IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th November 2020, 07:46 AM   #401
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Guy goes to the bank to get a small business loan. He's got an idea for a do-it-yourself bakery, where he supplies the ingredients, the bowls, the ovens, and the instructions, and people can come bake their own cookies and whatnot. He manages to sell the bank on that idea, so they loan him $100K to start it up.

Guy spends that money to get up and running... but the idea just doesn't take off. People don't seem all that interested in traveling to his shop to do something they can do in their own homes just as easily. Guy's business goes bust.

He goes back to the bank and says "That didn't work out, and I can't pay the loan back".

Is it reasonable for the bank to say "Oh, it didn't turn out the way you thought it would, so you don't have to pay back the money you borrowed. It's okay, we forgive the loan"?
Yes, it is reasonable. In fact it's economically beneficial because it encourages risk taking and entrepreneurialism. There is a well established legal mechanism for doing exactly this. It's called bankruptcy law.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2020, 07:56 AM   #402
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,860
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Yes, it is reasonable. In fact it's economically beneficial because it encourages risk taking and entrepreneurialism. There is a well established legal mechanism for doing exactly this. It's called bankruptcy law.
It's not economically beneficial for the bank, though. It may or may not be economically beneficial for society at large, but the bank's eating the loss. This will make them less inclined to lend money to other people.

Bankruptcy is like amputation of a limb: sometimes it's necessary, and better than not doing it, but it's not a desirable treatment and should never be relied upon as a reasonable outcome. Ideally we want to avoid disaster, not merely ameliorate it when it happens.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2020, 08:16 AM   #403
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,009
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because not everyone is getting debts forgiven. Is the exchange of favors, out of niceness, alien to you? My parents fed and housed me when I was a kid, I certainly didn't pay them back equivalently for that but I did mow the lawn several hundred times.

I'm not "getting pissy". As I said several times already, including the post you responded to, I'm not against debt forgiveness. I just think it would be nice if people getting such a lovely gift from the public did something nice for the public. As thanks. Which today of all days if you're American ought not to be an alien concept!
Informal rules of niceness and etiquette are great for individuals, but should be kept as far as humanly possible from any kind of government function.

One of the things I'm thankful for is not living in a country where my life depends on some stranger deciding if I've been nice enough to repay a favor.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 26th November 2020 at 08:18 AM.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2020, 09:03 AM   #404
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post

Prestige's question is a good one. Had I not been priced out of the education market, I might have reached a level of employment that would have paid back the loans in only a few years. At this point, having seen no return at all on investment, doe you see why I'm reluctant to risk more?
The underlying logic is flawed. We should not just be considering the risk/reward for the individual involved. When people are productive only a part of the fruits of that productivity flow back to them, their employer benefits, so does the employers customers, so do the business that sell services to that person. In fact there is an economy wide trickle down benefit not being accounted for if you just do a cost-benefit analysis for a single person..

On a per person basis this may be large in some cases, small or even zero in others but added up over tens of millions of employees the net gain economy wide is huge and everyone who participates in that economy benefits from it.

A second issue is that for much of the money university students spend isn't directly funding their education, rather it's funding the overall operation of the University, which in turn is helping that University participate in the basic research most of our knowledge and economic success ultimately arise from. How much time does a typical university professor spend teaching, in most cases it's a relatively small amount. Maybe a little more if you add in graduate courses, but graduate students are also supposed to be adding and contributing to our overall knowledge and understanding. Again the overall public benefit not accounted for just by looking at cost-benefit to an individual student is huge.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2020, 09:11 AM   #405
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not economically beneficial for the bank, though. It may or may not be economically beneficial for society at large, but the bank's eating the loss. This will make them less inclined to lend money to other people.

