Climate protestors threaten London mass transit disruption

Information Analyst · 17th April 2019, 12:50 AM

After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains.

Quote:

London Evening Standard: Extinction Rebellion activists set to cause Tube chaos for millions of commuters

Extinction Rebellion climate protesters have confirmed plans to cause Tube chaos for millions of commuters on the London Underground.

The Extinction Rebellion group, which has been blocking roads and bridges in the capital this week, confirmed it would “non-violently disrupt Tube services to highlight the emergency of ecological collapse” on Wednesday morning.

Transport for London warned bus users to expect disruption in central London during the morning rush.

It tweeted: "Central London / Extinction Rebellion - Bus routes which usually serve central London are, again, diverted / curtailed due to on-going protest which are blocking several roads."

In a statement the Extinction Rebellion said: "Participants will peacefully break the law in order to stop the Tube and then will wait to be arrested.

"We sincerely apologise to all those who may suffer as a consequence of this disruption. In any other circumstances we would never dream of disrupting the Tube but this is an emergency.

"We request that workers do not intervene in the protests to ensure that they go as smoothly and safely as possible for all involved."

Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors.

arthwollipot · 17th April 2019, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains.

Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors.

I also don't think this kind of protest helps their cause very much. People are more likely to hate them for it.

Sideroxylon · 17th April 2019, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains.

Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors.

Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though.

lionking · 17th April 2019, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains.

Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors.

Yes. A stupid protest.

autumn1971 · 17th April 2019, 05:42 AM

Gluing themselves to trains?

Run ‘em.

Information Analyst · 17th April 2019, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

Gluing themselves to trains?

Run ‘em.

A problem easily solved, given that some of the tunnels are a very tight fit.

As it is, it seems that the best they have come up with is a couple of protestors climbing on the roof of a Docklands Light Railway train at the elevated Canary Wharf station. Hope they brought warm clothing, as it's very windy there.

applecorped · 17th April 2019, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though.

The aim is off. Feet will be casualties.

Information Analyst · 17th April 2019, 01:50 PM

Just getting silly now...

BBC News: Extinction Rebellion London activists chained to Jeremy Corbyn's home

"Climate change activists glued themselves to a train and others chained themselves to Jeremy Corbyn's home in a third day of protests.

Extinction Rebellion protesters have been blocking traffic at Marble Arch, Waterloo Bridge, Parliament Square and Oxford Circus since Monday.

Earlier, three activists were glued to a Docklands Light Railway (DLR) train at Canary Wharf, causing minor delays.

Four people also glued themselves together at the Labour leader's home."

angrysoba · 17th April 2019, 02:39 PM

Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests.

dudalb · 17th April 2019, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I also don't think this kind of protest helps their cause very much. People are more likely to hate them for it.

Yeah.nothing makes a person want to listen to your point of view then causing him a lot of inconvience and problems. Great way to reach people.
One of the problems with the Left is they think it is eternally 1968, and the kind of tactics they used then will work now.

dudalb · 17th April 2019, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests.

I repeat it sort of an inability to move beyond the 1960's.

dudalb · 17th April 2019, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though.

Yeah, Pissing people off is a wonderful way to win them over to your side.
Sorry, but this whole excusing bad and stupid behavior because "it's trying to wake people up" is pretty silly.

theprestige · 17th April 2019, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests.

The goal is to disrupt people's lives so that they'll pay attention to your concerns. A lot of people use public transport in London, so disrupting that gets your concerns a lot of attention. This is not necessarily a bad or contradictory strategy, even if the goal is ultimately "more public transport".

I tend to question the value of the strategy of disrupting a lot of people so they pay attention to you, but historically that seems to be the go-to strategy for people looking for big changes, so I'm probably in the wrong on this.

angrysoba · 17th April 2019, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

The goal is to disrupt people's lives so that they'll pay attention to your concerns. A lot of people use public transport in London, so disrupting that gets your concerns a lot of attention. This is not necessarily a bad or contradictory strategy, even if the goal is ultimately "more public transport".

I tend to question the value of the strategy of disrupting a lot of people so they pay attention to you, but historically that seems to be the go-to strategy for people looking for big changes, so I'm probably in the wrong on this.

