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Old 10th February 2019, 07:52 PM   #761
kellyb
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The religious have not brainwashed anyone with a single lie (that god exists) They have brainwashed you with several, all carefully constructed to stop you from leaving the congregation.

When one sits down and carefully consider it, the whole facade is constructed out of complicated "gotcha"s meticulously built to make it difficult to walk away.
Yeah. Coming from fundy Southern Baptist, the trap went like this:

Not only does god exist, but also...
Satan exist, too, and is constantly whispering in the ears of believers as part of an invisible spiritual warfare battle going on behind the scenes, and...
Only our theology is free of demonic, satanic influence.
And also, if you have any thoughts questioning the church's theology, those are thoughts coming from a demon, so...
You must pray and beg for God to keep you safe during this satanic attack, or...
HELLFIRE BRIMSTONE ETERNAL TORTURE HELL
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Old 10th February 2019, 08:47 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah. Coming from fundy Southern Baptist, the trap went like this:

Not only does god exist, but also...
Satan exist, too, and is constantly whispering in the ears of believers as part of an invisible spiritual warfare battle going on behind the scenes, and...
Only our theology is free of demonic, satanic influence.
And also, if you have any thoughts questioning the church's theology, those are thoughts coming from a demon, so...
You must pray and beg for God to keep you safe during this satanic attack, or...
HELLFIRE BRIMSTONE ETERNAL TORTURE HELL
That sounds familiar. My church was happy-clappy on the surface, but there was always that not-so-subtle undercurrent.
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Old 10th February 2019, 09:17 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
More correctly that should read "religion exclusive".
Yup!
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Old 10th February 2019, 09:30 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah. Coming from fundy Southern Baptist, the trap went like this:

Not only does god exist, but also...
Satan exist, too, and is constantly whispering in the ears of believers as part of an invisible spiritual warfare battle going on behind the scenes, and...
Only our theology is free of demonic, satanic influence.
And also, if you have any thoughts questioning the church's theology, those are thoughts coming from a demon, so...
You must pray and beg for God to keep you safe during this satanic attack, or...
HELLFIRE BRIMSTONE ETERNAL TORTURE HELL
I think the watershed moment for me was during a Wednesday evening Bible study at my grandmother's Baptist church.
One of the adult members asked how he would be able to be happy in Heaven if he could look down into Hell and see his loved ones who hadn't accepted Christ as their savior suffering torments.

The adult Sunday School teacher answered him that he was "thinking with a carnal mind."

My very carnal body/mind with its mirror neurons and hormones such as oxytocin, My very Primate, Human species, and my desire to see myself and others as sentient beings said to me, "That's just wrong!"

Later I moved to a denomination that didn't have Hell (Seventh-Day Adventist) and eventually repudiated that entire culture of punishment.
Is it any wonder that people who believe this crap fawn all over Trump?
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Old 10th February 2019, 10:34 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You really haven't paid attention to anything I have said, have you?

Not a lot no.

But then I'm not alone.
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Old 10th February 2019, 11:06 PM   #766
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I'm done trying to educate you, then. Do your own research.
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Old 10th February 2019, 11:20 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm done trying to educate you, then. Do your own research.
Just chiming in as part of the lurker crowd on that issue to say I agree with you and know exactly what you're talking about.
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Old 10th February 2019, 11:32 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Just chiming in as part of the lurker crowd on that issue to say I agree with you and know exactly what you're talking about.
Thank you.

Uh... I mean "I don't need your validation!"

Yeah.
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Old 10th February 2019, 11:58 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah. Coming from fundy Southern Baptist, the trap went like this:

Not only does god exist, but also...
Satan exist, too, and is constantly whispering in the ears of believers as part of an invisible spiritual warfare battle going on behind the scenes, and...
Only our theology is free of demonic, satanic influence.
And also, if you have any thoughts questioning the church's theology, those are thoughts coming from a demon, so...
You must pray and beg for God to keep you safe during this satanic attack, or...
HELLFIRE BRIMSTONE ETERNAL TORTURE HELL

That sounds exactly like what people were preaching in biblical times ... where beliefs like that were a constant day-long influence every day in the lives of almost everyone ... it sounds as if the churces and preachers you're talking about have not progressed in their understanding of the world since thousands of years ago.
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:09 AM   #770
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
That sounds exactly like what people were preaching in biblical times ... where beliefs like that were a constant day-long influence every day in the lives of almost everyone ... it sounds as if the churces and preachers you're talking about have not progressed in their understanding of the world since thousands of years ago.
Yeah, I went to a creepy little private fundy school where we had an hour of bible class every day, everyone went to church 2 nights a week, minimum, etc. Nobody was supposed to watch "secular" TV or movies, or read "secular" books, or listen to "secular" music, or have non-christian friends.