Bankruptcy is like amputation of a limb: sometimes it's necessary, and better than not doing it, but it's not a desirable treatment and should never be relied upon as a reasonable outcome. Ideally we want to avoid disaster, not merely ameliorate it when it happens.
In the early the early to mid 1800's the US had bankruptcy laws Britain had debtors prison. Bankruptcy laws proved to be a large economic advantage for the US and was a major factor in higher US growth, higher US productivity and higher US standards of living. Lenders took a hit, but the spin off economic benefits far outweigh it, even for the banks themselves.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2020, 11:49 AM   #406
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,860
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
In the early the early to mid 1800's the US had bankruptcy laws Britain had debtors prison. Bankruptcy laws proved to be a large economic advantage for the US and was a major factor in higher US growth, higher US productivity and higher US standards of living. Lenders took a hit, but the spin off economic benefits far outweigh it, even for the banks themselves.
I'm not saying bankruptcy law is worse than not having bankruptcy law, I'm saying it's insufficient to solve the problem.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2020, 01:28 PM   #407
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 26,335
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There's a point where rewarding people for having made bad decisions is really just not a good idea.
This is where the disconnect is. You see the forgiveness of predatory education loans as a "reward" to irresponsible people. I see them as more a combination of humanitarian aid - essentially a form of financial disaster assistance - and restitution for having been victimized as a teenager by a financial entrapment scheme. Because of these point-of-view differences we're not likely to ever see eye to eye on this issue.
__________________
"ŅWHAT KIND OF BIRD?
ŅA PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2020, 10:29 AM   #408
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Prestige's question is a good one. Had I not been priced out of the education market, I might have reached a level of employment that would have paid back the loans in only a few years. At this point, having seen no return at all on investment, doe you see why I'm reluctant to risk more?
I'm glad you think my question is a good one. I don't see how this answers it, though. You got a degree. Degree-related jobs pay well, yes? So you start earning, you support yourself, and you have a little left over every month to pay towards the loan. Sure, the education was expensive, and it'll take a while to pay off, but so what? You knew that going in, right?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2020, 10:35 AM   #409
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I also worked my way out of student debt. It was a crappy situation and I wouldn't wish it on anyone
This is the part I don't get. Debt isn't automatically a bad thing. Borrowing money for some fruitful purpose, and repaying the lender with some of that fruit, is generally viewed as a positive thing. What made it so crappy for you?

And you did wish it on someone - yourself. Did you not know what you were getting into at the time? Did a wealthy scoundrel seduce and betray you or something?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2020, 10:45 AM   #410
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The underlying logic is flawed. We should not just be considering the risk/reward for the individual involved. When people are productive only a part of the fruits of that productivity flow back to them, their employer benefits, so does the employers customers, so do the business that sell services to that person. In fact there is an economy wide trickle down benefit not being accounted for if you just do a cost-benefit analysis for a single person.
Two things: First, the individual who borrows the money should absolutely be considering the risk/reward for themselves. Regardless of how much society benefits from their education, they still have a debt to pay off.

Second, as the lender, taxpayers and their government representatives should also absolutely be considering the risk/reward to our society, from making these kinds of investments. If we need more, better schoolteachers, then we should lend money specifically for that purpose. And if schoolteaching just isn't profitable, then we should give this money, not lend it.

If these loans are so productive and beneficial for society, how come we're talking about forgiving them?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2020, 12:09 PM   #411
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,803
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And if schoolteaching just isn't profitable, then we should give this money, not lend it.

If these loans are so productive and beneficial for society, how come we're talking about forgiving them?
I think you're striking gold right here. I have an answer though--We absolutely should be granting money instead of lending, for a vital field like schoolteaching. The reason we're not is because there's a dogpile of "socialism!" on any perceived giveaway. The idea that we're buying something with that money is lost. So the only option that passes is half-assed measures.
__________________


Last edited by gnome; 29th November 2020 at 12:12 PM.
gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2020, 07:42 PM   #412
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
 
Silly Green Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,188
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm glad you think my question is a good one. I don't see how this answers it, though. You got a degree. Degree-related jobs pay well, yes? So you start earning, you support yourself, and you have a little left over every month to pay towards the loan. Sure, the education was expensive, and it'll take a while to pay off, but so what? You knew that going in, right?
I got my degree in 2005, and while I'm sure degree-related jobs do pay well, the newspaper delivery job I got did not. It did however occupy my time so that I didn't have time during the day when places were open to try finding another job. When cancer ended that job, my sister got me a job in a call center. That also doesn't pay well. Now I make even less, and if I want to try to scrape the rust off, pay another chunk of money I don't have and get a certification that employers require in order to start training me for the job all of which doesn't seem worth the risk to me. I was priced out of education in 2007, and I'm still priced out now.
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype.
Silly Green Monkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 06:17 AM   #413
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because not everyone is getting debts forgiven. Is the exchange of favors, out of niceness, alien to you? My parents fed and housed me when I was a kid, I certainly didn't pay them back equivalently for that but I did mow the lawn several hundred times.



