies in this category, Communism, was violently opposed to belief in the Supernatural).
Burleigh points at the Nazis and the Communists as two extremely successful (at least for a while) secular cults which did incalculable damage to the world in the 20th Century.
Burleigh has commented on the Trump followers, thinks they are a version of his Secular Cult ( paritularly a belief in an all powerful always right leader) but although they have the potential for mischief,thinks they do not have the potential for massive damage the way that the Nazis and the Communist did.
One of the reasons I think Trumpism is less of a threat than NAZIism/Fascism and Communism is that it lacks any sort of coherent philosophy. There's nothing to latch onto other than Trump!

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Old 1st February 2019, 01:33 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I think Dudalb is correct, and these posts pretty well sum up my understanding of the current distinction between "cult" and "religion".



One of the reasons I think Trumpism is less of a threat than NAZIism/Fascism and Communism is that it lacks any sort of coherent philosophy. There's nothing to latch onto other than Trump!
I agree generaslly , but not sure that is why the Trump movement is less dangerous then the Nazi movement. Nazism really lacked a cohrenet philoopsy as well. In the end it boiled down to two things;worship of Adolf and hatred of anything it sawe as "UnGerman".
Burleigh main reason for thinking that Trump and his followers, however despicable they might be (and Burleigh has nothing but contempt for them)
is the circumstances they are in are totally different;That the US has a strong tradition of Democracy, and the countries where the secular cults took over did not.And Burleigh also thinks Trump is not nearly as clever a politician as Hitler was.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:43 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree generaslly , but not sure that is why the Trump movement is less dangerous then the Nazi movement. Nazism really lacked a cohrenet philoopsy as well. In the end it boiled down to two things;worship of Adolf and hatred of anything it sawe as "UnGerman".
Burleigh main reason for thinking that Trump and his followers, however despicable they might be (and Burleigh has nothing but contempt for them)
is the circumstances they are in are totally different;That the US has a strong tradition of Democracy, and the countries where the secular cults took over did not.And Burleigh also thinks Trump is not nearly as clever a politician as Hitler was.
When the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement was announced some of the propaganda ministry staff expressed surprise, given the prior attitude of Germany to the USSR. One of them asked how the accord could be reconciled with Nazi doctrine, Goebbels responded: "Nazi doctrine is whatever Adolf Hitler says it is."
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:25 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You are putting the horse before the cart. Cult is already a label with negative connotations why would anyone therefore choose to use that label for their structure of beliefs?
That's the point: Why is "Cult" already a label with negative connotations? In our culture, the label Cult has negative connotations to everyone, both cult members and outsiders, but in the case of Religion this is not the case, even though Religions and Cults are both very similar (to the point that this thread needed to be created to try to figure out their differences) It means there's something fundamentally "wrong" to our eyes with the concept of "cult" that even a cult itself admits is not something worthy of adopting the label. But in the case of Religion, a lot of this "wrongness" is also present, and yet all Religious people are proud to call themselves a religion. Almost as if there was no negative connotation with that label. But a lot of atheists and agnostics and posters here in general would also find it insulting if they were told they're behaving as a Religious person. There's an awareness of the negative connotations in the word "Religion" that they have, and it is sometimes used in forums and discussions as a passive aggressive attack.

I think this has to do in part with the fact that Religion is a more culturally acceptable term, that has earned a sort of respect out of the mere tradition, from all the centuries that it has existed. The fact that Religions and Politics are sometimes closely intertwined (in non-secular cultures for instance). There's something "Diplomatic" about Religion that makes it seem more acceptable in our culture, than a cult. And I'm not suggesting that all Religions are toxic, nor that they are all as toxic as a cult... But our culture seems to ignore the fact that generally, Religions and Cults are very similar and yet, the label "cult" is universally perceived as negative, and the word "Religion" is just a cultural tradition that we just have to respect even if we disagree with it (This explains the whole controversy against people such as Sam Harris criticizing Islam. "No, you're not allowed to criticize Islam. That's their culture and you have to respect it, etc etc")
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:33 PM   #129
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Of course religion is not usually found to be an insult. It is a generally accepted concept found among pretty much all groups of people. Cult may have at one time meant one thing but over time it's use has been shifted to become almost a pejorative. Cult now usually means religion gone bad. If you start from the standpoint that religion itself is not good or religion is bad then the distinction between religion and cult might be hard to discern.

