ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th April 2017, 10:56 AM   #3281
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Round round, right round...

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Torah is the basis of the faith, the teachings of Jesus is based on the Torah—so to bring a person to repentance, the ten commands are presented.

Life is very simple when it is viewed from the basic structure, all sin originates from lying, either to lie or believe a lie.

In the Torah there are different issues that are outlined to make life pleasant.
Mat_22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

So as Jesus explains the Torah is about loving ones neighbor, and the Torah explains how to go about that.

There are the dietary laws as well as laws pertaining to hygiene and the awareness of farming animals and buildings.

There are laws prohibiting certain practices. So, without the Torah we would not know what is sin.

So, the New Covenant is based on the Torah, as out of the 250 chapters, 200 have their origin in the Torah.

One law that embraces most laws is this---Lev_19:16 "'Do not go about spreading slander among your people. "'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am the LORD.

So, today there are laws for every walk of life, based on this one law. There are laws for everything pertaining to the safety of people. So, there are laws pertaining to health today—brush your teeth, wash your hands.

So, these laws are on a parallel to the Torah, although many of the laws that constitutions are based on are contrary to the Torah.

So, the Scriptures highlight where man has adhered to these laws and where man has violated these laws and the consequences. Israel has lost two Temples due to adultery.

So, teach children not to lie, this will ensure a good upbringing.But how will liars teach their children not to lie?
So what?

None of that is relevant, as we have MULTIPLE examples in your posts here of you disregarding what the Bible says.
  1. Do you now or have you ever withheld food, clothing, or sexual relations from your wife?
  2. Why is that question so terrifying that you refuse to answer it directly?
  3. Have you fathered or adopted any children? (If you refuse to answer this one on privacy grounds the site's rules require I respect that decision.)
  4. Have you ever made a human form for any purpose, decorative or otherwise?

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But it is not a catalog of your actions. When someone asked you whether you, Paul Bethke personally, have done a certain thing, the answer is not found in the Torah. Please answer the questions you were asked, not others that you wish had been asked instead.
It does make one wonder what he's hiding by refusing to answer such simple questions. I won't speculate on the forum of course.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 11:00 AM   #3282
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Wow. Unbelievable. Since your other posts show an extreme lack of knowledge, your statement above continues the pattern.

(Badassery trimmed for brevity)

And humble. Don't forget humble.
I remember reading his post and thinking, "I really hope Zivan weighs in on this."

I was not disappointed.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 11:22 AM   #3283
Zivan
Critical Thinker
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I remember reading his post and thinking, "I really hope Zivan weighs in on this."

I was not disappointed.
Thank you
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 12:00 PM   #3284
Steve
Master Poster
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,554
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
[i]geology > the science of the study of the earth as it relates to soils, rocks, and other such things.[/i]

I am sure that you meant something else, so please correct your posting when you can and that way I may be able to provide you with an intelligent response.
Maybe they are expecting a "Rock God" (Eric Clapton? )
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 12:03 PM   #3285
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Maybe they are expecting a "Rock God" (Eric Clapton? )


That's some hard-hitting commentary right there.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 12:12 PM   #3286
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Paul Bethke,

Please answer the question below:

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Bump for Bethke. Do you know any other person now alive on this planet whom you would consider a true Christian? Please answer simply with yes or no.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 01:43 PM   #3287
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 16,580
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
...

Neither have the samaritans. That xian story makes them cringe.

If you want to make a samaritan sick (I do not because I really like them) just mention the "good samaritan" story and watch the eye rolling begin......





...
Whenever I hear Christians talk about the "Good Samaritan" I think of this piece of genius from Mitchell and Webb:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs

Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

I have eaten breakfast and have not written an Epistle to any Church. - dejudge.
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 02:19 PM   #3288
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,711
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Whenever I hear Christians talk about the "Good Samaritan" I think of this piece of genius from Mitchell and Webb:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


That's brilliant !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 03:10 PM   #3289
Zivan
Critical Thinker
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Whenever I hear Christians talk about the "Good Samaritan" I think of this piece of genius from Mitchell and Webb:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
That is great, love it!
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 04:11 PM   #3290
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
That is great, love it!


It is hilarious and on point about how racist the original parable is.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 09:26 PM   #3291
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9,244
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You sound like a psychiatrist. One of many who join the profession trying to understand their own problems. Argument from authority - another atheist canard about religious people to try to show them as irrational, thereby elevating you to rational.