In 6th grade, they brought in some "cult specialists" to give a presentation, and it was kinds funny seeing the hands being raised as we all were collectively asking "Wait...but we're not a cult, why and how, again? "Because we're actually right" is almost certainly what those other guys think, too, isn't it?" lol
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:30 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm done trying to educate you, then. Do your own research.
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Just chiming in as part of the lurker crowd on that issue to say I agree with you and know exactly what you're talking about.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Thank you.

Uh... I mean "I don't need your validation!"

Yeah.
Granted, you need my validation even less but I agree with Kellyb.
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:26 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, I went to a creepy little private fundy school where we had an hour of bible class every day, everyone went to church 2 nights a week, minimum, etc. Nobody was supposed to watch "secular" TV or movies, or read "secular" books, or listen to "secular" music, or have non-christian friends.

In 6th grade, they brought in some "cult specialists" to give a presentation, and it was kinds funny seeing the hands being raised as we all were collectively asking "Wait...but we're not a cult, why and how, again? "Because we're actually right" is almost certainly what those other guys think, too, isn't it?" lol

That sounds quite shocking to me.

Were your parents happy with that sort of teaching?

To me it sounds like quite extreme religious indoctrination (though I live in the UK where schools like that are virtually unheard of … except that there are apparently a few private religious schools that teach creationism … I don't think they are legally allowed to teach that to junior age kids, but it seems they are doing it anyway … Richard Dawkins made a YouTube film about it).

On a slight tangent – I was looking on YouTube for theists vs atheist debates, and I came across a US preacher named Sye Ten Bruggencate (and a guy called Jeff Durbin) who call themselves “presuppositionalists”. I expect most US members here are very familiar Bruggencate and his fellow preachers, though I only noticed them a week ago.

But I was surprised at the extreme way they were preaching religion (quite an aggressive way as well), e.g. preaching that God is proven because “the bible is complete proof of God by definition”. And where they were constantly arguing from a standpoint of Hard Solipsism, i.e. claiming that no atheist opponent had any claim on anything because atheists cannot know that they are real people or that any part of the universe is real (whereas presuppositionalists can know for certain that God is proved real by the existence of the bible) .
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:44 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
That sounds quite shocking to me.

Were your parents happy with that sort of teaching?

To me it sounds like quite extreme religious indoctrination (though I live in the UK where schools like that are virtually unheard of … except that there are apparently a few private religious schools that teach creationism … I don't think they are legally allowed to teach that to junior age kids, but it seems they are doing it anyway … Richard Dawkins made a YouTube film about it).

On a slight tangent – I was looking on YouTube for theists vs atheist debates, and I came across a US preacher named Sye Ten Bruggencate (and a guy called Jeff Durbin) who call themselves “presuppositionalists”. I expect most US members here are very familiar Bruggencate and his fellow preachers, though I only noticed them a week ago.

But I was surprised at the extreme way they were preaching religion (quite an aggressive way as well), e.g. preaching that God is proven because “the bible is complete proof of God by definition”. And where they were constantly arguing from a standpoint of Hard Solipsism, i.e. claiming that no atheist opponent had any claim on anything because atheists cannot know that they are real people or that any part of the universe is real (whereas presuppositionalists can know for certain that God is proved real by the existence of the bible) .
It was primarily my grandparents who raised me (and sent me to the school) and they were overall fine with it. My grandfather was big in the local Republican Party here in the Bible Belt (I'm in the deep south) and told me to just fake like I believed it all (he said the purpose of church was to make business connections, be seen, etc), and he encouraged me to watch PBS science/nature documentaries in secret. lol

Quote:
God is proven because “the bible is complete proof of God by definition”.
^^ yep, that's the logic. Also, "We know our church's theology is correct, because our pastor says it is. And we know the pastor is correct, because he's the pastor, and the Bible says "there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.".

Sort of a "divine right of kings" argument, just applied to not questioning even the smallest nuance in the church's theology.
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:51 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
On a slight tangent – I was looking on YouTube for theists vs atheist debates, and I came across a US preacher named Sye Ten Bruggencate (and a guy called Jeff Durbin) who call themselves “presuppositionalists”. I expect most US members here are very familiar Bruggencate and his fellow preachers, though I only noticed them a week ago.