I'm not "getting pissy". As I said several times already, including the post you responded to, I'm not against debt forgiveness. I just think it would be nice if people getting such a lovely gift from the public did something nice for the public. As thanks. Which today of all days if you're American ought not to be an alien concept!
Perhaps, but any notion of gratitude or community spirit is dead the moment such a scheme becomes formalized as a compulsory program.

For example, it would be nice if criminals that injured broader society engaged in labor to show contrition and a spirit of restitution, but we all know how prison slave-labor supply has very little to do with honest contrition.

There's plenty of ways for people who have benefited from government services to show gratitude. The best way is to remember that government exists to help people, and that they should support such efforts even when they don't directly benefit themselves. They can show gratitude by not selling off the ladders that were provided to them to climb out of poverty after they reach the top and by refusing a "**** you, I got mine" attitude that has so infected our country.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 08:27 AM   #414
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I got my degree in 2005, and while I'm sure degree-related jobs do pay well, the newspaper delivery job I got did not. It did however occupy my time so that I didn't have time during the day when places were open to try finding another job. When cancer ended that job, my sister got me a job in a call center. That also doesn't pay well. Now I make even less, and if I want to try to scrape the rust off, pay another chunk of money I don't have and get a certification that employers require in order to start training me for the job all of which doesn't seem worth the risk to me. I was priced out of education in 2007, and I'm still priced out now.
You weren't priced out of education, though. You got generous loans that paid for your education. You got a degree, even a degree in a field that actually pays well. I'm not sure what you got priced out of, but it wasn't education. It sounds like you probably should have passed on the newspaper delivery job, and committed to the internship/certification/training track for your degreed career. For the taxpayer, it seems like this loan for this degree was a bad investment. And for you, too, it seems like it was a bad investment.

Going back to TM's proposal, it seems like doing unskilled public service for a living wage, and keeping all of that wage, is probably a better loan repayment option than doing other unskilled work and giving up part of your wage to pay off your student loan debt. I'm not sure why you're so offended by the idea. Do you not want to pay off the debt?

Last edited by theprestige; 30th November 2020 at 08:30 AM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 09:57 AM   #415
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Two things: First, the individual who borrows the money should absolutely be considering the risk/reward for themselves.
I never said anything about that. The issue is that when you disassociate individual decisions with external costs/benefits it's incentivises making decisions that are bad for both the economy and society as a whole. It literally promotes economic inefficiency, lower economic growth and lower standards of living all-round.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Regardless of how much society benefits from their education, they still have a debt to pay off.
Except this debt is treated differently than other debt is that the same bankruptcy laws don't apply to it.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

Second, as the lender, taxpayers and their government representatives should also absolutely be considering the risk/reward to our society, from making these kinds of investments. If we need more, better schoolteachers, then we should lend money specifically for that purpose.

Nah, that smacks of a Command Economy, and we have more that enough data to show those don't work.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And if schoolteaching just isn't profitable, then we should give this money, not lend it.
Making post secondary education free would be the best solution, but it should be open to any university collage or trades training.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If these loans are so productive and beneficial for society, how come we're talking about forgiving them?
Because society took all the benefits and left only some people paying the costs.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 10:05 AM   #416
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Nah, that smacks of a Command Economy, and we have more that enough data to show those don't work.
The government makes loans, grants tax relief, and does other things all the time to incentivize specific economic activities that it sees as a priority.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 11:00 AM   #417
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,194
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The government makes loans, grants tax relief, and does other things all the time to incentivize specific economic activities that it sees as a priority.
If it were just about what's best for the national economy, then forgiving these debts would be the perfectly obvious thing to do, because it would free people to participate in the economy in ways that they currently can't. Anybody arguing not to do it is arguing that there's some other cause that's worth deliberately sacrificing the economy for.
Delvo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 12:14 PM   #418
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,803
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You weren't priced out of education, though.
If you're arguing that the person couldn't really afford the education, and shouldn't have gotten the loan, it sounds like being "priced out" is what you advocate here.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 01:43 PM   #419
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
If you're arguing that the person couldn't really afford the education, and shouldn't have gotten the loan, it sounds like being "priced out" is what you advocate here.
SGM is being a bit vague about the details of their education-driven business plan, so I'm not sure that they're actually being priced out of education. As best I can tell, the degree in question is supposed to be profitable, and a career in a related field would make the education loan totally affordable, but for whatever reason SGM opted not to go that route after taking out a loan for that purpose.

If I opt not to make a profitable investment with borrowed money, I don't think it makes sense to say that my inability to repay the loan is because I was priced out of profitable investments.