You are projecting your own emotions onto me. I am fairly free of fears, hatreds and prejudices.

I doubt I have expressed religious dogma. However I do support those who do, as trying to better themselves.
I'm a retired cop.

I have a long professional history of recognizing ******** when I see/hear/read it.

If someone I encounter tells me they want to feed the hungry, cloth the naked and house the homeless based on their religious faith and I know that they are doing so, that's fantastic. Unfortunately I have more encounters under my belt where somebody uses their self professed christian faith to run a game on me or someone else in my presence, or to rationalize why the California vehicle code or criminal code didn't apply to them, or to justify their belief that (fill in the blank) whoever wasn't going to heaven and that somehow those individuals should not be viewed as equals under the law.

I can count the folks I've encountered that express devotion to god as love for their fellow humans on the fingers of my hands with a couple leftover.

I've encountered far more that have some weird biological imperative to tell people - including perfect strangers - what kind of slow bake the big guy has in store for them downstairs when they kick off because their church has the wrong sign at the front door.

I've seen enough first hand of the WBC "god hates fags" protests as a member of the Patriot Guard Riders to know that the WBC "old time religion " isn't based on the new testament. There are plenty of people running around loose that imo read the OT and Revelations only.

All of the ridiculous old testament ******** has been endorsed by the most devout spokesperson (self-appointed) for the imaginary man in the sky in this thread, so you claiming that looking at the bible for what it is - racist, sexist and just about any ""ist" you can come up with short of "humanist" is a little disingenuous.

Let me put it this way.

When I was a kid, we were raised as catholic - G.I. in Sicilian history.

My father had no great love for, or obviously against, religion that he expressed when I was a kid.

Like a bunch of things parents don't tell kids till they believe the kid is ready, I never had a talk with my father about it until I was 13-14.

My old man was a cop and he had a couple of side businesses (indoor rifle range, gunsmith) and wasn't always around. At times in the house, it was my mom. me and my two younger sisters.

I had a job, as assigned by my father when he wasn't going to be home.

He explained my job to me using the story of Lot as a negative example. He explained to me that if the bible story was correct,Lot (I'll write it as the old man said it) A *********** coward, a *********** scumbag.

His view of somebody that would offer his daughters to escape consequences made him not something to emulate. He told me what, in his view, Lot could have done to be a righteous man. Something entirely different from the biblical lesson.

He expected me to be that righteous man if something came up while he was away, and he did not expect any angels to visit us anytime in the immediate future.

On a lighter note, There's another comment on the story of Lot that recently ended up in the T.V. series Hap and Leonard, from the books written by Joe Lansdale:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3729898/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt

The two protagonists, Hap Collins and Leonard Pine, are Texas work-a-day type guys that don't exactly fit in. Hap refused to submit to the draft, going to jail instead (Which Joe did in real life) Leonard did go to Vietnam, but being black and gay in Texas isn't the cake walk that somebody might imagine.

Both characters are extension of Joe Lansdale (gratuitous name-dropping - I know Joe a bit. Introduced by a mutual friend, I told him, hey, Andrew told me why you had to learn the martial arts, you could never remember where you left your gun. Joe looked at him and laughed and called him an ******* for telling his secrets)

In a recent episode a preacher took Leonard to task for Sodom and Gomorrah, and Leonard being gay. To my surprise, because it wasn't in the source material, Leonard went into a comedy version of what my father had told me way back when, but with an articulate turn of phrase This might not be verbatim, but I wish my old man was still around this would have cracked him up:

"Yeah, that Lot, man was he righteous, the crowd shows up, he tells his daughters, O.K. girls, shuck them panties and hit the porch."

Evidently, in some circles throwing girls to a crowd, slavery, rape, genocide and murder and all matter of things that when I hear about documented cases of make me want to get out my hanging rope are acceptable behaviors if they believe their imaginary friend endorsed it in their book of fairy tales.

In light of the facts, telling me that I'm projecting when your fellow traveler in this thread has rationalized these behaviors based on his interpretation of the gospels and has appointed himself spokesman for said imaginary friend and you yourself made a prediction that 2017 is the year that the big imaginary guy will start the countdown, I don't see much difference at all between religious whackjobs 1 & 2.