But I was surprised at the extreme way they were preaching religion (quite an aggressive way as well), e.g. preaching that God is proven because “the bible is complete proof of God by definition”. And where they were constantly arguing from a standpoint of Hard Solipsism, i.e. claiming that no atheist opponent had any claim on anything because atheists cannot know that they are real people or that any part of the universe is real (whereas presuppositionalists can know for certain that God is proved real by the existence of the bible) .
I learned about presuppositionalism by listening to the Reasonable Doubts podcast, just like I learned about a lot of aspects of religion that weren't direct parts of the church I attended.

I would recommend it, but it sadly ended several years ago. Fortunately it appears that the archived episodes are still available. It was a really well-researched and measured nontheist approach to religion.
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Old 11th February 2019, 07:11 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I quoted exactly what I was responding to (as hilited below) which I repeat again was the "positive traits that are helpful for cultivating them".

The simple point I was trying to make is that "positive" is subjective, hence the question . . .

It's not a "biggy" so I'm happy to let it go if you don't want to answer that question.
Ah. I think we were using the word "cultivating them" differently. I meant the traits and I think you meant the people. Anyway, you're asking if I think those are examples positive traits? That's a complicated question. I don't think of abortion and euthanasia as "positive", more sad, though I can understand how either can be the better of several difficult options. Homosexuality is very unappealing to me, but so is some foreign cuisine, so I don't consider that a plumb-line for anything beyond my personal tastes and preferences. Homosexual people (and foreigners, just to be clear) that I've known represent the regular spectrum of people and personalities as any other demographic; which is to say I like most that I've met very much.

Hope I've finally managed to decently answer your question.
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Old 11th February 2019, 07:43 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well it can even be worse than what I outlined before.

I recall visiting one village and seeing two churches. It being a small village I was surprised and asked my guide how come. "Oh" he said, "They are different. One is Christian and the other Catholic."

As you can imagine I found this quite amusing, as I pictured the thought of a Catholic hearing his religion being described as something other than Christian. On further deliberation however, I could see an even worse schism having developed there. Not only was the original fabric of the village being torn, but a mini Northern Ireland developed.
Many Catholics I've met actually actually answer "I'm a catholic.", sometimes with a leading "No," when asked if they are a Christian.


Quote:
Steady on there. To call an atheists ardency "religious" is like a red flag to the bull.

Glad you are getting something out of the discussion however.
Laugh. Yeah, risky move. Thanks Thor 2.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:20 PM   #777
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Even if a religious war doesn't develop, the village schism Thor2 described diverts resources, energy, and funds from the physical, social, health, and economic needs of the villagers, and puts them toward the building and maintaining of the church structures and the church hierarchy in the village.

But that's okay, their eternal souls are saved, or at least the souls of the ones who pick the True Religion.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:54 PM   #778
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I want to comment on one of the three topics that ynot raised: homosexuality.

Most Christian denominations teach that not only is same-sex sexual activity unnatural, it is a sin. In fact, the "sin" claim is even worse than the "unnatural" claim.

But what does unnatural mean, and is the claim justified? Here is Wikipedia:

Quote:
Homosexual behavior in animals is sexual behavior among non-human species that is interpreted as homosexual or bisexual. This may include same-sex sexual activity, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting among same-sex animal pairs.[...] Research indicates that various forms of this are found in every major geographic region and every major animal group. The sexual behavior of non-human animals takes many different forms, even within the same species, though homosexual behavior is best known from social species.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...ior_in_animals

If this behavior exists among other species, all of which were supposedly created by the Christian version of a god, how can the behavior be unnatural? Why don't the preachers, ministers, priests condemn sheep for their behavior? (Wrong flock, perhaps?)

The sin claim is even more absurd, because it rests not just on the "non-natural" argument but on the definition of sin. Sin describes a group of behaviors enumerated by a particular unprovable being to constrain the behavior of a species that has (almost) all the biological traits of the other species to which it is closely related, and for which the behaviors are not "sins."

Other unprovable beings, according to the doctrines of their followers, don't proscribe the behavior, or actually encourage it, or just don't mention it. If it's unnatural, why isn't it unnatural everywhere, and if it's a sin, why isn't it considered a sin everywhere and by every religion?

