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16th December 2018, 02:14 PM | #641 |
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So you don't have the faintest idea who approves Bills for passing in Parliament in your dream cloud cuckoo land world? In the real world, we do know what happens. It is all documented and in the public domain, right down to Hansard record and the signature on the original approved Bill. Some of this on this thread have even been part of the process. Some here have probably even prepared and written Legislation, and Subordinate Legislation, advised Ministers and not some frootloop invisible "The Crown" Cookie Monster that you adhere to. Norm |
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16th December 2018, 02:20 PM | #642 |
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16th December 2018, 02:23 PM | #643 |
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16th December 2018, 02:46 PM | #644 |
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16th December 2018, 04:58 PM | #645 |
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16th December 2018, 05:34 PM | #646 |
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Bills submitted for First Reading usually arise from legislative committees of the various ministries and have an accompanying file. These bills are then read in the House, and debated (the reading nowadays is generally accomplished by distributing copies to all MPs) and the debates are recorded in Hansard and often televised on CSPAN. The bill then goes to Committee for public consultation and input from the Opposition. This is public and it's all recorded. Then it goes to the House where it was proposed for a vote - if it's passed it goes to the Senate for review, comments and revisions (if it was proposed in the Commons, reverse this if the bill originated in the Senate). Then it's voted on. Again this is all public and recorded. Once a Bill gets past the Senate it goes back to the Commons who vote on the Bill to verify that any revisions passed by the Senate still meet the legislative intent of the originator, and then the final form of the Bill is entered into Hansard and voted on. Again this is all public info. You can go and watch the entire process and you can even give input in the public hearing phase.
Private member bills are a little different, but follow the same process. The public still gets input. And since it stopped being a requirement to get Parliamentary approval for divorces, you can have input on any bill before Parliament. Any of them. Absolutely every bill that becomes law gets "read" into Hansard twice -once on initial reading and again just before being voted on. Then it's on to the Governor General to receive Royal Assent. Then it's printed in the Canada Gazette.
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Letters sent to a government department are sent to the Minister's Correspondence Unit of that department. They send it to the part of the department that can best answer the question you pose, that section gets the relevant information and either drafts a response for the Minister to sign, or provides information to the MCU to draft the response. The Minister signs it and again the response is sent to you.
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It is only simple for the secret consultation with HMTQ to happen in your mind. |
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16th December 2018, 05:53 PM | #647 |
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I've read many quotes from Hansard, so yes, I already knew it is basically the transcript of what is said in Parliament.
You haven't answered the question. Regardless of my bad grammar or syntax, how is a private conversation between a bill proposer and The Crown going to be in any official record? |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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16th December 2018, 05:56 PM | #648 |
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16th December 2018, 06:03 PM | #649 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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16th December 2018, 06:09 PM | #650 |
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It's implausible because every "bill proposer" decade after decade, century after century, would have to be instructed in the procedure for doing so, but none of them has ever complained about it to the public or otherwise revealed the process to the public. I'll see your Voltaire and raise you a Franklin: "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead." |
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16th December 2018, 06:41 PM | #651 |
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Why should anyone complain or 'reveal' the process? Everybody knows what the rules are going in. And they're all on the same team.
There's no big secret here. Would you suggest nothing in gov't ever happens discreetly? That Franklin quote referes to secrets like "Joe is having an affair with Mary." Unless you believe there's no such thing as 'top secret' projects and clearances. ETA: Gov'ts love people to think secrets can't be kept, so the public always (mistakenly) thinks it's well informed. "People who don't read the papers are uninformed. People who do read the papers are misinformed." |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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16th December 2018, 07:10 PM | #652 |
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16th December 2018, 07:32 PM | #653 |
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16th December 2018, 08:40 PM | #654 |
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The Crown, as you know, is ill-defined and can mean various things in different contexts. What I mean by the term is basically the Royal Family plus its advisors and staff. We agree the Queen doesn't personally supervise all this stuff. So I would suggest the proposers of a bill would communicate with someone on the RF's staff.
No one has explained why the scenario I described is impossible, or even improbable. It's a very simple and effective way to ensure Royal Assent is never refused. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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16th December 2018, 09:26 PM | #655 |
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Actually, the Crown is well defined. You just don't like or accept the definition, or alter it to suit your conjecture. I will leave aside the obvious fact that Great Britain no longer has a Legal say in what Canada legislates, and that you are not now walking away from your nebulous "The Crown" and you are back to square one and the Queen, with other unnamed Royals now being thrown in for flavour. Hereinafter to be called "The Royals" As already noted, the Queen and the advisors of "The Royals" probably do not even know what Legislation is being contemplated in Canada and probably don't care anyway. They more than likely have more important things to do than worry about what is happening in Canada (or Australia, or New Zealand, or anywhere else that is part of the Commonwealth)* What makes you think that "The Royals" gives a damn about what is happening in Canada?