Before you write me off as somebody with a grudge that's blinded by my anger, there are a couple of catholic charities that I donate money to because they do a great job for the people they help. One is The Little Sisters of the Poor, their St. Anne's home

http://www.littlesistersofthepoorsanfrancisco.org/

Is great at taking care of folks that need it. If you go to the website .I know most of the Sisters in the pics.

The other catholic charity I support is the Salesian's Boy's and Girls club:

http://www.salesianclub.org/

They have great after-school and summer programs, and kids from every economic level are welcome it's not a org. that caters to rich families only.

I'm no hater of (any) religion that when practiced demonstrates the best in human behavior.

What I do hate about (any) religion is when the prejudiced ******** of the world cite the imaginary guy in the sky and their book of fairy tales as justification of their hate or criminal activities.
__________________
"On the issue of immigration, our policy should not be informed by our collective outrage about one man's conduct." - California Attorney General Kamala Harris.

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2017, 09:36 PM   #3292
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,711
Huge thumbs up.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 01:35 AM   #3293
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,404
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
There is a live broadcast of the Chief Justice of the South Africa and the Constitutional Court. At a conference of African Judiciary. He is urging all judges to fight corruption. That they should be prepared to die fighting corruption. (As some did in Ghana apparently.) That they must be free of corruption in order to fight the scourge.

He is opposing some very powerful and very corrupt politicians led by President Zuma.

Powerful speech. The nation's respect (and mine) for this man has grown by leaps and bounds because of his actions.

They are Christians who are unafraid. Last night I watched a part of Malcolm X. A religious and principled man from the parts I saw.

These are actions which many take as evidence of the power of faith in God.
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Malcolm X wasn't Christian.
But Jacob Zuma is:
Quote:
In a 2006 interview he stated that “I start from basic Christian principles. Christianity is part of what I am; in a way it was the foundation for all my political beliefs”
Source

Quite apart from this being quite staggeringly off-topic, and presumably also a dodge to avoid having to acknowledge the fact that your earlier points have been comprehensively demolished, is this example of massive corruption by a Christian supposed to bolster your claim that religion makes people more moral?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 02:57 AM   #3294
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Bump for Bethke. Do you know any other person now alive on this planet whom you would consider a true Christian? Please answer simply with yes or no.
Cannot give a simple answer.

First, what is a true Christian?

The term should be if a person has faith in Yeshua the Messiah.

The test that I apply is that of married and the eating of unclean food, combined these two considerations give a clear understanding.
It is the same principal applied with consideration of Gentile believers.

Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

To have faith in Jesus, means that one follows his teachings—many so-called Christians do not have faith, the simple observation is that they eat food that is labeled as unclean.
The marriage covenant must be considered.

In my sojourns, sadly I have not meet any who qualify. But given the opportunity, there are indications that many will repent and accept the faith as stipulated.

You SEE, marriage in its pure state is not taught, so people are ignorant, and this ignorance is destroying people’s lives, so when the Gospel is proclaimed in the END, there will be much weeping.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 04:48 AM   #3295
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Signs of the End Times - Part Two

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Cannot give a simple answer.

First, what is a true Christian?

The term should be if a person has faith in Yeshua the Messiah.

The test that I apply is that of married and the eating of unclean food, combined these two considerations give a clear understanding.
It is the same principal applied with consideration of Gentile believers.

Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

To have faith in Jesus, means that one follows his teachings—many so-called Christians do not have faith, the simple observation is that they eat food that is labeled as unclean.
The marriage covenant must be considered.

In my sojourns, sadly I have not meet any who qualify. But given the opportunity, there are indications that many will repent and accept the faith as stipulated.

You SEE, marriage in its pure state is not taught, so people are ignorant, and this ignorance is destroying people’s lives, so when the Gospel is proclaimed in the END, there will be much weeping.


Are you backing off your "keep kosher, follow the old laws" claim now that you're being asked specific questions about the laws you're not following?

By the way, you could have just said, "No, not as far as I know," instead of using a binary question as ANOTHER excuse for a Bible themed word salad.

How someone who clearly hasn't read much of the Bible manages to get so many Bible verses into his regurgitated word salad is perhaps the greatest unsolved mystery about you Paul Bethke.