People who argue against provable, objective facts in favor of unprovable delusions or unsubstantiated claims may not be "mad," but they certainly have a less than total grasp of reality in that aspect of their lives.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:00 PM   #779
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Hey Xterra. No argument from me on either of those last two posts.

I don't really know much about the long-term history of anti-homosexual sentiment/laws/practices. Maybe someone here can shine a light on the origins, or perhaps cyclical nature of these things. One can certainly associate anti-homosexual teaching with religions, but if these religions are simply cultural memes, as has been suggested here, what is the actual origin?

Maybe this should be fodder for a separate thread?
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:15 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Ah. I think we were using the word "cultivating them" differently. I meant the traits and I think you meant the people. Anyway, you're asking if I think those are examples positive traits? That's a complicated question. I don't think of abortion and euthanasia as "positive", more sad, though I can understand how either can be the better of several difficult options. Homosexuality is very unappealing to me, but so is some foreign cuisine, so I don't consider that a plumb-line for anything beyond my personal tastes and preferences. Homosexual people (and foreigners, just to be clear) that I've known represent the regular spectrum of people and personalities as any other demographic; which is to say I like most that I've met very much.

Hope I've finally managed to decently answer your question.
I didn't distinguish between the two. I meant the traits of people (don't see how they can be separated). We still seem to have a disconnect, but thanks for replying anyway. Let's forget it and move on .

ETA - Seems we at least have similar views regarding abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:23 PM   #781
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It is my understanding that in Christianity, the laws go back to the Old Testament, as you call it. I don't think we need a new thread; this is still a discussion of believing things that are not true, that do not match reality, that can only be defended on the basis of "faith," whatever that means.

The minor point was that same-sex unions are not unnatural.

The real point is that "sin," in terms of consensual sexual conduct, is a construct of religion, with no basis in reality.

Non-consensual sexual conduct is criminal assault.


EDIT -- Furthermore, the religious excoriation of homosexuality has had and continues to have fatal consequences for many people in this supposedly enlightened society -- by which I mean the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and other primarily-Christian nations. This is a sterling example of how religion causes harm.


xterra


(who never capitalizes his name)
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:40 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It was primarily my grandparents who raised me (and sent me to the school) and they were overall fine with it. My grandfather was big in the local Republican Party here in the Bible Belt (I'm in the deep south) and told me to just fake like I believed it all (he said the purpose of church was to make business connections, be seen, etc), and he encouraged me to watch PBS science/nature documentaries in secret. lol

Sounds like your grandfather was something of a realist and opportunist also. Although his faith was not that strong he saw no problem in seeing you got a good dose of it. I can relate to this.

My parents were not church goers*, but I was dragged to church (my heels leaving furrows in the ground), by another family of a friend who were church goers. I disliked it intensely, as I found the atmosphere of the church repulsive.

None the less the teaching stuck and I was in a state of torment for some years later. Believing in the truth of Christianity, but repelled by the church atmosphere so I didn't attend, I felt I was destined for Hell. I think I was on the road to insanity, until Bertrand Russell saved me when I was 16 - as I may have mentioned to you before.


* The idea that a bit of religion would do you some good prevailed.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:41 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
that can only be defended on the basis of "faith," whatever that means.
Claiming religious faith is merely a defense by obfuscation (the action of making something obscure, unclear, or unintelligible).

That theists readily accept "faith" and "god-fearing" are some kind of desirable virtues has always puzzled me. Is there something I'm missing?

Originally Posted by xterra View Post
The real point is that "sin," in terms of consensual sexual conduct, is a construct of religion, with no basis in reality.
"Sin" is a construct of religion in terms of all things "god" doesn't like, with no basis in reality.
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Old 12th February 2019, 02:50 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post

That theists readily accept "faith" and "god-fearing" are some kind of desirable virtues has always puzzled me. Is there something I'm missing?


The simultaneous loving and fearing is what I have most difficulty with.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 10:12

And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

No wonder it drives the faithful nuts.
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:09 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The simultaneous loving and fearing is what I have most difficulty with.
I could understand love and respect, but respect only goes with love if it's for the good of the thing rather than for the threat of the thing.

Just another cognitive dissonance issue theists need to compartmentalize and hand-wave away with faith (or ignore).

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
No wonder it drives the faithful nuts.
Well they were already nuts for believing any of it to begin with
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Last edited by ynot; 12th February 2019 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:57 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I didn't distinguish between the two. I meant the traits of people (don't see how they can be separated). We still seem to have a disconnect, but thanks for replying anyway. Let's forget it and move on .