I get it, but if the response is, “Tube’s out; i’d better drive or take a taxi...we might need more roads...” then it is a backfiring strategy. Not to mention the fact it bolsters the view that climate protestors are an annoying bunch of moonbats.

It’s similar to those supermodel nude protests. “We’re gonna walk around naked until you stop buying fur!” Fur sales go through the roof!

Information Analyst · 18th April 2019, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests.

Especially given that a lot of those arrested are not even London residents....

Darat · 18th April 2019, 03:15 AM

I heard that the Met police stopped them disrupting the underground by switching off WiFi in the underground apparently preventing them organising themselves.

I have to say the cynic in me thought "No it meant they couldn't live broadcast,update their Instagram page or not know what their friends are thinking and doing for 5 minutes which meant they panicked. "

pharphis · 20th April 2019, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I heard that the Met police stopped them disrupting the underground by switching off WiFi in the underground apparently preventing them organising themselves.

I have to say the cynic in me thought "No it meant they couldn't live broadcast,update their Instagram page or not know what their friends are thinking and doing for 5 minutes which meant they panicked. "

also what else are you supposed to do while glued to something?

Eddie Dane · 24th April 2019, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Yeah, Pissing people off is a wonderful way to win them over to your side.
Sorry, but this whole excusing bad and stupid behavior because "it's trying to wake people up" is pretty silly.

They think our ecosystem is deteriorating fast and that desperate times call for desperate measures.

it won't work, of course. A couple of years of rising food prices will probably do the trick.

lomiller · 24th April 2019, 06:12 AM

Morons. Encouraging mass transit is one of the best things we can do to reduce CO2 emissions.

Information Analyst · 17th October 2019, 02:16 AM

BBC News: Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof

"Commuters have dragged climate change protesters from the roof of a London Underground train.

Extinction Rebellion activists climbed on top of trains at Stratford, Canning Town and Shadwell during Thursday's rush hour.

The Jubilee Line and Docklands Light Railway were earlier partially suspended. Minor delays are still reported on the lines.

Four protesters have been arrested, British Transport Police (BTP) said.

Extinction Rebellion said the disruption was "necessary to highlight the emergency".

One commuter shouted at protesters on the top of the Tube train: "I have to get to work too - I have to feed my kids." "

3point14 · 17th October 2019, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Morons. Encouraging mass transit is one of the best things we can do to reduce CO2 emissions.

Yes! This was my first thought!

uke2se · 17th October 2019, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

They think our ecosystem is deteriorating fast and that desperate times call for desperate measures.

it won't work, of course. A couple of years of rising food prices will probably do the trick.

Pretty much this, although I don't think rising food prices will do anything. I welcome the protests and disruptions. The situation is desperate, and public disorder is called for.

TragicMonkey · 17th October 2019, 03:59 AM

To those declaring that irritating people hurts a cause, what do you think of the effectiveness of these things:

A customer being rude and demanding?
Terrorism?
Warfare?

Unpleasant? Yes. Unwelcome? Yes. Inherently bad? Yes. Effective? Very frequently. The annoying customer usually gets what they want. The terrorists usually achieve the hostage exchange. The war results in regime change or territory shift. The reality is that unpleasant methods are sometimes, perhaps even often, more effective than nice ones. It may be wrong ethically to employ such methods but it isn't necessarily wrong strategically.

cullennz · 17th October 2019, 12:14 PM

Well that backfired for them.

Orphia Nay · 17th October 2019, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

To those declaring that irritating people hurts a cause, what do you think of the effectiveness of these things:

A customer being rude and demanding?
Terrorism?
Warfare?

Unpleasant? Yes. Unwelcome? Yes. Inherently bad? Yes. Effective? Very frequently. The annoying customer usually gets what they want. The terrorists usually achieve the hostage exchange. The war results in regime change or territory shift. The reality is that unpleasant methods are sometimes, perhaps even often, more effective than nice ones. It may be wrong ethically to employ such methods but it isn't necessarily wrong strategically.

That's exactly the point I opened this thread to make.

