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18th December 2018, 07:38 PM | #761 |
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18th December 2018, 07:43 PM | #762 |
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I've repeatedly said the use of the monarch's power can neither be proven nor disproven because if it is exercised, it is under the Conventions.
The only argument to suggest (not prove) the monarch uses the powers it legally has, is a common sense notion that people with immense power do in fact use it. People here disagree. They think people or organizations who have supreme legal authority over other people or organizations just lay back and do what they're told. |
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18th December 2018, 07:47 PM | #763 |
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18th December 2018, 08:00 PM | #764 |
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18th December 2018, 08:02 PM | #765 |
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Government announces intention to do so, setting out the reasons it is necessary.
New constitution is drafted with consultation with the major stakeholders (Provinces, First Nations, general public). New constitution is approved. Remaking legislation is updated to remove the monarch, replacing with the title of the new head of state. My military unit reverts to its previous title of Canadian Field Artillery. |
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18th December 2018, 08:12 PM | #766 |
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Right. You have no evidence. None whatsoever. You have nothing but "what if". And, I note, now a "yes but". So like I said, the world where the queen does have the power and uses it secretly is indistinguishable from the world where she has the power and has never used it.
In this very specific instance, yes. Because there is no evidence that anything is otherwise. No-one is interested in "but it might be". We want to know how the world is, not how it might be. And that means positive evidence for claims. Furthermore, no-one is suggesting the general case as you put it - that "people and organisations" with power don't exercise it. We're talking about one specific person and/or organisation - Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II and the British Monarchy. If the Queen were exercising her power in the way that you describe, there would be evidence. There would be a paper trail. How many people do you think would need to be keeping this secret? How many people are actively covering this up? How many people would need to be in on the conspiracy? |
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18th December 2018, 08:24 PM | #767 |
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This is just a whole load of "who shot John?"
I'm not suggesting that a backbencher sprouts a conspiracy theory like yours. They would be taken as seriously as you are if they did. If the Queen was really directing the contents of bills like you say then the simplest way to expose this would be for the Prime Minister to run a bill through Parliament that the Queen objects to. She would then be be in the awkward position of having to choose between rubber stamping a bill she has previously objected to or vetoing it and giving the game away. It would be a win for the PM either way. Either the Queen's authority has been compromised or the PM gets lots of favourable publicity for standing up to that unelected overseas entity. This is worth lots of votes for him. ETA In case you try to argue that the GG would do such a thing, remember that the GG is the PM's pick and does his bidding. Very rarely has a GG invervened in parliamentary affairs and it has always been very controversial when it happens. |
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18th December 2018, 08:44 PM | #768 |
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"If it has happened, there would be some observable evidence that it has happened."
Not necessarily. You might ask the Native Indians what harm has been caused. That's the only thing we have to compare to. A 'before' and 'after'. In the 'after' the white people's society just continued pretty much the same ways they did in England and France. So no obvious, visible harm was done - to the white people. Then again, it depends what you call 'harm'. An example of what I would call 'harm' is the recent Ontario change that allows the police to stop you for a breathalyzer, without have to have any suspicion that you're intoxicated. (This has nothing to do with the Queen directly - it's just an example of what I consider 'harm' that many would not consider to be harm.) What is the harm in the above law change? Previously, you could go about your business without police intrusion, unless there was a reasonable suspicion that the law was being broken. Now you can be stopped anytime for any reason. Many non thinkers will welcome this change, believing it will make the roads safer, not taking into account the major loss of freedom. In general, our freedoms are being eroded bit by bit over a long period of time so it's not so noticeable. There was a time where you could find yourself a patch of land here and build a cabin, start a farm. You didn't need anyone's permission. That freedom is long gone. If you wanted to escape formal society and go live in the woods, you can't do it legally anymore. Each generation grows up with a lesser degree of freedom than the previous generation, and because only a little freedom is lost each generation, nobody notices. Until it's too late. In some indirect, obscure, probably unprovable way, the monarchy has to be responsible for that because that condition only came about after the takeover of Canada. If the monarchy was not the cause of loss of freedom, they also didn't object or intervene to preserve freedoms. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 08:53 PM | #769 |
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Itch, my boy, you've
really got to try harder not to be so
BORING. |
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18th December 2018, 08:54 PM | #770 |
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IF the Queen continues to refuse RA, then her authority hasn't been compromised. Nor does vetoing the bill give any game away because she has the express legal authority to do so.