If colleges are lying about the value of the degrees they confer, then we should probably stop student loans altogether. We should probably also investigate whether people in SGM's position have a good case to bring suit against their college for fraud, or if we as lenders should hold them accountable for not doing their due diligence before spending the money they borrowed from us.

I get that bad luck happens and sometimes it doesn't work out. I get that debt forgiveness is sometimes the right thing to do, in both financial and humanitarian terms. But if I loan money for a profitable purpose, and the borrower ends up not turning a profit, I'd like to at least find out WTF happened to the investment we understood when the loan was made.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 01:51 PM   #420
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,834
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I get that bad luck happens and sometimes it doesn't work out. I get that debt forgiveness is sometimes the right thing to do, in both financial and humanitarian terms. But if I loan money for a profitable purpose, and the borrower ends up not turning a profit, I'd like to at least find out WTF happened to the investment we understood when the loan was made.
Part of the nature of loaning money to people is that some will make poor choices. Student loans is one of the few areas that investors have completely insulated themselves from any risk, so they donít really need to know what happened or even try and understand what went wrong, since thereís no problem on their end.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 01:58 PM   #421
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
SGM is being a bit vague about the details of their education-driven business plan, so I'm not sure that they're actually being priced out of education. As best I can tell, the degree in question is supposed to be profitable, and a career in a related field would make the education loan totally affordable, but for whatever reason SGM opted not to go that route after taking out a loan for that purpose.

If I opt not to make a profitable investment with borrowed money, I don't think it makes sense to say that my inability to repay the loan is because I was priced out of profitable investments.

If colleges are lying about the value of the degrees they confer, then we should probably stop student loans altogether. We should probably also investigate whether people in SGM's position have a good case to bring suit against their college for fraud, or if we as lenders should hold them accountable for not doing their due diligence before spending the money they borrowed from us.

I get that bad luck happens and sometimes it doesn't work out. I get that debt forgiveness is sometimes the right thing to do, in both financial and humanitarian terms. But if I loan money for a profitable purpose, and the borrower ends up not turning a profit, I'd like to at least find out WTF happened to the investment we understood when the loan was made.
Looking at this from a bird's eye view, we have a pretty good idea why so many student borrowers can't pay back their loans. It's a combination of inflating tuition rates as government slash their funding, uncontrolled spending by these schools all competiting for top ranking (and for student loan dollars), a glut of students attending these institutions as other opportunities for gainful employment evaporate, and a general slipping of economic conditions punctuated by financial disasters such as those in 2008 or the current one in 2020.

The student loan situation is just one smaller piece of the larger phenomena of younger generations being generally worse off economically, in pretty much every measure, than the generations that preceded them.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th November 2020 at 02:01 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 01:59 PM   #422
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,791
Right now the total (Federally backed, I'm sure weird edge cases of other types of student loans exist but those are outside the scope of this discussion) of all student loans in the US is 1.6 trillion dollars.

Since the start of the Corona Virus the US Government has already spent 2.3 Trillion bailing out businesses.

So anyone and everyone who wants to have a big discussion about "moral responsibility" now but didn't then can flounce off at high speed in any convenient direction. I rather lost my patience with "I want to have a big moral debate when you get an arm cut off and need help that I didn't want to have when I stubbed my toe and got help" as a trolling tactic.

That being said I still stand behind my earlier point that giving this kind of mass debt forgiveness without really questioning hard whether or not we should be putting people into this kind of debt (and no "LOL just give them the money" isn't an answer) is not reasonable.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 30th November 2020 at 02:03 PM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 02:02 PM   #423
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,009
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Part of the nature of loaning money to people is that some will make poor choices. Student loans is one of the few areas that investors have completely insulated themselves from any risk, so they don’t really need to know what happened or even try and understand what went wrong, since there’s no problem on their end.
Don't be ridiculous, everyone knows that college students are pillars of fiscal responsibility whose lives are pretty much set and will never experience any significant changes.

Any injustice must therefore be due to the personal failings of individual students and not the industries which depend this assumption to perform as advertised.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 30th November 2020 at 02:05 PM.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 02:04 PM   #424
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

That being said I still stand behind my earlier point that giving this kind of mass debt forgiveness without really questioning hard whether or not we should be putting people into this kind of debt (and no "LOL just give them the money" isn't an answer) is not reasonable.
Agreed, but that's the political situation right now. At best the Biden administration is offering small sum, not even total relief. The idea that there would be serious restructuring of how colleges are funded is completely out of question for these people. Before you even factor in Republican ghouls stopping it, you have to concede that Biden and other conservative Democrats are idoelogically opposed to such measures. The current left boundary for this conversation limits us almost entirely to token gestures without meaningful reform.