Last edited by halleyscomet; 27th April 2017 at 05:01 AM.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 05:31 AM   #3296
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Are you backing off your "keep kosher, follow the old laws" claim now that you're being asked specific questions about the laws you're not following?

By the way, you could have just said, "No, not as far as I know," instead of using a binary question as ANOTHER excuse for a Bible themed word salad.

How someone who clearly hasn't read much of the Bible manages to get so many Bible verses into his regurgitated word salad is perhaps the greatest unsolved mystery about you Paul Bethke.
You SEE Comet, it is the Scriptures that give us understanding, not human reasoning.

Every law that is promulgated has a distinct function, that is to inform humanity how to live in order to please the Creator, nothing to do with salad.
1Thess_4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

So, in your limited understanding, you try to be clever, but only show your ignorance of the Scriptures.

So the Torah is the means to instruct people how to live, some laws have application to some people and some laws do not have application to all people.

But sanctified marriage and the eating of unclean food have application to all people.

So as is proclaimed---Act_14:16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way.
Act_17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

So, the world is in the BUT NOW era, so the Gospel is to inform the world what people must repent of.

So you should know what you must repent of in order to please the Creator—in many instances the choices people have made will be the cause of them not being able to repent.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 05:47 AM   #3297
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You SEE Comet, it is the Scriptures that give us understanding, not human reasoning.



Every law that is promulgated has a distinct function, that is to inform humanity how to live in order to please the Creator, nothing to do with salad.

1Thess_4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.



So, in your limited understanding, you try to be clever, but only show your ignorance of the Scriptures.



So the Torah is the means to instruct people how to live, some laws have application to some people and some laws do not have application to all people.



But sanctified marriage and the eating of unclean food have application to all people.



So as is proclaimed---Act_14:16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way.

Act_17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.



So, the world is in the BUT NOW era, so the Gospel is to inform the world what people must repent of.



So you should know what you must repent of in order to please the Creator—in many instances the choices people have made will be the cause of them not being able to repent.


Ahh, I see you've taken my post as another "excuse" for an unrelated, vomited word salad, "sermon."

Your posts are far more interesting when they're actually related to the comment to which you are replying. I know you CAN reply to posts because I've seen you do it. You should do it more often. People actually READ what you write if you're responding, as opposed to skimming another of your partially digested word salads to see if there's a response floating in the bile.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 06:03 AM   #3298
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,711
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You SEE Comet, it is the Scriptures that give us understanding, not human reasoning.
Reasoning allows us to understand the Scriptures, to recognize the ambiguities and contradictions and to determine what the intention of the author is. Without reason Scripture is meaningless.

Quote:
Every law that is promulgated has a distinct function, that is to inform humanity how to live in order to please the Creator, nothing to do with salad.
1Thess_4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.
So why don't you follow the law?

You've made it clear you pick and choose which of the laws you follow - you ignore the clothing laws, the requirement for circumcision, the mandatory feasts, the sacrifices, etc. Sure you come up with excuses (there's no temple, etc.), but that's no different then any other criminal.

Quote:
So, in your limited understanding, you try to be clever, but only show your ignorance of the Scriptures.
You, who change the definition of words to suit your personal prejudices, who cannot read the original languages, who version shops for translations cannot claim greater understanding.

Quote:
So the Torah is the means to instruct people how to live, some laws have application to some people and some laws do not have application to all people.

But sanctified marriage and the eating of unclean food have application to all people.
You have admitted that you ignore many of the ones that DO apply to all (circumcision, clothing laws, grooming). Your god will be quite upset with you.

Quote:
So you should know what you must repent of in order to please the Creator—in many instances the choices people have made will be the cause of them not being able to repent.
You've made the choice to only keep the laws you want to keep. Enjoy your isolation from Yahweh the Bloody.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 06:19 AM   #3299
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,711
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Cannot give a simple answer.

First, what is a true Christian?

The term should be if a person has faith in Yeshua the Messiah.

The test that I apply is that of married and the eating of unclean food, combined these two considerations give a clear understanding.
It is the same principal applied with consideration of Gentile believers.

Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Given that Jesus very clearly stated that he is not going to change the laws (Matt 5:17-18), Paul's decision to change the Law with respect to Gentile conversion is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus. You, like your namesake, are picking and choosing what you want to do - ignoring the laws you find to be inconvenient to you.