Thanks.

dudalb · 17th October 2019, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I also don't think this kind of protest helps their cause very much. People are more likely to hate them for it.

Yeah, making some poor guy just trying to get home from work hours late is not going make him or her look on your cause very kindly.

Orphia Nay · 17th October 2019, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Morons. Encouraging mass transit is one of the best things we can do to reduce CO2 emissions.

Extinction Rebellion are not in the streets to hinder public transport.

Comments like that make it easier for so many to compartmentalise the issue.

Framing it that way makes it convenient for people to sound superior to other people asking them to stop polluting.

cullennz · 17th October 2019, 03:55 PM

The funniest bit about the idiots is they are protesting an electric rail system.

applecorped · 17th October 2019, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though.

virtue signaling is the aim

Mumbles · 17th October 2019, 05:09 PM

I don't, generally, care much about people inconvenienced by protests. Accommodations should be made for emergencies, naturally, but having to wait around for a half hour, or to prepare for some disruption or other, is just part of city life as far as I care.

The main problem is that, by and large, there's often little in the way of an actual plan in place for these protests. There are no clear demands, no "and then we'll return to normal operations", just making noise. Compare this sort of thing to, say, the Montgomery bus boycott. "We demand desegregation, we're going to boycott you until do so, and once you do we'll go back to spending our money on your services." Protests like Ferguson, or the Selma March, were meant to show the world the viciousness of US racism, and the Standing Rock protestors were a direct strike on companies that consciously decided to pollute reservation resources to avoid inconveniencing white people.

What, exactly does disrupting public transit, or setting fire to Nike products, do for anyone? First, there's no order to it. Second, these guys only help to organize opposition. Third, most of them will end up using the services anyway without forcing any changes.

applecorped · 17th October 2019, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

I don't, generally, care much about people inconvenienced by protests.

And this is why it's failing

mgidm86 · 17th October 2019, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

To those declaring that irritating people hurts a cause, what do you think of the effectiveness of these things:

A customer being rude and demanding?
Terrorism?
Warfare?

Unpleasant? Yes. Unwelcome? Yes. Inherently bad? Yes. Effective? Very frequently. The annoying customer usually gets what they want. The terrorists usually achieve the hostage exchange. The war results in regime change or territory shift. The reality is that unpleasant methods are sometimes, perhaps even often, more effective than nice ones. It may be wrong ethically to employ such methods but it isn't necessarily wrong strategically.

The rude customer gains no sympathy from anyone. They get what they want, if they are not asked to leave, by force and threats. Who has this person won-over or convinced that their cause is right? The owner for granting their wish? Nope not even them.

I can say the same about terrorism and warfare too. You win over nobody, you convince nobody.

These three examples you mention do not compare to protesting for change.

Protesting for change requires convincing enough people to pressure the powers that be for that change. One group of protesters sitting on a train, or one customer who refuses to sit in the back of the bus will not make that change alone.

One person shooting up an abortion clinic will not help the anti-abortion cause.

It is wrong ethically and strategically.

TragicMonkey · 17th October 2019, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

The rude customer gains no sympathy from anyone. They get what they want, if they are not asked to leave, by force and threats. Who has this person won-over or convinced that their cause is right? The owner for granting their wish? Nope not even them.

They may not win people's love and approval, but they get what they want. In a perfect world they wouldn't, but ours is not a perfect world. And, surprisingly, not everybody prefers being liked over getting what they want!

Quote:

I can say the same about terrorism and warfare too. You win over nobody, you convince nobody.

I live in a country that exists because of a revolution. Did the loyalists love the revolutionaries? Of course not, they tried to kill them. Did the homeland admire the rebels? Of course not, it fought to stop them. And yet the rebels won, and I'm sitting in the nation they made all because they simply didn't care about convincing and winning over everybody.

Quote:

These three examples you mention do not compare to protesting for change.

Obviously I disagree.

Quote:

Protesting for change requires convincing enough people to pressure the powers that be for that change. One group of protesters sitting on a train, or one customer who refuses to sit in the back of the bus will not make that change alone.

