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6th December 2018, 10:26 AM | #81 |
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6th December 2018, 11:16 AM | #82 |
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If that was the case how do you explain that Carolyn Mulroney was not confirmed as leader of the Ontario PC party, given that her father had been PM?
And of course if your argument is that loyalty to the Crown is a determining factor in becoming politically powerful in Canada, I need you to explain Lucien Bouchard, Leader of the opposition and head of a separatist party, and the various separatist leaders of the province of Quebec. While the monarch can potentially exercise great power in theory, in practice the exercise of that power has been greatly restricted by custom to the point where the individual exercising regal or vice-regal powers is little more than a figurehead and that great weight of custom has effectively restricted said powers to the point where the PM is the de facto head of state, but not the de jure. |
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6th December 2018, 11:49 AM | #83 |
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@ Ziggurat I've backed my claims with clear proof.
All you've provided is your own words with nothing to back them. Until you can show something substantial to back your claims, I don't see the point in responding to you. Cheers |
6th December 2018, 11:51 AM | #84 |
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6th December 2018, 12:11 PM | #85 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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6th December 2018, 12:53 PM | #86 |
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There is if the Canadians stop respecting her authority.
Really, the way the Commonwealth is set up, the Monarch's authority to govern derives entirely from the consent of the governed. The moment Canadians stop consenting, the Queen loses all authority and all enforcement power. The moment she tries to impose her will on Canada's elected officials, the constitution goes out the window and she loses all power. |
6th December 2018, 01:45 PM | #87 |
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1. You won't ever see Bouchard as PM. Leader of the opposition, especially provincial, is not up that high in the pyramid. He doesn't have enough power to do much.
2. 'Custom' is NEVER going to restrict real power. People who have had real power and wealth for generations like the royal family are not going to simply give that up because of custom, or because they were politely asked to give up their power. Still no commenter has offered anything but their own words to show that the Queen is merely a figurehead. What's it going to take for you people to see what's right before your eyes? |
6th December 2018, 01:56 PM | #88 |
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6th December 2018, 01:57 PM | #89 |
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6th December 2018, 02:10 PM | #90 |
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So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
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6th December 2018, 02:11 PM | #91 |
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Carolyn Mulrony's political career is still in early stages. Being the offspring of a former PM doesn't guarantee you'll get the job. But what the hell did Justin do to deserve to become PM? Absolutely nothing, as far as I know.
It won't surprise me in the least if Carolyn becomes the first female PM a few election cycles from now. |
6th December 2018, 02:13 PM | #92 |
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6th December 2018, 02:16 PM | #93 |
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6th December 2018, 02:17 PM | #94 |
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6th December 2018, 02:19 PM | #95 |
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Doesn't really explain, Obama, Reagan, Carter, Trump or Clinton. None of them came from political bloodlines. There are a few Senators perhaps where politics is a family business and the Kennedy family is worth mentioning. When you look at our political class though, family dynasties are hardly the norm.
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6th December 2018, 02:21 PM | #96 |
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What exactly do you expect would happen if, tomorrow, Trudeau announced on Canadian television that the queen could do one and that from now on power will be seen to derive from the will of the people (or they were going to vote in a president, or whatever it might be)?
The new aircraft carrier isn't actually in service until 2020, so we'd probably have to wait till then to actually indulge in the most embarassing invasion since the Swiss last accidentally invaded Liechtenstein. |
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6th December 2018, 02:21 PM | #97 |
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6th December 2018, 02:22 PM | #98 |
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6th December 2018, 02:27 PM | #99 |
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If the scenario you describe ever comes about, we'll see what happens.
Meantime, do you have anything with the force of law that affects Articles #9 and #15? That's all that matters here. That is the only thing that would make a valid argument against my original claim. |
6th December 2018, 02:33 PM | #100 |
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6th December 2018, 02:38 PM | #101 |
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6th December 2018, 03:09 PM | #102 |
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I'm not sure what "the force of law" means here. As far as I'm concerned, "the force of law" isn't a thing. Compliance with a law is a thing. Enforcement of a law is a thing. But laws on paper are just words. They only carry the weight that the governed and the government actually put on them.