There's really no reason for this thread remain wedded to political reality, because nothing substantial is on offer. My bet is that some pointless, means-tested nonsense that only helps a small minority of student borrowers is what is offered and this is further negotiated down to nothing, or totally stonewalled, by a Republican Senate. The situation will almost certainly continue unresolved as it is now.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th November 2020 at 02:08 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 03:29 PM   #425
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 13,728
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I'll try explaining one last time. Take the token gesture of needing to pull pins from a carpet or nails from some boards. Sure, you can run a magnet over the carpet for a long time or take a hammer to the nails to pull them out, but you've just bought yourself a MRI machine. You spent a LOT of money on it! Surely it can repay you a little by pulling the metal from the carpet and boards really quick, right? As long as it doesn't feel too full of itself.

It isn't about entitlement, or superiority, it's about using the tool for what it's good for. While you're sticking nails to the supermagnet, you're not taking scans of sick people. You also just might damage your shiny new MRI machine, and then what of all the money you spent on it? People already do service. Like my teacher classmate, service is best done along the lines of what the money went to pay for.
Serious question here, because I think the monkeys are busy talking past each other.

You took out loans and got a degree. Now that you have that degree, you have been unable to find a job in that field - correct?

Assuming that is correct, you are in a position where you have amassed a large amount of debt in good faith, but have found yourself in a position where repaying that debt is a significant burden to your well-being.

Now... if I understand the situation correctly... wouldn't it seem like a benefit to you if you could cancel some of that debt by spend one day a week doing some sort of public service (charity work, helping people do taxes, filing work at a municipal court, after-school support and tutoring in an underprivileged area, lugging around files for a public defender, be creative here)?

Given that you are unable to find lucrative work in your field in order to pay off your debt, wouldn't the exchange of service for debt cancellation be a reasonable alternative to simply being stuck in debt forever?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 03:31 PM   #426
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 13,728
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Why stuck with only proposals that inherently pretend that the work a graduate actually studied for doesn't count as work?
If I had got my degree in ancient greek philosophy... I'm not sure that holding out to find a job in that field with a load of debt hanging over my head is a hill I ought to be dying on.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 05:30 PM   #427
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,860
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Looking at this from a bird's eye view, we have a pretty good idea why so many student borrowers can't pay back their loans. It's a combination of inflating tuition rates as government slash their funding, uncontrolled spending by these schools all competiting for top ranking (and for student loan dollars), a glut of students attending these institutions as other opportunities for gainful employment evaporate, and a general slipping of economic conditions punctuated by financial disasters such as those in 2008 or the current one in 2020.

The student loan situation is just one smaller piece of the larger phenomena of younger generations being generally worse off economically, in pretty much every measure, than the generations that preceded them.
I think the weak link in the chain is between graduating with a degree and getting a decent job. It's not easy. And not getting a job at all, or getting a job that pays too little, makes everything worse for the borrower, the lender, and society as a whole. So I favor any solution that involves greater focus on helping the graduates secure decent jobs. It's certainly in the lenders' best interests. I think schools can and should do a lot more than just chucking (mostly young) people out into the world with a funny hat, a piece of paper, and nothing else. Can't colleges do some networking for their students? Make some partnerships with businesses, arrange starting positions, provide assistance for the next step?

I'm sure some schools do some of that. Mine certainly didn't.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 08:08 PM   #428
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,802
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the weak link in the chain is between graduating with a degree and getting a decent job. It's not easy. And not getting a job at all, or getting a job that pays too little, makes everything worse for the borrower, the lender, and society as a whole. So I favor any solution that involves greater focus on helping the graduates secure decent jobs. It's certainly in the lenders' best interests. I think schools can and should do a lot more than just chucking (mostly young) people out into the world with a funny hat, a piece of paper, and nothing else. Can't colleges do some networking for their students? Make some partnerships with businesses, arrange starting positions, provide assistance for the next step?

I'm sure some schools do some of that. Mine certainly didn't.

In technical fields, systems that encourage undergraduate research would help a lot.
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 08:20 PM   #429
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
 
Silly Green Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,188
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Serious question here, because I think the monkeys are busy talking past each other.

You took out loans and got a degree. Now that you have that degree, you have been unable to find a job in that field - correct?