Quote:
To have faith in Jesus, means that one follows his teachings—many so-called Christians do not have faith, the simple observation is that they eat food that is labeled as unclean.
The marriage covenant must be considered.
If we consider Paul's statement above - if the requirement is simply to abstain from food polluted by idols then my bacon double cheeseburger with the side of popcorn shrimp is fine, as there are no idols to any deity in any of the fast food restaurants I've ever eaten in. I will freely admit that a couple of the Indian restaurants around here have statues of Ganeesh, and a few Chinese restaurants have Buddhas, but any deity that requires me to forgo Vindaloo or Dim Sum is far too cruel to follow.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 06:31 AM   #3300
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,708
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Cannot give a simple answer.
Yes, you can.

Quote:
In my sojourns, sadly I have not meet any who qualify.
Let me cut through your obfuscations and clarify. Are you claiming to be the only person you know who is, in your mind, a true Christian?

Again, a yes or no answer is all I need. No irrelevant pontifications or scripture dumps.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 06:35 AM   #3301
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,341
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Cannot give a simple answer.

<snip>
Pablo, had you read the question at all, you would know that it is, in fact, simple: Do you, Pablo, know anyone you consider to be a "true christian"?

Yes or no question, hold the scripturedump.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 06:39 AM   #3302
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,708
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You SEE Comet, it is the Scriptures that give us understanding, not human reasoning.
Nonsense. In addition to requiring reasoning to understand the scriptures, which has already been discussed, authors such as Paul explicitly invoke pre-existing modes of reasoning -- syllogisms, if you will -- to express his point. This so-called "human" reasoning existed before the Bible and continues to exist separately from it. Denying its existence and usefulness does not help your case. It only makes you seem afraid of people who are smarter than you.

Quote:
So, in your limited understanding, you try to be clever, but only show your ignorance of the Scriptures.
No, your critics are not ignorant.

Quote:
So the Torah is the means to instruct people how to live, some laws have application to some people and some laws do not have application to all people.
And your attempt to determine which apply to you and which don't is exactly that reasoning you were so adamantly against. It's not a very strong argument that starts about by undermining its own premise.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 06:40 AM   #3303
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Pablo, had you read the question at all, you would know that it is, in fact, simple: Do you, Pablo, know anyone you consider to be a "true christian"?

Yes or no question, hold the scripturedump.
He certainly did engage in a lot of prevaricating obfuscation to circumlocute giving an incomplex elucidation.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 07:10 AM   #3304
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 10,774
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Cannot give a simple answer.

First, what is a true Christian?

The term should be if a person has faith in Yeshua the Messiah.

The test that I apply is that of married and the eating of unclean food, combined these two considerations give a clear understanding.
It is the same principal applied with consideration of Gentile believers.

Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

To have faith in Jesus, means that one follows his teachings—many so-called Christians do not have faith, the simple observation is that they eat food that is labeled as unclean.
The marriage covenant must be considered.

In my sojourns, sadly I have not meet any who qualify. But given the opportunity, there are indications that many will repent and accept the faith as stipulated.

You SEE, marriage in its pure state is not taught, so people are ignorant, and this ignorance is destroying people’s lives, so when the Gospel is proclaimed in the END, there will be much weeping.
OK then.

I guess that since your god is far too stupid, far too lazy, and for to incompetent to actually help the people that your god created, therefore your god will kill the people he created.

Your god is nothing but an over-powered horrible piece of crap god!
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 08:12 AM   #3305
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,341
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
He certainly did engage in a lot of prevaricating obfuscation to circumlocute giving an incomplex elucidation.
Word to yo' mama.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 08:13 AM   #3306
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Word to yo' mama.
The ladies have always told me I was a cunning linguist.

My mother just complains that she's tired of me proving her wrong about "Bible stuff." That's what happens when a person who gets all their Bible learning from Pat Robertson has their son read the bible cover to cover.