And I've explained twice now what the narrative would be if it became public that bills were submitted for pre-approval. And I've explained the narrative would not be a lie. Not to mention the fact that the Queen has a lot of public support in Canada, so someone 'standing up' to the Queen isn't going to rock the boat much. The monarchy would easily whether the storm. And RA would remain intact. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 09:03 PM | #771 |
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We've already covered why there would be no paper trail. The Conventions and everything that happens under them is word of mouth.
And I've explained ad nauseum now that there's no big secret. There's no big cover up. The Conventions, being uncodified, can be whatever they say they are. The rules are not written, so they can't be examined. Just because an unwritten rule is not expressly made public does not make it a big secret that, if exposed, would shock the world. I've explained why, if pre-approval were exposed, there would be no serious consequences. And again, I'm not claiming pre-approval exists because there's no paper trail. I'm just demonstrating how easy it is to arrange for RA to appear to be 'rubber stamped'. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 09:12 PM | #772 |
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Oh, my. I know it's not Canada, but Victoria (Australia) has had random breath testing since 1977, and now has moved down to having one of the lowest rates of Alcohol related road deaths in the Western World, and our world has not come to an end. I think I much prefer to know that the chance of being hit and killed by a random drunk driver is much lower than it used to be.
And I do note that this has nothing to do with your hypothesis. You have just provided more evidence for one of my points by attempting to change the topic into something which has nothing to do with your hypothesis. But then, the rest of us already knew that this is the sort of thing that CT'ists have to do because they have nothing else. Norm |
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18th December 2018, 09:13 PM | #773 |
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If, in your opinion, the royal family is the exception to the 'people use their power' rule, then so be it.
In my view, a family that possesses the level of power the British royal family does will never willingly give it up and they will never stop using it to their advantage. More sensible, from their point of view would be to find ways to obscure their true power and exercise it from behind the scene as they do with the Conventions. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 09:17 PM | #774 |
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It was an aside, not a change of topic. I was trying to point out the creeping erosion of freedoms, which I said went unnoticed by the public.
And that the monarchy was at least partially responsible for that. ETA: Somewhere down the line the next step will be where authorities will no longer require a warrant or any suspicion to come in and search your home. The monarchy may or may not be directing these actions, but at the very least, they allow them to happen. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 09:24 PM | #775 |
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18th December 2018, 09:26 PM | #776 |
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18th December 2018, 09:33 PM | #777 |
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This has been going on for 20 pages?
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18th December 2018, 09:42 PM | #778 |
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No. I'm suggesting random breath tests, no matter how justified they may be, are an erosion of your freedom to go about your business without being treated like a criminal or suspect. Isn't that one of the main tenants of 'freedom and democracy' we hear so much about?
One erosion, or a few little ones go unnoticed, or are accepted by the 'justification'. Then when that's been forgotten, another little erosion takes place. Every freedom taken away has been 'justified'. In the past, you could just start a business without anyone's permission. Now you need a licence - permission from the gov't. I'm not sure what the justification for that was, but they made one up and people bought it. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 09:45 PM | #779 |
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18th December 2018, 09:49 PM | #780 |
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Alternatively, perhaps that sort of thing happened after the takeover of Canada because that sort of thing was happening everywhere at that time. Can you really not think of any alternative explanations? That shows a tremendous lack of imagination on your part.
Then what the hell is your problem? Why are you so concerned? Why not just let her continue doing whatever it is she's doing? As if you could do anything to stop it anyway. |
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18th December 2018, 10:04 PM | #781 |
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What past is this? Buying and selling goods has been a regulated business in Canada since the first French settlements. Beer brewing has been regulated in Europe and The Americas since the Middle Ages if you weren't just drinking it yourself. Restaurants, hotels, pubs, green grocers, etc they have been licensed as long as there has been some form of central government.
There have been large number of reasons for regulations - protection of resources - that stupid Bavarian beer law was set up to guarantee that wheat and rye would be used for bread, not beer. Doctors and lawyers were licensed so that they had to meet minimum standards of training so as to minimize the chances of harming the public. The lists go on. The role of government is to collectively go what the people need to do to make the society they want function and to protect its members - sometimes from themselves, sometimes from internal threats and sometimes from external threats. |
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18th December 2018, 10:06 PM | #782 |
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Not all businesses require a licence or permit with the City of Toronto. Examples include:
https://www.toronto.ca/business-econ...nce-or-permit/ Norm |
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18th December 2018, 10:25 PM | #783 |
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Would be interesting to know how often the average canadian citizen thinks about their Queen.