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Your scenario is only plausible if you think that there is a huge conspiracy by "The Royals" to secretly, and implausibly control the Laws of Canada. Tell us all here, what makes Canada so important to "The Royals"? Norm *You know, a little scuffle called Brexit. |
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16th December 2018, 10:17 PM | #656 |
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16th December 2018, 10:44 PM | #657 |
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Here's what you (fromdownunder) said:
"I am interested in who you think The Crown actually is in this case as the term as it is used legally is an abstract and changeable concept." Here's what Wiki says: Legally ill-defined, the term has different meanings depending on context. Now you say: "Actually, the Crown is well defined." I merely outlined a very simple way to ensure RA is 'rubber stamped'. Whatever the royals may think of Canada doesn't negate that. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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16th December 2018, 10:46 PM | #658 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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16th December 2018, 11:21 PM | #659 |
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16th December 2018, 11:26 PM | #660 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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16th December 2018, 11:29 PM | #661 |
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16th December 2018, 11:39 PM | #662 |
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You know you still haven't told us what happens when the Queen is replaced by the next-in-line, more than likely a King. Because the exact text of the Canadian constitution puts all the authority you so pointlessly blither about in the control of "the Queen" very specifically. VERY specifically, in black and white. So should there be a King on the throne, clearly, according to your reading of the constitution, he will have precisely zero authority over Canada, and that complete loss of authority starts the moment immediately after the Queen drops dead.
And Canada's new head of state is...nobody, in that situation. The governor general reports to (you guessed it!) the Queen, not a King. Says so in the constitution. So he's representing nobody, and has no consequent power. And since there is no head of state, no laws can be signed. Canada's legal and parliamentary system will grind to a halt! What to do! What to do! Don't you agree, IB? And how does Canada get itself out of this ditch of despond? And please don't come up with some malarkey like "they really mean Monarch and not the Queen specifically". That's not in the text, so it isn't true. You need to think of another solution. And it had better be comprehensive, because "Dunno" and "That's not what I'm talking about" is unacceptable. This is precisely what you have raised. So support your argument. Go. |
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16th December 2018, 11:50 PM | #663 |
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The crown has no input whatsoever on the contents of a bill that goes through Canadian parliament. By choice, they simply rubber stamp any bill that passes through both houses.
Your conspiracy theory is nonsense. There are a lot of politicians who are braver than you and if you are willing to "expose the conspiracy" then why wouldn't a politician seek to make a name for himself by doing the same? |
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16th December 2018, 11:57 PM | #664 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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17th December 2018, 12:02 AM | #665 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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17th December 2018, 12:13 AM | #666 |
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If you must really be pedantic then I say that the odds that there is any truth to your theory are negligible.
It is more likely that major corporations offer inducements to politicians to produce favourable legislation but even then, whistle blowers appear from time to time to expose the corruption. The idea that nobody would dare to blow the whistle on the Queen is ridiculous. |
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17th December 2018, 12:28 AM | #667 |
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Let's see if we can all agree on one tiny piece of reality.
The written Constitution is judicable while the Conventions are not. Do you agree or disagree with that statement? Anybody? |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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17th December 2018, 12:39 AM | #668 |
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17th December 2018, 01:07 AM | #669 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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17th December 2018, 01:09 AM | #670 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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17th December 2018, 01:16 AM | #671 |
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17th December 2018, 01:18 AM | #672 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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17th December 2018, 01:37 AM | #673 |
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What you say about inducements does happen. But that does not preclude the scenario I described.
That the Queen, Crown, whatever, has the legal authority to refuse RA is not a secret. There's nothing to blow the whistle about. So why wouldn't bill proposers ensure their bill would pass (ETA: if it passes the House) by getting informal pre-approval? Nobody wants to have a public dispute about RA. The proposers want to avoid that because they want their bill passed and they know it can be refused. The monarchy wants to avoid that because it wants to keep up their 'we rubber stamp everything' image. |
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17th December 2018, 01:48 AM | #674 |
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17th December 2018, 01:59 AM | #675 |
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17th December 2018, 02:16 AM | #676 |
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17th December 2018, 02:39 AM | #677 |
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17th December 2018, 02:49 AM | #678 |
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To Itchy Boy. I am Scottish. I have therefore been a subject of Her Majesty Elizabeth I (not the II of Scotland or the UK!) all my life. In that time, apart from annoying my life when her sundry offspring spend millions on getting married, she has had the square root of zero effect on my life and of the rest of the people in the UK. Power in the UK resides in the Crown in Parliament, in other words the Queen's powers are exercised by the Prime Minister and the Cabinet government with the assent of MPs in the Commons and the Lords in the Upper House. I imagine her influence, if any, in the Commonwealth realms is even less. You really are flogging a dead horse here mate.
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17th December 2018, 02:49 AM | #679 |
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If you are really interested in legal technicalities, Australia's constitution is actually an act of the British Parliament known as "The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act" of which section 9 is the constitution proper.
Section 2 says, "The provisions of this Act referring to the Queen shall extend to Her Majesty’s heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom". I will leave it up to you to research the Canadian equivalent. |
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17th December 2018, 02:50 AM | #680 |
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This thread is hilarious.
How long do we think it will go on for? I suppose it depends on how long Itchy Boy is prepared to keep going, so what's the over/under for a Continuation thread? |
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