Last edited by halleyscomet; 27th April 2017 at 08:14 AM.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2017, 08:15 AM   #3307
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,341
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
The ladies have always told me I was a cunning linguist.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th April 2017, 04:44 AM   #3308
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,874
x
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Nonsense. In addition to requiring reasoning to understand the scriptures, which has already been discussed, authors such as Paul explicitly invoke pre-existing modes of reasoning -- syllogisms, if you will -- to express his point. This so-called "human" reasoning existed before the Bible and continues to exist separately from it. Denying its existence and usefulness does not help your case. It only makes you seem afraid of people who are smarter than you.
You are always so very wrong when you try to analyse me—I learn from people as you do, you were not born with knowledge, you had to learn, even what you learned is not true, you still had to learn.

Human reasoning devoid of morality is of no value.
So essentially there is only one thing that matters and that is truth.

Quote:
No, your critics are not ignorant.
Yes they are ignorant in that they cannot understand prophecy, without that ability they make statements that are void of understanding.

Even I learn from people on the Forum, I have gained a degree of wisdom of how to deal with ignorant people.

You SEE the many years that I have posted here has resulted in me examining my conclusions, and am happy to say that I more convinced than ever that my conclusions are in line with the Scriptures.

Quote:
And your attempt to determine which apply to you and which don't is exactly that reasoning you were so adamantly against. It's not a very strong argument that starts about by undermining its own premise.
As I have said the Torah was first given to the Hebrews who came out of Egypt, and subsequently was the means to separate the Hebrews from the customs of the people whose land they invaded.

The laws were purposed for the nation of Israel, in Israel—but when the Gentiles were accepted into the faith, there were many laws that were put aside, those mainly being the Temple and animal sacrifices.

So when we scrutinize the 613 commands, it is obvious which can be applied and those who have been replace. What has been replaced still forms the acceptance of the motive of the Creator.

But essentially the Ten Commands are the basis of faith.
So the ignorance of my personal critics fail to understand the simplicity of selection.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.

Last edited by Paul Bethke; 28th April 2017 at 04:47 AM.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th April 2017, 04:50 AM   #3309
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
x

You are always so very wrong when you try to analyse me—I learn from people as you do, you were not born with knowledge, you had to learn, even what you learned is not true, you still had to learn.

Human reasoning devoid of morality is of no value.
So essentially there is only one thing that matters and that is truth.



Yes they are ignorant in that they cannot understand prophecy, without that ability they make statements that are void of understanding.

Even I learn from people on the Forum, I have gained a degree of wisdom of how to deal with ignorant people.

You SEE the many years that I have posted here has resulted in me examining my conclusions, and am happy to say that I more convinced than ever that my conclusions are in line with the Scriptures.



As I have said the Torah was first given to the Hebrews who came out of Egypt, and subsequently was the means to separate the Hebrews from the customs of the people whose land they invaded.

The laws were purposed for the nation of Israel, in Israel—but when the Gentiles were accepted into the faith, there were many laws that were put aside, those mainly being the Temple and animal sacrifices.

So when we scrutinize the 613 commands, it is obvious which can be applied and those who have been replace. What has been replaced still forms the acceptance of the motive of the Creator.

But essentially the Ten Commands are the basis of faith.
So the ignorance of my personal critics fail to understand the simplicity of selection.


If the 613 Mitzvot are so easy to assess, why do you refuse to do so?

Make up your mind. You've called it futile, you've claimed there's no purpose to it and now you're saying it's easy. If it's so easy why can't you so much as tell us if you deny your wife food, clothing and sex?
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th April 2017, 05:19 AM   #3310
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,711
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
x

You are always so very wrong when you try to analyse me—I learn from people as you do, you were not born with knowledge, you had to learn, even what you learned is not true, you still had to learn.

Human reasoning devoid of morality is of no value.
So essentially there is only one thing that matters and that is truth.
So why do you lie then? You lie when you redefine words to suit your personal needs. You lie when you say that you follow the Law, and then claim that parts of it don't apply to you. And you lie when you say that you learn from other people.

You don't demonstrate learning from other people as you never alter your style of argument, your deny facts when they don't correspond with your prejudices and insult everyone who do not agree with you completely(which is everyone in this thread, and its predecessor).

Quote:
Yes they are ignorant in that they cannot understand prophecy, without that ability they make statements that are void of understanding.
Prophecies are predictions of future events. The ones you have made (World Cup grass, blindings) have failed. You obviously don't understand it either.

Quote:
Even I learn from people on the Forum, I have gained a degree of wisdom of how to deal with ignorant people.
Insults are wisdom? That's not wisdom, that's petty and childlike.

