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#281 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
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The suggestion was made here that student loan forgiveness be conditioned on performing compulsory labor not of their choosing, such as picking up trash along the freeway.
There's no shortage of college graduates who are getting their hands dirty with low paying jobs, and everyone here knows it. They're just trying to elide that they really want to see the indebted wear a hair shirt in public and are hiding behind attacks of elitism. |
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#282 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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The only thing wrong here is you conflating "nice to have" with "need to have". If we need to have a skilled workforce, and we're spending money for that purpose, then we should make sure that purpose is being fulfilled. Not some other purpose that we don't actually need and didn't actually set out to spend money on.
So. What do we really need? An educated workforce? Or a skilled workforce? Are we spending money on what we really need? Are we getting what we're paying for?
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#283 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
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Accreditation is part of the equation, but shouldn't be the end of it.
I think these institutions receiving government money should not just be required to provide high quality education, but track data on whether or not their graduates are actually achieving any kind of meaningful career success. Continued eligibility for government funds could be conditioned on the college actually being a good investment, back by empirical data, for the students that go there and the government that pays for it. They need more skin in the game when it comes to whether or not their degrees are actually worth the money spent on them. |
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#284 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,862
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#285 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,349
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I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages so forgive me if I cover some things that have been already discussed.
I have mixed feelings about this. What about those who have already struggled through years....decades...of paying back their loans and finally finished? Isn't it rather unfair to them to now cancel the remaining loans of others? I have a niece who wanted to teach high school English. She chose to transfer to Stanford for her last two years. To get a secondary school teaching degree. She went into over $50K in student loan debt to do so. Why? Because she wanted a big name school degree. Did it get her a better job after graduation? No. She ended up teaching in an inner city school in St. Louis for 3 years in order for the government to forgive part of her student loans. She hated every single minute of it. When that was over she still owed most of her student loan and will be paying on it for years. She made a bad decision for a ridiculous reason and I don't see why the rest of her loan should be forgiven. Do I think there is room for some kind of student loan relief? Yes. Perhaps partial forgiveness, extenuating circumstances such as illness affecting earning capability, unexpected taking on familial custody of siblings, etc. But total, just wipe out all responsibility across the board? I'm not so sure. |
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#286 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,909
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If you look at the seventh post of the thread, there are some specifics of what is proposed. In short, loans like your niece's would not be forgiven. The current proposal mostly only covers federal loans from state universities. Loans for going to Stanford, a private Uni. would not be forgiven.
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#287 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,349
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#288 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,803
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I think I see where you're coming from, and yet there is a possible flip side--should something continue to be a struggle for people just because it's been a struggle in the past? As an analogy, if someone finally puts a disabled ramp in for some stairs, is it unfair to those who had to crawl to the top before?
That isn't a slam dunk--I don't think there's an obviously correct point of view to it. |
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#289 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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#290 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,349
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Some things can be fixed, some can't. Perhaps an equitable solution could be found for those who have repaid their loans like reimbursing a partial amount in the form of a tax credit spread out over a number of years depending on the amount of years of payback/size of the loan.
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#291 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
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#292 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 27,922
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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#293 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,862
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If they cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, how do colleges justify the prices they charge for them? Most industries are capable of rustling up metrics of some sort of another. "We definitely provide advantages, but they are impossible to quantify" sounds more like religion than business. Perhaps colleges should rebrand as temples, so they can just collect the money as tributes to the faith rather than in exchange for actual service.
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#294 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,349
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My sister and I were both very lucky as our parents paid for our college educations. But, then again, that was back in the day when a state uni full time student in CA cost about $200-300,IRC, per semester if you lived at home and commuted and went to a community college the first two years which we did. Very reasonable.
I was lucky enough to have that inheritance to be able to give my daughter the full uni experience, plus she had an academic scholarship which was $21K per semester for four years. A private uni education is ridiculously expensive. |
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#295 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 27,922
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I know it is. Just paying my in state public tuition was a struggle for me. Who am I kidding. Paying my rent while I was in college was a struggle. I was always working at least 30 hours a week and going to school at the same time.