Just as in religious circles the term atheist is not usually met with approval. I know a guy who is one of the mainstream Baptist sects (to me almost an oxymoron) and when informed of Stephen Hawkings passing basically blew it off - he ignored Hawkings and his work because he felt Hawkings had not only insulted religion but worse was antireligious. He's not alone by any means. Is that cult like behavior or sticking your head in the sand up to about the waist?

I worked at one time with a very religious guy in his early 20's Holy Roller type and he had all these NOTW stickers all over his car - something I did not know about. He explained it to me day and to me it seemed he had crossed over from very religious deep into whack country. He was a smart guy but very very lazy and completely unmotivated except for reading the bible. He even ognored his wife much of the time in favor of reading the bible unless they read together. I asked him about it one day and his answer was (I am paraphrasing) as far as he was concerned life here was just a holding pattern till he got to heaven so he wasn't putting any effort in. Even if you believe all that it seems an insult to waste whatever talent you were given and not make full use of your given potential. So to me he picked the parts he wanted and ignored the rest.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:49 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
Of course religion is not usually found to be an insult. It is a generally accepted concept found among pretty much all groups of people. Cult may have at one time meant one thing but over time it's use has been shifted to become almost a pejorative. Cult now usually means religion gone bad. If you start from the standpoint that religion itself is not good or religion is bad then the distinction between religion and cult might be hard to discern.

Exactly

But even though every possible distinction throw in by the "there is a difference" brigade has been addressed and debunked the "debate" rolls on in a monotonous monologue. Nothing new is added just the same crap repeated, with a decorative frill being added here or there.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 04:15 PM   #131
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I think the single charismatic leader, as discussed by Arthwollipot and others is a distinctive feature.

However, that leads to comparisons with the Catholic church and popes.

IIRC, when my former partner was studying theology, one of the distinctions she mentioned, is that the charismatic leader does all of the interpretation of the founding text/s. The followers are strongly discouraged from performing any exegesis of their own.
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Old 4th February 2019, 07:39 AM   #132
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Hmmm. Thinking about it, perhaps the best designation between cult and religion is the ratio of fanatics/true believers to casual believers? As this ratio moves towards 1, it is more cult-like.
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Old 4th February 2019, 07:46 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree generaslly , but not sure that is why the Trump movement is less dangerous then the Nazi movement. Nazism really lacked a cohrenet philoopsy as well. In the end it boiled down to two things;worship of Adolf and hatred of anything it sawe as "UnGerman".
Burleigh main reason for thinking that Trump and his followers, however despicable they might be (and Burleigh has nothing but contempt for them)
is the circumstances they are in are totally different;That the US has a strong tradition of Democracy, and the countries where the secular cults took over did not.And Burleigh also thinks Trump is not nearly as clever a politician as Hitler was.
That is true, something that is often overlooked in the rise of the NAZI's, Fascists, and Bolsheviks. None of those three countries had more than a generation of democracy in recent years and neither German nor Italy had been united countries for more than 2.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:39 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Hmmm. Thinking about it, perhaps the best designation between cult and religion is the ratio of fanatics/true believers to casual believers? As this ratio moves towards 1, it is more cult-like.
Yeah, that's a good parameter of differentiation. Cults are definitely more fanatic about their belief. To the point that the word "cult" is also used to define a group of people who are huge fans of a movie or book. The Star Wars Cult Following, the Lord of the Rings Cult Following, etc.
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Old 10th February 2019, 05:48 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Hmmm. Thinking about it, perhaps the best designation between cult and religion is the ratio of fanatics/true believers to casual believers? As this ratio moves towards 1, it is more cult-like.
The problem with that definition as I see it is that it relies on definitions of "fanatic" and "casual believer". So it's an informal definition at best, but it could be said that there isn't a strictly formal definition, so it's probably useful enough.
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Old 11th February 2019, 07:51 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The problem with that definition as I see it is that it relies on definitions of "fanatic" and "casual believer". So it's an informal definition at best, but it could be said that there isn't a strictly formal definition, so it's probably useful enough.
Yeah. It's a grey area...and I don't think we can specify the moral RGB values for the particular shade of grey that crosses the line
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:27 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah. It's a grey area...and I don't think we can specify the moral RGB values for the particular shade of grey that crosses the line
It's easy to recognise the far ends of the spectrum - Heaven's Gate vs Unitarian Universalist for example, but there's a lot of wiggle room in the middle. I linked upthread to one set of indicators, others have suggested others. All we can really do is tick off boxes until we reach a critical number.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:37 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Or just one of three!
Well, they are three that are actually one that, something something ...