Assuming that is correct, you are in a position where you have amassed a large amount of debt in good faith, but have found yourself in a position where repaying that debt is a significant burden to your well-being.

Now... if I understand the situation correctly... wouldn't it seem like a benefit to you if you could cancel some of that debt by spend one day a week doing some sort of public service (charity work, helping people do taxes, filing work at a municipal court, after-school support and tutoring in an underprivileged area, lugging around files for a public defender, be creative here)?

Given that you are unable to find lucrative work in your field in order to pay off your debt, wouldn't the exchange of service for debt cancellation be a reasonable alternative to simply being stuck in debt forever?
Perhaps, were that an option. However, anything other than absolute scut work sounds like-----a job. That if I'm doing for free, for some nebulous ticking down of a number in a cloud somewhere, someone else isn't going to get paid for. Either the 'service' is punitive, or it's eliminating jobs that would actually help someone by giving them experience in their field. It also means that those who are doing these jobs, stealing jobs from those who need them, will be excoriated for doing so. Really, 'service' is actually something that people are already doing, like my teaching classmate. It's an idea that's already in play and is being done better.
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype.
Silly Green Monkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 09:29 PM   #430
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,860
Originally Posted by Modified View Post
In technical fields, systems that encourage undergraduate research would help a lot.
I was thinking more of the non-technical fields. We have all these companies saying they want their jobs' candidates to have a degree! any degree!....well, let them prove it by hiring these degreed persons straight out of college. The colleges, if they have confidence in the value of these degrees, will surely find nothing to object to in arranging such a scheme. Let the schools guarantee the value of their degreed graduates by staking their academic reputuation on their immediate employability. In a transparent, easily-measurable metric that can be compared to other schools.

Unless both the employers and the schools want to admit they're lying about how great degrees are?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 11:33 PM   #431
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 750
I'm with tragicmonkey in that I really don't understand the pushback to his proposal. If it was voluntary, I KNOW it would be a popular program. 50k in debt? 500 hours of community service. For those that don't want to do so, let them wallow in debt. I can guarantee that would not be the case for the vast majority. And there is already a network to accomplish this. Do you really think this would be an added burden to have additional workers in this field to have supervised? When I was younger and had to do community service, being my charming self I let time pass until i found myself in court. Next bit a community service I had to literally pay out of pocket to go out with convicts from the local prison. And they were doing it just for the fresh air.

But sure, say making it compulsory is harmful. Let's make it voluntary and see how many sign up. I know I would. I know people that owed less to to courts that had to spend time in jail that would sacrifice hours towards community service vs that but weren't given the option. Let's start paying off their IOU's first since student loan recipients are obviously too proud. For a hypothetical, this seems eye opening to the backlash received and not really changing my mind at all.
rdwight is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2020, 11:40 PM   #432
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 750
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The question in my mind with cancelling student debt, or free college education of any sort, is how is it going to work fiscally? We simply cannot keep running the government by increasing debt forever. A point will be reached where the government will have to choose between default and hyperinflation (sort of a would you prefer to be hanged or beheaded type of decision). While Biden could maybe cancel student debt by executive order, he cannot raise taxes that way. Getting any kind of tax increase through a GOP controlled Senate will be just about impossible. That is going to place some limits on a whole lot of stuff that the progressive wing of the Democrats want to do. Even with a 50/50 Senate, Republicans will only need to turn one Democratic senator to win a vote.
Sorry for the delay of a response. To be fair, the proposals given do give an avenue to covering the cost. You can disagree with those tax proposals, but most do look to actually fund from revenue vs debt. If the ability to fund through taxation is struck down, and instead is funded through debt through the executive, that does seem like a combined fault. Ultimatums aren't good for policy, but policy wise I am not sure it is anything but a finger pointing contest if the ability to fund falls on one side while the other refuses to settle on the better choice.
rdwight is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 07:24 AM   #433
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,009
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I'm with tragicmonkey in that I really don't understand the pushback to his proposal.
Because it's punitive in motivation. TragicMonkey had the presence of mind not to explicitly describe it in those terms, but you've just gone and compared it favorably to Community Service sentences, which are literal punishments. You're saying "this is how much someone should be punished to be forgiven a debt."

Hey, how about in lieu of something done in lieu of jail, we just have jail? We'll build a special comfy jail just for people carrying large amounts of debt, which we'll call "student loan sanctuaries," and anyone who feels unable to pay their loans can just spend some time in a sanctuary. It's voluntary!