Except for all the times it did work. Civil rights didn't happen because the minority managed to finally, finally appeal to the goodwill of the majority who then graciously granted them the favor of civil rights. It was a fight. (Which is actually still happening.)

Quote:

One person shooting up an abortion clinic will not help the anti-abortion cause.

It rather depends on what you consider helping that cause. If the goal was to scare people away from providing abortions then I'm afraid it actually has proven effective sometimes.

Quote:

It is wrong ethically and strategically.

Ethically wrong in some of the examples above, yes. Strategically, not wrong if the gains made outweigh the penalties incurred. Taking the Crimea didn't make Russia popular with the rest of the world, did it? Oh, what a terrible strategic blunder, people dislike them now! They just have to console themselves with what they did gain, which was: the Crimea. I'm sure Putin weeps at night over the mean things people say about him for achieving his goal and holding onto the prize.

Are you an American? Sometimes I think Americans fetishize the notion of being popular to the point they allow themselves to be blinded from what actually matters. A victory is when you get what you wanted, it doesn't require univeral approval and support and being liked.

Venom · 17th October 2019, 06:34 PM

Greta is behind this....

right?

Minoosh · 17th October 2019, 07:11 PM

I would imagine that tampering with rail cars could be treated as a serious crime.

Holding up traffic on central London surface streets, meh. I always wonder why people drive there to begin with.

Orphia Nay · 17th October 2019, 07:46 PM

A Google intern straight out of school in Mumbai now gets paid more than a Walmart employee in California.

Why shouldn't "privileged" countries like the UK protest the exploitation of workers and environment in the latest developing countries like Indonesia and Bangladesh?

These protests are having the desired effect in so many places and organisations.

Here we should be having a discussion of waste, and corporations and their pursuit of profits, and the mass delusion of overconsumption as I suspect most of you agree with.

I also suspect most of you don't want to travel on public transport, eat more plant-based meals, or dispose of your waste in separate places.

Change is hard. We all know how hard it is to change a person's mind.

Lots of us learned Geography from books that were old when our history teachers taught us.

It's no longer 2006 when many here were experts on debunking psychics, ghosts, UFOs, astrology, etc.

The forum was declining in participation in tandem with those topics declining in the public sphere.

It's hard to keep up with change. There's so much to learn about recycling, sustainable development, inequality, environment, poverty, agriculture, etc.

Those topics are what Extinction Rebellion is about.

If educated people here don't understand that, they're part of their own perceived problems with the world.

cullennz · 17th October 2019, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

A Google intern straight out of school in Mumbai now gets paid more than a Walmart employee in California.

Why shouldn't "privileged" countries like the UK protest the exploitation of workers and environment in the latest developing countries like Indonesia and Bangladesh?

These protests are having the desired effect in so many places and organisations.

Here we should be having a discussion of waste, and corporations and their pursuit of profits, and the mass delusion of overconsumption as I suspect most of you agree with.

I also suspect most of you don't want to travel on public transport, eat more plant-based meals, or dispose of your waste in separate places.

Change is hard. We all know how hard it is to change a person's mind.

Lots of us learned Geography from books that were old when our history teachers taught us.

It's no longer 2006 when many here were experts on debunking psychics, ghosts, UFOs, astrology, etc.

The forum was declining in participation in tandem with those topics declining in the public sphere.

It's hard to keep up with change. There's so much to learn about recycling, sustainable development, inequality, environment, poverty, agriculture, etc.

Those topics are what Extinction Rebellion is about.

If educated people here don't understand that, they're part of their own perceived problems with the world.

https://i.imgur.com/cNqN9AI.jpg

If your desired effect is pissing people off to the point of ignoring whatever point you are trying to make (which I thought was climate change) and just finding you idiots, congratulations.

And the trying to stop people using a non carbon emitting, electric, mass transport system was kind of the perfect icing on the stupid cake.

Hubert Cumberdale · 18th October 2019, 12:40 AM

As I said on a another forum, blockading public transport makes about as much sense as blockading cycle lanes, or the vegan isle in the local supermarket.

Those idiots disrupting the tube parading in front of an angry mob that they had created were very lucky they did not get seriously hurt.