Oh hell, the Trinity never made any sense to me in my childhood, when I was (sort of) a believer, and it still doesn't make any sense to me. Nor could I really nail down exactly what the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit, if you will) is supposed to be.
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Old 13th February 2019, 05:18 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Well, they are three that are actually one that, something something ...

Oh hell, the Trinity never made any sense to me in my childhood, when I was (sort of) a believer, and it still doesn't make any sense to me. Nor could I really nail down exactly what the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit, if you will) is supposed to be.
It actually has similarities to Hindu avatars as I understand them. God, Jesus and the Ghost are all aspects of God, but they are different and separate aspects of God.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:37 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree generaslly , but not sure that is why the Trump movement is less dangerous then the Nazi movement. Nazism really lacked a cohrenet philoopsy as well. In the end it boiled down to two things;worship of Adolf and hatred of anything it sawe as "UnGerman".
I don't think that's what it boiled down to for most people. As in, I don't think anyone thought, "I'll vote for this Adolf fellow because he's so in love with himself and hates Russia." (The anti-semitism part was actually throttled the hell down for the elections.)

The more immediate need the average idiot has, and I really mean idiot, is for a simple solution to everything. He or she doesn't want to hear stuff like, if we want to stop the inflation, then unemployment will rise at least at first (cf the well known curve), and then we'll need years anyway until we balance our trade deficit, and so on. He needs something simple and which solves everything. Or at the very least doesn't affect anything negatively, if it doesn't solve that.

This can be "bring back the caliphate, and God will solve everything for us". Or it could be "vote for this Adolf fellow, he'll fix everything. Make the economy awesome with his autarky ideas, feed everyone with his de-industrialization ideas, etc." That it doesn't usually have that effect, is usually of no consequence.

The average idiot is also always willing to believe that the problem are other people than him. HE is totally pulling his own weight and then some. It's those other guys over there who are totally dragging everyone behind. Hell, even basic human rights, it's those other guys who don't deserve them, or giving it to them is just a burden on everyone else.

So any ideas about some strong state (be it secular, or see the caliphate again) putting those other guys in their place is very popular among the idiot demographic. Now it may not mean outright killing them, but you know, stop giving THOSE deabeats medical care, unemployment benefits and whatnot. Hell, cut mine too, as long as THOSE guys get a cut.

He's also more than willing to believe that things were much better in the past. Turning back the clock a century or two is always a plausible solution to everything for a certain demographic.

Now the exact details may vary, I don't see a huge difference between any such phenomenon in history. Be it Trump, or Il Duce, or Al Ghazali's return to a religious dumbassery that never actually existed in the first place, or you name it, the underlying catering to idiots with simplistic solution is the same.

Will America's tradition of democracy save it? We'll see. The caliphate has a longer tradition of tolerance and enlightenment when Al Ghazali and his followers turned it into institutionalized religious dumbassery, but it happened anyway. But we'll see.