If someone is ignorant, you are supposed to educate them. People are not open to education if the "teacher" starts off with insulting people for not immediately understanding the matter in the same way the "teacher" does, never answering direct questions, never providing a reason for accepting the "teacher's" position beyond "I'm right, you're not."

Quote:
You SEE the many years that I have posted here has resulted in me examining my conclusions, and am happy to say that I more convinced than ever that my conclusions are in line with the Scriptures.
I believe most people here would say that your conclusions continue to be in line with your interpretations of the Scriptures, that you are unwilling to examine your faith preferring instead to quote mine Scripture for nuggets that support your prejudices, and that you will not change.

Quote:
As I have said the Torah was first given to the Hebrews who came out of Egypt, and subsequently was the means to separate the Hebrews from the customs of the people whose land they invaded.
Archeology and history have very clearly established that the Exodus and the Conquest of Canaan did not happen. Biblical study reveals that the Pentateuch wasn't written until at least 500 years AFTER the events it pretends to chronicle.

We can agree that it was the means to separate the Hebrews from other nations - in the same way that all nations engage in creating a national mythology - the stubborn resistance of the Boers to outsiders, the politeness and peaceableness of Canadians, the quiet stoicism of the British in the face of adversity, etc.

Quote:
The laws were purposed for the nation of Israel, in Israel—but when the Gentiles were accepted into the faith, there were many laws that were put aside, those mainly being the Temple and animal sacrifices.
Contrary to the direction of Jesus.

Quote:
So when we scrutinize the 613 commands, it is obvious which can be applied and those who have been replace. What has been replaced still forms the acceptance of the motive of the Creator.
Jesus explicitly stated that he did not come to change the Law. It follows quite logically then that Paul's decision to set aside portions of the Law for the pragmatic reason of accepting Gentile converts is contrary to the will of Jesus and therefore Yahweh. If you accept that the Law is Yahweh's will made evident for the direction of his people, then ANY alteration of the Law must be seen as contrary to His will and His plan.

Quote:
But essentially the Ten Commands are the basis of faith.
So the ignorance of my personal critics fail to understand the simplicity of selection.
You've stopped boiling a kid in it's mother's milk then?

As has been pointed out to you, what you are referring to is not the only set of "10 Commandments" found in the Bible.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th April 2017, 07:01 AM   #3311
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,708
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are always so very wrong when you try to analyse me—
No I'm not. Gaslighting doesn't work here, Bethke.

Quote:
I learn from people as you do, you were not born with knowledge, you had to learn, even what you learned is not true, you still had to learn.
No, you haven't learned; that's the problem. You specifically denigrate secular knowledge, and you undeservedly claimed to be infallible. You acknowledge there are people who have learned more than you, but you simply find ways in your mind of making that seem unimportant.

Quote:
Human reasoning devoid of morality is of no value.
Who said human reason is devoid of morality? And on the other hand, ethics and logic are related but separate subjects. Both guide human behavior in the normal person. However, your guidance is bereft of logic. And I daresay it's bereft of what the rest of us would call morality: yours is simply a set of preconceived prejudices you believe are justified by your personal interpretation of religion.

Quote:
So essentially there is only one thing that matters and that is truth.
I agree. Unfortunately you do not search for truth. You search for a post justification of things you already believe, many of which are objectively distasteful such as racism. You idolatrously elevate the Bible to the status of some magic oracle and cannot look at it as it was written and passed down. You are not searching for truth. You are searching for personal validation.

Human reason is exactly a tool for determining truth regardless of what emotion or desire might suggest. Your "morality" tells you that people with black skin are beneath you. Logic tells us that's hogwash. Which is the more moral approach?

Quote:
Yes they are ignorant in that they cannot understand prophecy, without that ability they make statements that are void of understanding.
No. You just fling the word "prophecy" around as if it's some magical body of knowledge that only you can possibly know about. As I said, you invent in your mind new ways to be right just so you can claim to be the only one who is right.

Quote:
Even I learn from people on the Forum, I have gained a degree of wisdom of how to deal with ignorant people.
You haven't met any ignorant people here. You have met plenty of people whom you desperately label ignorant, but you can't actually show that they are. They constantly correct your broken understanding of scripture and history, and you call them names in return. You are neither learning nor coping. You're lashing out and getting reprimanded for it.