Or what about cutting off a finger, like the Yakuza demand for losing large amounts of money? How much is a pinkie worth? A million dollars? I'll bet I can find enough takers for that to satisfy your popularity criterion.

Obviously this is hyperbole, but whether it's community service or cutting off a finger, the motivation behind demanding that other people be punished to earn forgiveness is the same, and society's better off without it.


[ETA] I got curious about the typical conversion rate between dollars and hours of community service. In Florida you can "buy off" community service at $10 per hour. The other way, working instead of paying a fine, varies a bit but is below minimum wage.* Do you think as many people would be taking you up on your offer if $50k in debt would take between five and ten thousand hours to work off?

*[ETAA] Ooh, AND doing so typically requires defaulting on the fine, so you'd get to go through bankruptcy anyway just to be considered for the chance to work the loan off at below minimum wage! Or does that magic wand you're waving come with some ability to obviate the social and legal forces that have stapled on all this extra punishment in actual implementation?

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 1st December 2020 at 07:50 AM.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 08:00 AM   #434
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post

Given that you are unable to find lucrative work in your field in order to pay off your debt, wouldn't the exchange of service for debt cancellation be a reasonable alternative to simply being stuck in debt forever?
What you are talking about is indentured servitude. It used to be a real thing but was a disaster. It was second only to slavery in terms of the damage it did to personal freedom and was a massive failure economically.


Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You took out loans and got a degree. Now that you have that degree, you have been unable to find a job in that field - correct?

Assuming that is correct, you are in a position where you have amassed a large amount of debt in good faith, but have found yourself in a position where repaying that debt is a significant burden to your well-being.
If you had borrowed that money for a business, or a home, or a car, or a casino you could go to a bankruptcy court and have the debts dismissed in whole or in part. Most people in the US are not permitted to do this for student loans.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 08:11 AM   #435
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,860
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Because it's punitive in motivation. TragicMonkey had the presence of mind not to explicitly describe it in those terms,
Please stop calling me a liar. It's highly offensive. You are mistaken about my motivation. I have explained myself several times so far. I am very tired of being slandered in this way.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 08:27 AM   #436
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 17,268
How about this: for every month a degreed graduate works at least 30 hours a week in private employment at or near minimum wage, they're excused from their regular scheduled loan repayment for that month.

The employment can be verified from income tax records. The whole program could even be treated as a tax credit.

Minimum wage jobs are already the jobs that maximize service to society per dollar earned. No one pays minimum wage for work that doesn't need to be done at all. (Well, there might still be some traditional summer-job nepotism going on, but most nepotism nowadays pays far better than minimum wage.)

And should the graduate eventually break into the managerial or professional position their degree qualifies them for, they'll have some actual life experience at the bottom of the wage scale. Not just some BS volunteer fun-time or pretentious internship.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 08:30 AM   #437
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,194
Why stick with only proposals that inherently pretend that the work a graduate is already doing to survive if (s)he didn't get that "lucrative" degree-requiring job doesn't count as work?

(Including those who did get the job they were going for with the degree in the first place but found out it wasn't as "lucrative" as they'd been told it would be?)

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Because it's punitive in motivation. TragicMonkey had the presence of mind not to explicitly describe it in those terms, but...
And there's the real answer to my questions. The dishonesty is required in order to excuse the punishing. If you want to do X (in this case, making people's lives worse) but don't want to be seen as wanting to do X, some part of your argument somewhere needs to try to disguise X as not-X.

And like most punitive measures, it's designed to be worse for the poorest, the most in need of the kind of break it pretends to offer, because that's who's already the most likely to be working too much to be able to add more work to their schedules, and/or to lack the reliable transportation to get to yet another obligation in their schedules, et cetera.
Delvo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 08:39 AM   #438
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I'm with tragicmonkey in that I really don't understand the pushback to his proposal. If it was voluntary, I KNOW it would be a popular program. 50k in debt? 500 hours of community service. For those that don't want to do so, let them wallow in debt. I can guarantee that would not be the case for the vast majority. And there is already a network to accomplish this. Do you really think this would be an added burden to have additional workers in this field to have supervised? When I was younger and had to do community service, being my charming self I let time pass until i found myself in court. Next bit a community service I had to literally pay out of pocket to go out with convicts from the local prison. And they were doing it just for the fresh air.