Really was the hardest time of my life. |
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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#296 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,349
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#297 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,154
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Guess which colleges would do well under this kind of rubric? Yep, the Harvards and Yales and Browns. But is it because they give great education, or is it because they get the students who are going to succeed to begin with? And I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the schools that would do poorly by your measuring stick? The historically Black colleges and universities. And what's more, if you believe in systemic racism, you would predict this--black college graduates are less likely to get ahead than white college graduates because of racism, ergo, schools that have a lot of black students will tend to do poorly compared to schools that have a lot of white students.
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#298 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,791
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#299 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,862
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#300 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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Two of the premises I'm questioning:
Whether these loans are actually helping people in every case. Whether these loans are the best way to help people in every case. I also don't resent anyone getting help. I do kinda resent the government spending taxpayer dollars on stuff that isn't actually helping, or isn't the best way to help. I'd much rather this be a discussion about improving public policy, than a discussion about who's morally superior. |
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#301 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,791
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#302 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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Sure, but I understood you to be talking about the value of the degree - i.e., whether the student can get a good job with it, pay off their loans, retire comfortably, etc. If you want to measure the value of a school by its graduation rate, that makes sense to me. If you want to measure the value of a school by the career outcomes of its graduates, that doesn't.
(Too, graduation rate doesn't always tell the whole story. The Navy SEAL training program, BUDS, has a dropout rate of about 75%. But the government still considers it a good place to send money, and rightly so.) |
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#303 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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#304 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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#305 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,791
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#306 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,909
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And that holds true for some degree tracks at some Universities and Colleges.
Some colleges/Unis are not elite overall but have specific programs and degree tracks that are. Students in those tracks tend to have high dropout rates - but those who make it through are recognized for having the right degree from the right place for that field of study. The dropout rate can actually be part of the allure, as it signals difficulty. |
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#307 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,862
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Oh, that's easy: because the citizens demand it. Yes, it's a stupid wish, but the government genie has to obey even the stupid whims of the voting masters. Of course it does so in a way that just happens to cater to moneyed interests, but that's to be expected of both government and moneyed interests. It's a perfect triad of stupidity and greed in which one party needs to reassess what it actually needs, another needs to reassess how to actually meet those needs, and the third party needs to either tone down the rapacity or gtfo of that market.
But I'm a premature curmudgeon myself so nobody listens to me. |
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#308 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,791
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Colleges may offer what ever programs they wish within established legal and ethical norms.
We're talking about what overall society, acting through the government, has any duty or responsibility (or even the vaguer "Is this is a good idea") to pay for. Nobody is suggesting that courses in Underwater Mesopotamian Basket Weaving Studies be made illegal. Just as to whether or not we as an overall society should be funding them if the society isn't currently in the need of more people who can weave baskets underwater in the Mesopotamian style. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#309 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,862
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Ultimately it boils down to the ancient conundrum: how far do we let government act "for their own good" when people are being foolish? We agree it shouldn't stop people from taking courses in Underwater Mesopotamian Basket Weaving. But should it loan money for them to do so?
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#310 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,009
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Stop putting the blame for this on the students seeking an education, instead of the financial institutions preying on them. Just as broke students defaulting was a problem that needed a solution beyond the typical rules, so too does runaway cost inflation buoyed by debts that can't be wiped through bankruptcy.
The solution's simple: wipe existing debt, and going forward allow for bankruptcy to default on student loans after 10 years or another reasonable time limit. Maybe the kids should have known better than to let things get this out of control, but the banks definitely should have. If their parasitic asses fold, they fold. **** 'em. Let a more responsible company pick through their corpse. |
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#311 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 750
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#312 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 21,963
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Incapable, no. In a poor position to do so, yes. You list off all the other crap they are dealing with in that 12-18 month time-frame when they are making these decisions and yet you left out band practice, theater rehearsals, football two-a-days, travel for baseball games, studying for AP tests and navigating early sexual encounters while living with their parents.