But otherwise the underlying phenomenon is the same, and it doesn't really matter if it's a cult or a religion. It was a religion in Al Ghazali's case, and it worked the same, didn't it.
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Old 16th February 2019, 07:42 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Hmmm. Thinking about it, perhaps the best designation between cult and religion is the ratio of fanatics/true believers to casual believers? As this ratio moves towards 1, it is more cult-like.
I think the definition is really in what happens when the collection plate comes around. If you can pass it along without put anything in, you're in a religion. If you can't, it's a cult.
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Old 16th February 2019, 12:51 PM   #142
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Cults also seem to operate on a more local level, whereas Religions operate on a broader level (which is why they typically tend to associate with the government in non-secular countries)

So in that way, cults are more like the private enterprise, and Religions are like Government Agencies.

Cults tend to, in fact, criticize Religion, thus trying to differentiate themselves from it. A good example is Osho, who was a strong critic of Religion and of the concept of God. The ironic thing is that while I find Osho and his cult really repulsive (especially after watching Wild Wild Country), if you take a lot of what he said about Religion in isolation, it actually is a very sound and coherent critique of Religion. It's just that he wasn't precisely leading the example on how to lead a life based on critical thinking and individuality.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:21 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Cults also seem to operate on a more local level, [snip]
In general you're right but there are exceptions like the Ellrons.
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Old 18th February 2019, 06:55 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I think the definition is really in what happens when the collection plate comes around. If you can pass it along without put anything in, you're in a religion. If you can't, it's a cult.
Yeah, but I think that's more a symptom. That sort of "must contribute" type behavior will increase as the percentage of fanatics increase.

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Cults also seem to operate on a more local level, whereas Religions operate on a broader level (which is why they typically tend to associate with the government in non-secular countries)

So in that way, cults are more like the private enterprise, and Religions are like Government Agencies.

Cults tend to, in fact, criticize Religion, thus trying to differentiate themselves from it. A good example is Osho, who was a strong critic of Religion and of the concept of God. The ironic thing is that while I find Osho and his cult really repulsive (especially after watching Wild Wild Country), if you take a lot of what he said about Religion in isolation, it actually is a very sound and coherent critique of Religion. It's just that he wasn't precisely leading the example on how to lead a life based on critical thinking and individuality.
Again, I think this is more the function of a cult needing to be filled mostly with fanatics. It's harder to find those who will go along with that level of extremism in most cultures, and that keeps them small and on the fringes of society, which in turn keeps them clustered in smaller groups.

Thinking about this, though, could we consider something like ISIS as a cult? That would seem to be an example of a very cult-like organization that is not just local.
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Old 19th February 2019, 08:47 AM   #145
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The death of Linden LaRouche reminds me that there is such a thing as a secular cult.

Found this list:
https://listverse.com/2015/04/09/10-...ligious-cults/
Amusing to note that there are two of those groups started by Maoists.

Honestly, I think the local thing is a bit of a red herring. Its probably connected to cults' tendency to isolate its members from outsiders and that they generally start as a local branch of more established religions. That's easier to do if they are all in one place. There are a number of examples of fairly far flung cults. Children of God, Raelians, Solar Temple, Osha's group, etc.
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:09 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Tinfoil Hater View Post
As an atheist I regard all religions as superstitious cults . But for many there is a distinct difference between religions and cults. I have heard Scientology and Mormonism called cults as they call for practitioners to cut ties with family members who reject the faith. Isn't it the same with Islam and Christianity (Catholics, Amish).

Better yet- when is a religion NOT a cult?
I tend to think of a cult as being a group one is not free to leave? Or even if free to leave there are significant potential consequences to doing so (or fears of such)?

While a cult will also typically call for cutting family ties, isn't it for the reason of discouraging leaving or alternative views being presented to the cult member?
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:27 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
I tend to think of a cult as being a group one is not free to leave? Or even if free to leave there are significant potential consequences to doing so (or fears of such)?



While a cult will also typically call for cutting family ties, isn't it for the reason of discouraging leaving or alternative views being presented to the cult member?
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34–39)

Sounds like a cult leader to me.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:22 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34–39)

Sounds like a cult leader to me.
That guy died 2000 years ago.
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Old 19th February 2019, 04:34 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That guy died 2000 years ago.
If he even existed at all.
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Old 19th February 2019, 04:48 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34–39)

Sounds like a cult leader to me.
Also, that passage doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. At the time, Christianity was illegal and subversive. Jesus was warning his disciples that establishing his kingdom would not be all roses and happiness. Families would be divided and his followers would be persecuted. But it would all be worth it in the end when the Kingdom of Heaven arrives. He was not advocating Christians pick up swords and cast out their own families, he was warning Christians that their families would cast them out.