But sure, say making it compulsory is harmful. Let's make it voluntary and see how many sign up. I know I would. I know people that owed less to to courts that had to spend time in jail that would sacrifice hours towards community service vs that but weren't given the option. Let's start paying off their IOU's first since student loan recipients are obviously too proud. For a hypothetical, this seems eye opening to the backlash received and not really changing my mind at all.
Sure, it would no doubt be popular.

I just don't think it would be useful in any way. It's not like these student borrowers are unemployed layabouts. Many are working in jobs that are related to their education, some are working jobs that have nothing to do with their degree. The reason they aren't current on their loans isn't because they're unemployed, it's that their income isn't adequate to repay.

There are plenty of people that are full time employed whose incomes result in IBR repayments that may not even exceed the accruing interest of the loans. Some on are track to repay their loans after decades, some on track to have the bulk of it forgiven once the IBR time period runs out after 25 years.

I don't see much benefit in taking people who are almost certainly working some job, which may have some tangential connection to their education and perhaps a glimmer of hope for a career track, and funneling them off to some make-work tedium that is almost certainly not going to lead to career advancement. Is it better for some part-time substitute teacher/barista to drop those jobs and go stamp license plates for loan repayment? Is it better for someone with a history degree to abandon a low-paying adjunct job to go pick up trash on the freeway?

Plenty of people would take this offer because the loan repayment would probably exceed the value of whatever paltry income they are receiving for a real job, but that's not evidence of this being a good way for the government to utilize labor.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 1st December 2020 at 08:43 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 08:50 AM   #439
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,009
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Please stop calling me a liar. It's highly offensive. You are mistaken about my motivation. I have explained myself several times so far. I am very tired of being slandered in this way.
You keep saying that, but then you talk yourself right back around to it. Ours just isn't a society where larger societal obligations can be handled as pleasantly as mowing your neighbor's lawn to pay him back for watching your cat. It would be a nicer place if it were, but we're not there yet nor will we be any time soon.

What you see as a polite request I see interpreted as mandatory punishment, and I think I can point to enough real-life situations to show that my view is more likely to be correct. And at least one other person agrees with your proposal on the basis of it being punitive just as community service sentences are used today.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2020, 09:01 AM   #440
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 14,303
Everything has downsides. I think one initiative, among others, might be government-sponsored internships in private enterprise lasting, say, anywhere from 6 months to 4 years. Under such a scheme, the contract is between the intern and the company at normal rates, and can lead to permanent employment. To qualify, students for their part must remain current on loan payments and have parents whose main income is earned, not unearned. Businesses, to be incentivized, are given zero interest loans, with semiannual principal up front, to cover salary expense, but not payroll taxes. To reduce fraud, employers do have real costs, only easily financed, and they can "place their bets" semiannually with full knowledge of how things are working out. Only 20% of a given companies workforce may comprise such workers. Anyone of any age and debt level may qualify, providing remaining monthly loan payments are greater than or equal to contract length. This ostensibly should have minimal net hit on Treasury. Might help as many as, I dunno, 20%-40% of students?

Aside: On the other hand, and unrelated to any specific debt or loan program...
and in the absence of a guaranteed basic income or large scale public works programs, there is something I quite simply would have loved to have had access to, and which may satisfy the moralizing Right and sticklers for all lunches being paid lunches, or close enough. I think it would be nice, either organized by an NGO, quasi or fully publicly funded, for there to be place where you can go and crush concrete with a sledge hammer, no questions asked, no ID, nada, for $20 an hour. Those unable to swing a hammer can pour new cement and rubble into molds and make new bricks for smashing. Those not wishing anonymity could choose to work in a publicly viewable booth and allow internet fans to tip. I can imagine some guys and gals making, well, *********. Maybe fans can buy the rubble, use it or donate it to construction sites as aggregate.

Say I'm homeless, not ******* hopeless, and don't want to ask for help, don't trust anyone, and just need a way to get started, not with a straight up handout, with no whining, weeping anybodies selling me faith or whatever. I just need some way to man up on my own, get a change of clothes, rent a pad, and look for work while not starving. Feed my littlest. You give me that solution, and I have no shame, do my thing, and move on. Bootstraps, no frills, no wagging fingers.

Sure, costs money. Multiplier effect alone should do wonders for payback, and the homeless have a clean way forward, no questions asked. That homeless Norwegian man who cared for his sick Spanish girlfriend and who used to teach the odd language class at one of our tables in the back of the bar might not have died so young, by golly. Stand up feller, one of the best. Got put down, hard. When some of your best are waste, something ain't working.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 1st December 2020 at 09:03 AM.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:15 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.