So, this clearly focused teenager is making a life altering decision with the help of college admissions and financial aid professionals who have vast resources behind them to come up with misleading statistics that make their university sound like a great investment. My law school proudly displayed their graduates average salary without disclosing that 1) the data was collected from a voluntary survey that is not likely to include responses from people who are still struggling to find a job 18 months after graduation and 2) the data shows a heavily binomial distribution such that less than 20% of the respondents made anything close to that average, with a large cluster around the high starting salary of big firms and an even large cluster around the much lower salary I was giving up to go to law school. My undergrad program didn't produce any such data.
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I think expanding federal grants in a measured way to be available to more kids would not be a terrible idea, though. Sure, there is no predatory lending market pushing for this, but surely the large colleges and universities have some pull. To be clear, the bank did not insulate themselves, we gave them the insulation specifically so that they would make these loans. The consequences seemed obvious, not unexpected. As to the highlighted, of course the answer is no, the is the only way to answer a question with that word in it. We all have taken multiple choice tests. As to the underlined, but moral superiority is so gratifying while public policy is so cold and the benefits are so detached. Boys, get a room. I'm blushing over here. A prefer triad of stupidity. Well put. |
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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#313 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,791
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#314 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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#315 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,530
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#316 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,862
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As has been pointed out above, this isn't a morals question of who to blame. It's a policy question of how to fix a problem now, and how to reform things so the problem doesn't occur again. Deciding who is the "good" and who is the "bad" isn't really helpful if your goal is process improvement.
Of course if your goal is the weighing of sins and judging of characters, then proceed as you like. In that vein I blame everybody involved for the sin of greed: students for being greedy for degrees they expect to reap rich rewards with, politicians for being greedy for votes (and kickbacks) so they arrange bad programs, and the lenders for being greedy for profit so they loan to people they shouldn't for things they shouldn't. And thus I send everyone to hell, where they must fill out loan applications using a cheap pen and that ineffective yellow and pink paper that's supposed to copy through but never does entirely. |
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#317 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
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Damn me, I mistyped above.
I meant to say that it should matter whether people graduating with these degrees, even if the education was high quality, are actually able to land jobs that are relevant. If colleges are churning out 10x as many qualified workers in a niche field as there are job positions, clearly something is wrong and colleges are over admitting into these degree programs. That's part of why there's such a disconnect. The schools only care that they provide quality education. It doesn't really matter to them what market conditions are like for their graduates seeking a job. We are in a weird in-between spot where these schools have very little top-down management from the government writing the loans, but are also largely insulated from market forces that might exist in a laissez-faire free-for-all. The people charging money for education suffer no consequences from student loan defaults, highly regulated banks are still required to keep making these bad loans, and schools have no reason not to accept money and continue to offer degrees of dubious worth. |
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#318 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
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#319 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,862
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I would like, if it were possible, for student loans to involve some sort of job placement for after the education is completed (if done so successfully). That would offer a greater degree of security for both the student and the lender, as well as provide a more measurable outcome for the educational institution (rather than just flinging its fledgings out of the nest once they get the funny hat).
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#320 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,147
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In my experience coming through high school in the late 2000's, this mentality from those in guidance positions (teachers, admins, guidance counselors) was still quite dominant. Especially from those who were on the older side and came through college when this was still largely true. There were some murmurs of dissent from younger staff that saw that things had changed, but the prevalent attitude was that getting into college itself was the goal and everything after that would largely fall into place. I vividly recall doing these weird personality tests as a form of career and degree guidance that did not give any serious consideration to financial viability.
It seems to me that myth of "just get a degree" has largely been debunked in the following years as more and more new college grads struggled, especially in the post-2008 recession. I majored in a STEM career where even the drudgery work right out of school paid a livable wage. This is largely a matter of luck rather than any wisdom on my part. I naturally gravitated towards these subjects in school because I was better in these fields than others. Lucky for me I wasn't a history or literature nerd and instead liked science. |
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