ETA - Seems we at least have similar views regarding abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality.
Sounds good all 'round
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:16 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
It is my understanding that in Christianity, the laws go back to the Old Testament, as you call it. I don't think we need a new thread; this is still a discussion of believing things that are not true, that do not match reality, that can only be defended on the basis of "faith," whatever that means.

The minor point was that same-sex unions are not unnatural.

The real point is that "sin," in terms of consensual sexual conduct, is a construct of religion, with no basis in reality.

Non-consensual sexual conduct is criminal assault.


EDIT -- Furthermore, the religious excoriation of homosexuality has had and continues to have fatal consequences for many people in this supposedly enlightened society -- by which I mean the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and other primarily-Christian nations. This is a sterling example of how religion causes harm.


xterra


(who never capitalizes his name)
Right. (lowercase x) xterra. But the point has been made pretty convincingly here that religion is just a cultural construct. So while it can certainly contribute to the propagation and continuation of anti-homosexual ideas, it seems it cannot be the origin. I imagine the sentiment has a long and convoluted history, in many cultures both within and without the context of various religions, but that, in my opinion, is a topic for another thread.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:35 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the last... 2 and a half years or so hasn't nailed a lid on the "What's the harm?" excuse when discussing holding actual opinions about how the world works with are either provably wrong or evidence-free I really don't know what to say anymore.

The problem is when we promote the idea that irrationality is just hunky-dory when it by random chance happens to lead to a good outcome, we've tied out own hands when the winds change and the outcome turns bad.

If you give your sweet Aunt Mae a pass on reading goat entrails because the goat entrails tell her to give to the poor, the blood is own your hands the day the entrails tell her to strap C4, ball bearings, and rat poison to herself and detonate outside an orphanage.
This does not reflect the common experience of the vast majority of people who embrace religion. Most people, as demonstrated by the fact that we are all still here, don’t act completely irrationally when confronted with radical ideas. We aren’t all cult members and it’s unfair to lump everyone into that kind of thinking.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:16 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Right. (lowercase x) xterra. But the point has been made pretty convincingly here that religion is just a cultural construct. So while it can certainly contribute to the propagation and continuation of anti-homosexual ideas, it seems it cannot be the origin. I imagine the sentiment has a long and convoluted history, in many cultures both within and without the context of various religions, but that, in my opinion, is a topic for another thread.
I missed the post where you agreed with this statement.

Do you now agree that there's nothing "to" religion, or are you still struggling?
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:34 PM   #790
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This does not reflect the common experience of the vast majority of people who embrace religion. Most people, as demonstrated by the fact that we are all still here, don’t act completely irrationally when confronted with radical ideas. We aren’t all cult members and it’s unfair to lump everyone into that kind of thinking.

Possibly Joe's example of irrationality was a little extreme, when talking of the majority of religion embracers, but other less dramatic examples are commonplace. People who picket abortion clinics, and hold up signs condemning same sex marriage, may be a small proportion of the religious set, but those voting in line with these sentiments are not.

There is a radio station called "Vision" in Australia and all the presenters are convinced we are in "End Times" now. They are absolutely delighted about the prospect, and point to the "obvious" indicators heralding the "End of the World". Nuclear war, mass migration of refugees, global warming ........ bring it on - hallelujah!

How extreme is this thinking among mainstream faithful I wonder. Politicians who are religious seem to be the bulk of the climate change deniers. Why is that?
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Old 13th February 2019, 04:54 PM   #791
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They've always been convinced we're in the end times. Ever since Revelation was penned, people have been saying that the end is nigh. It certainly makes me wonder why they haven't got the message yet, but I wouldn't call it mental illness.
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Old 13th February 2019, 05:28 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They've always been convinced we're in the end times. Ever since Revelation was penned, people have been saying that the end is nigh. It certainly makes me wonder why they haven't got the message yet, but I wouldn't call it mental illness.
Back in my Christian youth, I was pretty sure Jesus would come near about 1976. I wasn't really looking forward to this, as it meant that was wasting my time on a college education and my career ambitions would be chucked in the wastebasket for whatever job Heaven would require of me. Also I'd escaped from an emotionally abusive home, but by the terms of Christian salvation, my awful grandmother would be in Heaven as well, and making a Hell of the place.

Prior to the dreadful year, I came to understand the interpretations of Bible prophecy that led to it being the apocalypse were baseless.