TragicMonkey · 18th October 2019, 03:45 AM

"This was a very stupid thing to do for attention," declared people from all over the globe who heard about the thing.

cullennz · 18th October 2019, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

"This was a very stupid thing to do for attention," declared people from all over the globe who heard about the thing.

I got the message

XR what us to stop using electric transport

17th April 2019, 12:50 AM	#1
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	Climate protestors threaten London mass transit disruption After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains. Quote: London Evening Standard: Extinction Rebellion activists set to cause Tube chaos for millions of commuters Extinction Rebellion climate protesters have confirmed plans to cause Tube chaos for millions of commuters on the London Underground. The Extinction Rebellion group, which has been blocking roads and bridges in the capital this week, confirmed it would “non-violently disrupt Tube services to highlight the emergency of ecological collapse” on Wednesday morning. Transport for London warned bus users to expect disruption in central London during the morning rush. It tweeted: "Central London / Extinction Rebellion - Bus routes which usually serve central London are, again, diverted / curtailed due to on-going protest which are blocking several roads." In a statement the Extinction Rebellion said: "Participants will peacefully break the law in order to stop the Tube and then will wait to be arrested. "We sincerely apologise to all those who may suffer as a consequence of this disruption. In any other circumstances we would never dream of disrupting the Tube but this is an emergency. "We request that workers do not intervene in the protests to ensure that they go as smoothly and safely as possible for all involved." Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors.
	Last edited by Information Analyst; 17th April 2019 at 12:53 AM.

17th April 2019, 12:59 AM	#2
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 69,479	Originally Posted by Information Analyst After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains. Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors. I also don't think this kind of protest helps their cause very much. People are more likely to hate them for it.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

17th April 2019, 01:13 AM	#3
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,114	Originally Posted by Information Analyst After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains. Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors. Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though.
	Last edited by Sideroxylon; 17th April 2019 at 01:30 AM.

17th April 2019, 01:21 AM	#4
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,839	Originally Posted by Information Analyst After several days of blocking roads in central London, resulting in around 300 arrests, Extinction Rebellion are threating to disrupt the London Underground, including using the tactic of gluing themselves to Tube trains. Whatever one thinks about the protestors' declared aims, it seems that disrupting a mass transit system that actually reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road is dumb with a capital "D." I would also predict that after what appears to have been days of fairly violence-free protest, that will certainly change if they start screwing with the commutes of hundreds of thousands of people, and it won't be the police or Tube staff attacking protestors. Yes. A stupid protest.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th April 2019, 05:42 AM	#5
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,279	Gluing themselves to trains? Run ‘em.
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,279	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

17th April 2019, 05:49 AM	#6
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	Originally Posted by autumn1971 Gluing themselves to trains? Run ‘em. A problem easily solved, given that some of the tunnels are a very tight fit. As it is, it seems that the best they have come up with is a couple of protestors climbing on the roof of a Docklands Light Railway train at the elevated Canary Wharf station. Hope they brought warm clothing, as it's very windy there.

17th April 2019, 06:12 AM	#7
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though. The aim is off. Feet will be casualties.
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145

17th April 2019, 01:50 PM	#8
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	Just getting silly now... BBC News: Extinction Rebellion London activists chained to Jeremy Corbyn's home "Climate change activists glued themselves to a train and others chained themselves to Jeremy Corbyn's home in a third day of protests. Extinction Rebellion protesters have been blocking traffic at Marble Arch, Waterloo Bridge, Parliament Square and Oxford Circus since Monday. Earlier, three activists were glued to a Docklands Light Railway (DLR) train at Canary Wharf, causing minor delays. Four people also glued themselves together at the Labour leader's home."