In the US, the federal prohibitions on marijuana have "the force of law", but several states have elected to ignore them, and the federal government has declined to enforce them over the states' objections. The law is there, but it is subordinate to the willingness of the people to go along with it. Same with the US federal rules on immigration, which have "the force of law", but which are ignored or abrogated by several states. Compared to the states' refusal to comply, and the government's unwillingness to enforce, the "force of law" is essentially meaningless. And the same also with the Queen's authority to command the Canadian armed forces. It's written in the constitution with all the "force of law", but that turns out to be only as much force as the Canadians care to give it. If they decide to ignore the Queen's commands, nothing on that piece of paper can force them to comply. If the Queen wanted to enforce the law, she'd have to do it with actual force, not the "force of law". Please tell me you understand that laws are not magic spells that bind the citizenry to compliance against their will. |
6th December 2018, 03:30 PM | #103 |
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I'll bet you a million pounds that, if it ever happens, there will not be British expiditionary force sailing out from Portsmouth to Newfoundland. No, two million pounds.
Quote:
The Australians had a vote and decided to keep the queen as their head of state. They decided to keep her, primarily, I think, for the reasons I outlined in post 41. Remarkably, the UK didn't call up the reserves for the imminnent invasion of Australia should they have decided to kick Liz out. The law can say what it likes. The political, social and logistical realities of waging war upon Canada to force all the mounties to put HRH on their caps absolutely trump any legislation. |
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6th December 2018, 05:09 PM | #104 |
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6th December 2018, 05:26 PM | #105 |
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Name of publication and date please. You don't have to go all Turabian Bibliographic on us. The name of the publication where these "some people" say this and month will do.
ETA: These some people are wrong. Obama's father was a Luo, a tribe on the shores of Lake Victoria and geographically separated from the seats of power in Kenya, Nairobi and Mombasa. Though Kenyan (unlike Ugandan) tribes don't really do royalty as such, the Kikuyu are the dominate tribe in politics and any "royal" blood would likely be found in that group. His mother is a dry hole when it comes to royalty as well. She was born in Wichita Kansas and later moved to Hawaii. You might have had something had she been a Hawaiian native as there are still descendants of their royal family alive today. |
6th December 2018, 05:46 PM | #106 |
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6th December 2018, 05:47 PM | #107 |
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6th December 2018, 05:59 PM | #108 |
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You CLEARLY have no idea about how this works, the history of how it got there, and any of the rest of your own constitution.
The Canadian government CANNOT arbitrarily change the constitution. It has to be by referendum. Surely you would know this if you had the first inkling. So the wording for that stands AS WRITTEN. And the wording in the same document AS WRITTEN refers specifically to "the Queen". So when Charles becomes king (and unless he undergoes a gender-change), the Canadian constitution AS WRITTEN no longer applies. That is exactly the same argument you are using for assigning extraordinary powers to the Queen. Those powers are supposedly there AS WRITTEN. But now you are arguing that "everyone knows" the wording for "the Queen" actually means "the monarch". That is, the AS WRITTEN wording can be interpreted in other ways, and that it has a different application IN PRACTICE. Well, duh! I think a number of us here have been trying to tell you exactly that about the constitutional reserve powers of the monarch. Perhaps you might care to go study law? Try specialising in constitutional law. A number of folks on this forum have already done this. Barack Obama was a professor of constitutional law. You have your work cut out for you. Go!
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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6th December 2018, 07:02 PM | #109 |
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If something's on the books, it has the force of law. It does not lose the force of law just because it is not enforced. It still CAN be enforced at any time.
The Constitution is not just 'law'. It is the foundational legal document that defines what Canada is. If the Queen and the gov't came to loggerheads - say, about whether to send Canadian troops to some war or not, the gov't would have to take the Queen to court. But they would never do that because the Constitution clearly states the Queen is in control of the Canadian military. The gov't has no case to begin with. The only way the gov't could even have a case is if something exists that has the force of law and that directly affects Article #15. No such thing exists. That's why nobody here has been able to produce anything to show that the Queen is just a figurehead. Posters here have proclaimed that the Constitution is full of language that 'clearly defines the Queen's role as titular'. I'm still waiting for someone to provide a single example. |
6th December 2018, 07:08 PM | #110 |
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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6th December 2018, 07:08 PM | #111 |
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6th December 2018, 07:15 PM | #112 |
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But let's go with the "law as written" stuff. Here's some "fun" Canadian laws. I wonder if these will also raise your ire.