Quote:
You SEE the many years that I have posted here has resulted in me examining my conclusions, and am happy to say that I more convinced than ever that my conclusions are in line with the Scriptures.
Then you haven't been paying attention to the discussion.

Quote:
As I have said...
You didn't address my point. As usual you went off on some irrelevant sermon. The point was that your argument began by undermining its premise. Please fix that.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th April 2017, 08:01 AM   #3312
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,708
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes, you can.



Let me cut through your obfuscations and clarify. Are you claiming to be the only person you know who is, in your mind, a true Christian?

Again, a yes or no answer is all I need. No irrelevant pontifications or scripture dumps.
Bethke, you didn't address this. I'm asking for a simple answer to my question highlighted above.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th April 2017, 10:45 PM   #3313
PartSkeptic
Graduate Poster
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1,765
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
But Jacob Zuma is:


Source

Quite apart from this being quite staggeringly off-topic, and presumably also a dodge to avoid having to acknowledge the fact that your earlier points have been comprehensively demolished, is this example of massive corruption by a Christian supposed to bolster your claim that religion makes people more moral?

I answered the questions being asked about "true Christians". One still being asked.

And you give the most profound example of a "fake" Christian. An evil demon-possessed politician who uses the cloak of Christianity to fool people. Zuma (and in your staggering bad reference - Mugabe).

People should be judged by their actions - not by their lies. Your judgment is very questionable if you think Zuma is Christian in the slightest.

(BTW - No time to check all the responses since I last posted. Just a quick read and reply.)
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:20 PM   #3314
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,711
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I answered the questions being asked about "true Christians". One still being asked.



And you give the most profound example of a "fake" Christian. An evil demon-possessed politician who uses the cloak of Christianity to fool people. Zuma (and in your staggering bad reference - Mugabe).



People should be judged by their actions - not by their lies. Your judgment is very questionable if you think Zuma is Christian in the slightest.



(BTW - No time to check all the responses since I last posted. Just a quick read and reply.)


Then the question remains - who are these alleged "True Christians?"
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:29 PM   #3315
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Then the question remains - who are these alleged "True Christians?"

Fred Rogers.

You can apply whatever ideological purity tests you want, but any deity that wouldn't consider Fred Rogers one of the holy elect, if said deity even HAS such a category, is not worthy of consideration.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:09 PM   #3316
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,341
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Fred Rogers.

You can apply whatever ideological purity tests you want, but any deity that wouldn't consider Fred Rogers one of the holy elect, if said deity even HAS such a category, is not worthy of consideration.
QFFT
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:31 PM   #3317
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,711
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Fred Rogers.

You can apply whatever ideological purity tests you want, but any deity that wouldn't consider Fred Rogers one of the holy elect, if said deity even HAS such a category, is not worthy of consideration.


Agreed
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:55 AM   #3318
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,404
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I answered the questions being asked about "true Christians". One still being asked.

And you give the most profound example of a "fake" Christian. An evil demon-possessed politician who uses the cloak of Christianity to fool people.
I would love to see your evidence that Jacob Zuma is possessed by demons.

Also, are these simulated demons or real ones?

As others have asked: how can you tell the difference between real and fake Christians? Moreover, why does the Christian god allow this to happen? If we can only be saved through Jesus, it seems a little unfair to let his message be corrupted and discredited by demons posing as true believers. Can't be good for business.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Zuma (and in your staggering bad reference - Mugabe).
The reference quotes Zuma to back up every point that is made. Is there a part of this you think is bad, and, if so, what?
Oh, and if you're going to use me as a lexical resource, at least learn to do it properly. The word you want is "staggeringly", not "staggering".


Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
People should be judged by their actions - not by their lies. Your judgment is very questionable if you think Zuma is Christian in the slightest.
I think Zuma is a Christian because he says he is. No judgement needed on my part. You also seem to be forgetting the part of Christian belief that talks of the forgiveness of sins. The Christian god doesn't give a tinker's cuss about your actions, as long as you repent in time. Beg and grovel for forgiveness just before you die, and you go to heaven. Lead a blameless and pure life, but aren't Christian? Burn in hell for all eternity.
One more point: I can judge people any way I like, because I'm not a Christian. Christians, on the other hand, aren't supposed to judge anyone at all.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.