17th April 2019, 02:39 PM	#9
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 28,898	Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

17th April 2019, 02:49 PM	#10
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,869	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I also don't think this kind of protest helps their cause very much. People are more likely to hate them for it. Yeah.nothing makes a person want to listen to your point of view then causing him a lot of inconvience and problems. Great way to reach people. One of the problems with the Left is they think it is eternally 1968, and the kind of tactics they used then will work now.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

17th April 2019, 02:53 PM	#11
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,869	Originally Posted by angrysoba Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests. I repeat it sort of an inability to move beyond the 1960's.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

17th April 2019, 02:55 PM	#12
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,869	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though. Yeah, Pissing people off is a wonderful way to win them over to your side. Sorry, but this whole excusing bad and stupid behavior because "it's trying to wake people up" is pretty silly.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

17th April 2019, 03:00 PM	#13
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,524	Originally Posted by angrysoba Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests. The goal is to disrupt people's lives so that they'll pay attention to your concerns. A lot of people use public transport in London, so disrupting that gets your concerns a lot of attention. This is not necessarily a bad or contradictory strategy, even if the goal is ultimately "more public transport". I tend to question the value of the strategy of disrupting a lot of people so they pay attention to you, but historically that seems to be the go-to strategy for people looking for big changes, so I'm probably in the wrong on this.

17th April 2019, 03:22 PM	#14
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 28,898	Originally Posted by theprestige The goal is to disrupt people's lives so that they'll pay attention to your concerns. A lot of people use public transport in London, so disrupting that gets your concerns a lot of attention. This is not necessarily a bad or contradictory strategy, even if the goal is ultimately "more public transport". I tend to question the value of the strategy of disrupting a lot of people so they pay attention to you, but historically that seems to be the go-to strategy for people looking for big changes, so I'm probably in the wrong on this. I get it, but if the response is, “Tube’s out; i’d better drive or take a taxi...we might need more roads...” then it is a backfiring strategy. Not to mention the fact it bolsters the view that climate protestors are an annoying bunch of moonbats. It’s similar to those supermodel nude protests. “We’re gonna walk around naked until you stop buying fur!” Fur sales go through the roof!
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

18th April 2019, 03:01 AM	#15
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	Originally Posted by angrysoba Huh? How have these people come up with the idea of disrupting public transport? Would they prefer that people not use the tube and drive instead? I wonder how some of them got to their protests. Especially given that a lot of those arrested are not even London residents....

18th April 2019, 03:15 AM	#16
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,016	I heard that the Met police stopped them disrupting the underground by switching off WiFi in the underground apparently preventing them organising themselves. I have to say the cynic in me thought "No it meant they couldn't live broadcast,update their Instagram page or not know what their friends are thinking and doing for 5 minutes which meant they panicked. "
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

20th April 2019, 08:26 AM	#17
pharphis Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 2,169	Originally Posted by Darat I heard that the Met police stopped them disrupting the underground by switching off WiFi in the underground apparently preventing them organising themselves. I have to say the cynic in me thought "No it meant they couldn't live broadcast,update their Instagram page or not know what their friends are thinking and doing for 5 minutes which meant they panicked. " also what else are you supposed to do while glued to something?
pharphis Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 2,169

24th April 2019, 05:58 AM	#18
Eddie Dane Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,681	Originally Posted by dudalb Yeah, Pissing people off is a wonderful way to win them over to your side. Sorry, but this whole excusing bad and stupid behavior because "it's trying to wake people up" is pretty silly. They think our ecosystem is deteriorating fast and that desperate times call for desperate measures. it won't work, of course. A couple of years of rising food prices will probably do the trick.
Eddie Dane Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,681	__________________ Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!

24th April 2019, 06:12 AM	#19
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,152	Morons. Encouraging mass transit is one of the best things we can do to reduce CO2 emissions.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

17th October 2019, 02:16 AM	#20
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	BBC News: Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof "Commuters have dragged climate change protesters from the roof of a London Underground train. Extinction Rebellion activists climbed on top of trains at Stratford, Canning Town and Shadwell during Thursday's rush hour. The Jubilee Line and Docklands Light Railway were earlier partially suspended. Minor delays are still reported on the lines. Four protesters have been arrested, British Transport Police (BTP) said. Extinction Rebellion said the disruption was "necessary to highlight the emergency". One commuter shouted at protesters on the top of the Tube train: "I have to get to work too - I have to feed my kids." "

17th October 2019, 02:17 AM	#21
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,373	Originally Posted by lomiller Morons. Encouraging mass transit is one of the best things we can do to reduce CO2 emissions. Yes! This was my first thought!
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,373	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