My bet is on "pretty much never". |
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18th December 2018, 10:27 PM | #784 |
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Yes, it was happening everywhere because the few at the top always want control of the masses.
As populations grew, it became more and more inefficient to control the masses by the old methods of whips, chains, and general terror. Punishment temporarily puts a stop to undesirable behaviour but does not permanently reduce the victim's tendency to indulge in it. To control large populations, some degree of public consent is required. Noam Chomsky wrote a book about 'Manufacturing Consent' that explains in part how it's done. I have no choice but to let them continue whatever they're doing. The reason for this thread was to show that reality and what most people perceive as reality are not always the same thing. And that people will fight tooth and nail to protect and preserve their perception of reality despite any and all contradicting facts and logic. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 10:32 PM | #785 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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18th December 2018, 10:33 PM | #786 |
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18th December 2018, 10:33 PM | #787 |
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This guy is not for reals, right? I mean, he can't be. This is a joke?
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18th December 2018, 10:47 PM | #788 |
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18th December 2018, 11:06 PM | #789 |
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You're quite right. I stand corrected.
What I was poorly trying to get across is that one way or another you require permission for things you didn't before before the requirement was written into law. I call that erosion. But that's only one avenue of erosion. I must wear my seatbelt in the car or pay a penalty. Trivial as it may be, it's another micro erosion of my freedom. What is the justification for that? Or drug laws. Do I not own my own body and have the right to consume whatever I wish without risk of penalty? At one time that was true, but no longer. Anyone who doesn't see the long, slow erosion of our personal freedoms simply isn't looking. ETA: You have to 'register' your business if it is called anything but your own name. "John Smith" doesn't need to be registered, but "John Smith and Sons" does. Registration does not give you exclusivity to the name. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 11:22 PM | #790 |
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By "it might be possible" I assume you're referring to the use of power by the royals. Yes, I've shown how it might be possible and given the logical reason why it's probable, in my view.
Was it you who said you can't prove a negative? You can't prove they don't use the power. By the same token, Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence so I can't prove they do. What I originally intended to prove was simply that contrary to popular belief, the monarchy POSSESSES the power. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 11:29 PM | #791 |
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18th December 2018, 11:44 PM | #792 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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18th December 2018, 11:50 PM | #793 |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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18th December 2018, 11:55 PM | #794 |
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Having to wear a seatbelt = literal totalitarianism
Says the twelve year old mind. |
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18th December 2018, 11:55 PM | #795 |
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You sound like an American.
"Freedom" is a con. There is no such thing. You are as free as the government of the day says you are. If you want to go back to the Wild Wild West, there's nothing stopping you. Except the laws of temporal causality. And the Queen is probably behind those, too. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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18th December 2018, 11:57 PM | #796 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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19th December 2018, 12:02 AM | #797 |
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19th December 2018, 12:22 AM | #798 |
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Most posters kept maintaining that the Queen had no real power. Some still believe that.
Up until a few years ago, I believed it too. I would have argued much like people here have done. Circumstances led me to do some research on the subject and I came to realize that my perception of reality in this matter was false. I prefer to perceive reality as accurately as possible. |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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19th December 2018, 12:49 AM | #799 |
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I don't know if the Constitution says that. But many descriptions of the role of the monarch in Canada have words to that effect.
Wiki: (emphasis mine) "[...] thereby allowing the monarch to make sure that the government conducts itself in compliance with the Constitution. [...] executive authority remains vested in The Crown and is only entrusted by the sovereign to their government on behalf of the people, underlining the Crown's role in safeguarding the rights, freedoms, and democratic system of government of Canadians, [...] " |
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan |
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19th December 2018, 12:56 AM | #800 |
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You need to read peoples' arguments more carefully. They are not saying that she doesn't have power. Pretty much everyone in the thread has agreed that on paper, power rests with the monarchy. What people are saying is that she does not and can not exercise that power - that her power is purely theoretical. And you have been given reasons why that is the case that go back to the 1600s. Yet you persist in your belief that the Queen is actively exercising that power to "erode" your so-called "freedoms" despite there being zero evidence that this is the case.
So I ask again. Why are you here, trying to convince us of your case? What's in it for you? |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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