The year came without me even wondering when Jesus was supposed to return. A friend argued that the whole plan of a Second Advent had been scrapped by Heaven because Christianity was a failure. I had no objection to that.
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Old 13th February 2019, 06:15 PM   #793
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Christianity a failure!

Emre will jump on this one.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:38 PM   #794
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
I missed the post where you agreed with this statement.

Do you now agree that there's nothing "to" religion, or are you still struggling?
Still thinking, listening, and learning.
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:22 PM   #795
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Still thinking, listening, and learning.

Those are all good things to do....
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:17 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Christianity a failure!

Emre will jump on this one.
According to college friend, John K: First the Elohim attempted to create a holy, righteous nation as an example and eventual global theocratic hegemony. This was the Era of The Father. But from the start the Hebrew people didn't get with the program. They wanted a king instead of divinely inspired judges, and they couldn't keep God's laws.

So the Elohim presented a new covenant creating a holy community. This was the era of The Son. But that became religious cults, sects, and preoccupations with dogma. It failed to transform the world. The plan was Jesus would return for his people and create a New Heavens and New Earth. However, very soon there just wasn't a holy people.

Now, according to John K., we have entered the Age of the Holy Spirit where the emphasis is on the individual. Individuals will experience transformation and transfiguration. Christ will not come in the clouds to take up a group of people, but Christ comes for his own at their death. And his own aren't necessarily Christians, or even believe in God.

I've heard over the years the excuse of why Jesus hasn't returned yet being that his people aren't ready yet. Sorry, Jesus. They just aren't getting any more ready.
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Old 14th February 2019, 02:28 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Politicians who are religious seem to be the bulk of the climate change deniers. Why is that?

They don't believe in evaporation.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th February 2019, 02:45 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In 6th grade, they brought in some "cult specialists" to give a presentation, and it was kinds funny seeing the hands being raised as we all were collectively asking "Wait...but we're not a cult, why and how, again? "Because we're actually right" is almost certainly what those other guys think, too, isn't it?" lol

Why did they bring in the "cult specialists"?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th February 2019, 01:27 PM   #799
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
According to college friend, John K: First the Elohim attempted to create a holy, righteous nation as an example and eventual global theocratic hegemony. This was the Era of The Father. But from the start the Hebrew people didn't get with the program. They wanted a king instead of divinely inspired judges, and they couldn't keep God's laws.

So the Elohim presented a new covenant creating a holy community. This was the era of The Son. But that became religious cults, sects, and preoccupations with dogma. It failed to transform the world. The plan was Jesus would return for his people and create a New Heavens and New Earth. However, very soon there just wasn't a holy people.

Now, according to John K., we have entered the Age of the Holy Spirit where the emphasis is on the individual. Individuals will experience transformation and transfiguration. Christ will not come in the clouds to take up a group of people, but Christ comes for his own at their death. And his own aren't necessarily Christians, or even believe in God.

I've heard over the years the excuse of why Jesus hasn't returned yet being that his people aren't ready yet. Sorry, Jesus. They just aren't getting any more ready.

Lots of eras.

The one thing that comes out load and clear is the God of Abraham is a master of screw ups.

1. He makes Adam and Eve perfect but they turn out flawed - their own fault of course.

2. He drowns the lot accept for Noah and family but this goes pear shaped as well.

3. He decides to have a special chosen people and screw the rest. Alas, no joy here either.

4. Sends down His son to take the wrap as a sacrifice but many will not buy into this because ..... well .... it's just plain silly.

5. The Islamists now tell us Muhammad tuned everything up and came up with the final word ....... sigh.

(Won't make any mention of Joh Smith and the Latter Day Sillies because the absurdity meter goes off the scale with this one.)
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Old 14th February 2019, 01:33 PM   #800
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Lots of eras.

The one thing that comes out load and clear is the God of Abraham is a master of screw ups.

1. He makes Adam and Eve perfect but they turn out flawed - their own fault of course.

2. He drowns the lot accept for Noah and family but this goes pear shaped as well.

3. He decides to have a special chosen people and screw the rest. Alas, no joy here either.

4. Sends down His son to take the wrap as a sacrifice but many will not buy into this because ..... well .... it's just plain silly.

5. The Islamists now tell us Muhammad tuned everything up and came up with the final word ....... sigh.

(Won't make any mention of Joh Smith and the Latter Day Sillies because the absurdity meter goes off the scale with this one.)
Talking about "eras" and "load" screw ups . . .
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