1. In BC it’s illegal to kill a Sasquatch. 2. In Vancouver it was illegal to sell a stove on a Wednesday from 1947 to 1986. 3. It's illegal to own more than 4 pet rats at a time in Port Coquitlam. 4. In Oak Bay you could be fined $100 if you parrot talks to loud. 5. In Victoria, street entertainers aren't allowed to give kids balloon animals. 6. Its illegal for someone under the age of 15 to be outside without a guardian between the hours of 12am and 6am in St. Paul, Alberta. 7. Current law in Alberta states that it is against the law to paint a wooden ladder. 8. In Calgary, it is illegal to buy or sell non-prescription contact lenses at costume shops. 9. In Alberta it’s illegal to set fire to the leg of a wooden-legged man. 10. Rails to tie horses must be provided by businesses in Alberta. 11. In Fort Qu’Appelle, Saskatchewan it’s illegal to walk down the main street with untied shoes. 12. It's Illegal to whistle in Petrolia, Ontario. According to the town's website, "Yelling, shouting, hooting, whistling or singing is prohibited at all times." 13. It's illegal to attach a siren to your bike in Sudbury. 14. In Toronto, it is illegal to swear in a public park. 15. If you don’t pay your hotel bill in Ontario, the hotel can legally sell your horse. 16. In Oshawa, it is against the law to climb a tree. 17. Purple garage doors are against the law in Kanata, Ontario. 18. Don't try getting all fancy on your bike in Ottawa because taking your feet of the pedals while riding is illegal. 19. Don't swear at your mother in public in Toronto...you could get arrested. 20. It is against the law to eat ice cream on Bank Street on a Sunday while in Ottawa. 21. In Ontario, it’s illegal to drive your sleigh on the highway without at least two bells attached to the harness of your horse. 22. In Etobicoke, Ontario it’s illegal to have more than 3.5 inches of water in a bathtub. 23. In Uxbridge, Ontario it’s illegal to have an Internet connection faster than 56K. 24. You could be arrested if you drag a dead horse down Toronto’s Yonge Street on Sundays. 25. In Quebec City its illegal to swear in French. 26. In Quebec it is illegal to impersonate a foreigner. 27. In Beaconsfield, Quebec you are breaking the law if you have more then two colours of paint on your house. 28. In Fredericton it is against the law to wear a snake, or carry a pet lizard in public. 29. Unhinging somebody’s front gate is a crime in Wolfville, Nova Scotia. 30. It is against the law for Taxi drivers in Halifax to wear shorts or t-shirts. 31. In Charlottetown, it’s illegal to intentionally ring any doorbell or knock at any door in order to disrupt, disturb, or annoy any person in his home or place of work. 32. According to current Canadian law "Everyone commits an offense who…makes, prints, publishes, distributes, sells or has in his possession for the purpose of publication, distribution or circulation a crime comic." 33. In Canada it is illegal to challenge someone to a duel or accept an invitation to a duel. 34. Do not try to scare the Queen in Canada, unless you want to be arrested. 35. It is illegal to remove a band aid in public in Canada 36. “Offending a place with a bad smell” is illegal under the criminal code in all of Canada. https://www.narcity.com/ca/bc/vancou...sted-in-canada |
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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6th December 2018, 07:20 PM | #113 |
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Let's not get off track on the gender thing or constitutional amendments.
Until the Queen dies, the Constitution is very much in effect, word for word and that's all we're concerned with in this thread. So I'm still waiting for something concrete that affects Articles #9 and #15. I've already explained that anything that falls under 'Constitutional Convention' is not enforceable by the courts. Above, see my example regarding sending troops to war. |
6th December 2018, 07:23 PM | #114 |
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6th December 2018, 07:24 PM | #115 |
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You haven't taken a word of this on board, have you. Not learned a thing.
Is this deliberate, by any chance? |
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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6th December 2018, 07:29 PM | #116 |
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Norman, I refer you to post #25. You said, "And in just about all respects, it [Constitution] clearly defines just how titular the Queen's role is in Canadian law."
I've asked a few times now for samples. Quotes from the Constitution. Why haven't you produced even one? |
6th December 2018, 07:30 PM | #117 |
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6th December 2018, 07:34 PM | #118 |
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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6th December 2018, 07:37 PM | #119 |
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6th December 2018, 07:44 PM | #120 |
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