Or so the standard interpretation goes. I'm sure you'll see variations.
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Old 19th February 2019, 08:03 PM   #151
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My religion is the one true faith. Yours is a cult, and you are going straight to heck.
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Old 20th February 2019, 02:46 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Also, that passage doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. At the time, Christianity was illegal and subversive. Jesus was warning his disciples that establishing his kingdom would not be all roses and happiness. Families would be divided and his followers would be persecuted. But it would all be worth it in the end when the Kingdom of Heaven arrives. He was not advocating Christians pick up swords and cast out their own families, he was warning Christians that their families would cast them out.



Or so the standard interpretation goes. I'm sure you'll see variations.
Yeah, read lots of apologetics for that verse over the years. Amazing how people will tie themselves in knots.
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Old 20th February 2019, 04:59 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah, read lots of apologetics for that verse over the years. Amazing how people will tie themselves in knots.
Or maybe it really is more complicated than it seems.
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Old 20th February 2019, 07:25 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Or maybe it really is more complicated than it seems.
How does that follow from my comment.
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Old 20th February 2019, 08:59 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How does that follow from my comment.
You're essentially making a nonstandard, simplistic interpretation of a Bible passage, but claiming it's those who accept the regular interpretation who are tying themselves in knots.

Interpreting the Bible isn't simple. It's a vague and often confusing mishmash. Passages that on a simplistic reading seem to be saying one thing often say something different (*cough* Psalm 137:7-9 *cough*). It's more complicated than it seems.
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Old 20th February 2019, 09:32 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You're essentially making a nonstandard, simplistic interpretation of a Bible passage, but claiming it's those who accept the regular interpretation who are tying themselves in knots.



Interpreting the Bible isn't simple. It's a vague and often confusing mishmash. Passages that on a simplistic reading seem to be saying one thing often say something different (*cough* Psalm 137:7-9 *cough*). It's more complicated than it seems.
You lost me at the Huffpo link. Why not just link to the text itself? The article adblocked me. Is the author some sort of biblical scholar?
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Old 20th February 2019, 10:21 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You lost me at the Huffpo link. Why not just link to the text itself? The article adblocked me. Is the author some sort of biblical scholar?
I linked to an article that showed how important it is to not take a simplistic approach to Bible interpretation. Sorry that it was paywalled. It wasn't for me. I'll see if I can find a different one.

ETA here are a couple:

https://www.gotquestions.org/dashing...nst-rocks.html

https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-...rocks%E2%80%9D

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Old 21st February 2019, 03:07 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You're essentially making a nonstandard, simplistic interpretation of a Bible passage, but claiming it's those who accept the regular interpretation who are tying themselves in knots.



Interpreting the Bible isn't simple. It's a vague and often confusing mishmash. Passages that on a simplistic reading seem to be saying one thing often say something different (*cough* Psalm 137:7-9 *cough*). It's more complicated than it seems.
No I'm not, that is your biases that you are describing.
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Old 21st February 2019, 06:45 AM   #159
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Quite frankly, even with the interpretation it's still cult-like. "Your family members may turn against you, listen to me over them." Seems pretty much cult 101.
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Old 21st February 2019, 09:59 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Quite frankly, even with the interpretation it's still cult-like. "Your family members may turn against you, listen to me over them." Seems pretty much cult 101.
Sure, but its not exactly how most mainline modern Christian churches operate either.

In modern usage, the label cult is much more about the behavior of the organization than the beliefs. The christian bible says all sorts of crazy ****. Do former catholics get shunned by their families? Are former Lutherans threatened by their former co-religionionists? Do Anglicans require believers to turn over most of their wages or work in the church run restaurant?
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