17th October 2019, 02:44 AM	#22
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,171	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane They think our ecosystem is deteriorating fast and that desperate times call for desperate measures. it won't work, of course. A couple of years of rising food prices will probably do the trick. Pretty much this, although I don't think rising food prices will do anything. I welcome the protests and disruptions. The situation is desperate, and public disorder is called for.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

17th October 2019, 03:59 AM	#23
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 58,843	To those declaring that irritating people hurts a cause, what do you think of the effectiveness of these things: A customer being rude and demanding? Terrorism? Warfare? Unpleasant? Yes. Unwelcome? Yes. Inherently bad? Yes. Effective? Very frequently. The annoying customer usually gets what they want. The terrorists usually achieve the hostage exchange. The war results in regime change or territory shift. The reality is that unpleasant methods are sometimes, perhaps even often, more effective than nice ones. It may be wrong ethically to employ such methods but it isn't necessarily wrong strategically.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

17th October 2019, 12:14 PM	#24
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,666	Well that backfired for them.
	__________________ "I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044

17th October 2019, 03:48 PM	#25
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 38,566	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey To those declaring that irritating people hurts a cause, what do you think of the effectiveness of these things: A customer being rude and demanding? Terrorism? Warfare? Unpleasant? Yes. Unwelcome? Yes. Inherently bad? Yes. Effective? Very frequently. The annoying customer usually gets what they want. The terrorists usually achieve the hostage exchange. The war results in regime change or territory shift. The reality is that unpleasant methods are sometimes, perhaps even often, more effective than nice ones. It may be wrong ethically to employ such methods but it isn't necessarily wrong strategically. That's exactly the point I opened this thread to make. Thanks.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

17th October 2019, 03:53 PM	#26
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,869	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I also don't think this kind of protest helps their cause very much. People are more likely to hate them for it. Yeah, making some poor guy just trying to get home from work hours late is not going make him or her look on your cause very kindly.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

17th October 2019, 03:55 PM	#28
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 19,666	The funniest bit about the idiots is they are protesting an electric rail system.
	__________________ "I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044

17th October 2019, 04:57 PM	#29
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Wont wake Gen X or Boomers from their slumber march to the end of their lifetimes. Its the aim though. virtue signaling is the aim
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145

17th October 2019, 05:09 PM	#30
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,275	I don't, generally, care much about people inconvenienced by protests. Accommodations should be made for emergencies, naturally, but having to wait around for a half hour, or to prepare for some disruption or other, is just part of city life as far as I care. The main problem is that, by and large, there's often little in the way of an actual plan in place for these protests. There are no clear demands, no "and then we'll return to normal operations", just making noise. Compare this sort of thing to, say, the Montgomery bus boycott. "We demand desegregation, we're going to boycott you until do so, and once you do we'll go back to spending our money on your services." Protests like Ferguson, or the Selma March, were meant to show the world the viciousness of US racism, and the Standing Rock protestors were a direct strike on companies that consciously decided to pollute reservation resources to avoid inconveniencing white people. What, exactly does disrupting public transit, or setting fire to Nike products, do for anyone? First, there's no order to it. Second, these guys only help to organize opposition. Third, most of them will end up using the services anyway without forcing any changes.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,275

17th October 2019, 05:12 PM	#31
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145	Originally Posted by Mumbles I don't, generally, care much about people inconvenienced by protests. And this is why it's failing
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145

17th October 2019, 05:42 PM	#32
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,976	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey To those declaring that irritating people hurts a cause, what do you think of the effectiveness of these things: A customer being rude and demanding? Terrorism? Warfare? Unpleasant? Yes. Unwelcome? Yes. Inherently bad? Yes. Effective? Very frequently. The annoying customer usually gets what they want. The terrorists usually achieve the hostage exchange. The war results in regime change or territory shift. The reality is that unpleasant methods are sometimes, perhaps even often, more effective than nice ones. It may be wrong ethically to employ such methods but it isn't necessarily wrong strategically. The rude customer gains no sympathy from anyone. They get what they want, if they are not asked to leave, by force and threats. Who has this person won-over or convinced that their cause is right? The owner for granting their wish? Nope not even them. I can say the same about terrorism and warfare too. You win over nobody, you convince nobody. These three examples you mention do not compare to protesting for change. Protesting for change requires convincing enough people to pressure the powers that be for that change. One group of protesters sitting on a train, or one customer who refuses to sit in the back of the bus will not make that change alone. One person shooting up an abortion clinic will not help the anti-abortion cause. It is wrong ethically and strategically.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,976	__________________ Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

17th October 2019, 06:09 PM	#33
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 58,843	Originally Posted by mgidm86 The rude customer gains no sympathy from anyone. They get what they want, if they are not asked to leave, by force and threats. Who has this person won-over or convinced that their cause is right? The owner for granting their wish? Nope not even them. They may not win people's love and approval, but they get what they want. In a perfect world they wouldn't, but ours is not a perfect world. And, surprisingly, not everybody prefers being liked over getting what they want! Quote: I can say the same about terrorism and warfare too. You win over nobody, you convince nobody. I live in a country that exists because of a revolution. Did the loyalists love the revolutionaries? Of course not, they tried to kill them. Did the homeland admire the rebels? Of course not, it fought to stop them. And yet the rebels won, and I'm sitting in the nation they made all because they simply didn't care about convincing and winning over everybody. Quote: These three examples you mention do not compare to protesting for change. Obviously I disagree. Quote: Protesting for change requires convincing enough people to pressure the powers that be for that change. One group of protesters sitting on a train, or one customer who refuses to sit in the back of the bus will not make that change alone. Except for all the times it did work. Civil rights didn't happen because the minority managed to finally, finally appeal to the goodwill of the majority who then graciously granted them the favor of civil rights. It was a fight. (Which is actually still happening.) Quote: One person shooting up an abortion clinic will not help the anti-abortion cause. It rather depends on what you consider helping that cause. If the goal was to scare people away from providing abortions then I'm afraid it actually has proven effective sometimes. Quote: It is wrong ethically and strategically. Ethically wrong in some of the examples above, yes. Strategically, not wrong if the gains made outweigh the penalties incurred. Taking the Crimea didn't make Russia popular with the rest of the world, did it? Oh, what a terrible strategic blunder, people dislike them now! They just have to console themselves with what they did gain, which was: the Crimea. I'm sure Putin weeps at night over the mean things people say about him for achieving his goal and holding onto the prize. Are you an American? Sometimes I think Americans fetishize the notion of being popular to the point they allow themselves to be blinded from what actually matters. A victory is when you get what you wanted, it doesn't require univeral approval and support and being liked.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

17th October 2019, 06:34 PM	#34
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,840	Greta is behind this.... right?

17th October 2019, 07:11 PM	#35
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,097	I would imagine that tampering with rail cars could be treated as a serious crime. Holding up traffic on central London surface streets, meh. I always wonder why people drive there to begin with.

17th October 2019, 07:46 PM	#36
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 38,566	A Google intern straight out of school in Mumbai now gets paid more than a Walmart employee in California. Why shouldn't "privileged" countries like the UK protest the exploitation of workers and environment in the latest developing countries like Indonesia and Bangladesh? These protests are having the desired effect in so many places and organisations. Here we should be having a discussion of waste, and corporations and their pursuit of profits, and the mass delusion of overconsumption as I suspect most of you agree with. I also suspect most of you don't want to travel on public transport, eat more plant-based meals, or dispose of your waste in separate places. Change is hard. We all know how hard it is to change a person's mind. Lots of us learned Geography from books that were old when our history teachers taught us. It's no longer 2006 when many here were experts on debunking psychics, ghosts, UFOs, astrology, etc. The forum was declining in participation in tandem with those topics declining in the public sphere. It's hard to keep up with change. There's so much to learn about recycling, sustainable development, inequality, environment, poverty, agriculture, etc. Those topics are what Extinction Rebellion is about. If educated people here don't understand that, they're part of their own perceived problems with the world.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift". Last edited by Orphia Nay; 17th October 2019 at 07:54 PM. Reason: pic